Civic break down
 

Car broke down last night near home. At cold start-up (60*) at the airport it revved unusually high (nearly 2000 rpms for a few seconds before coming down to normal). It ran quite normally for 20 miles, and then a hesitancy in engine response to the throttle returned. Alternator was connected and running. Battery power during EOC would settle between 12.3 and 11.8 volts depending on how long the glide was. A lurching ugly hesitancy emerged before the fail. When it failed it just gurgled itself into a slow die. Even a rolling bump start only acted as breaking. When it briefly sparked up a couple times, it struggled to sustain an idle even though it was already warmed-up. Then it died again for good. All fluids are fine. Car can still shift into gear and be pushed when in neutral or with clutch. Starter runs full tilt. No smell of fuel. No leaking fluids under the car. I was planning to follow advice and buy a pressure gauge today and test the fuel pump. I also am wondering about other parts: electrical components within the distributor? the cambelt? are those credible possibilities?

I'm off to the stores before work, during lunch, and after work... any advice greatly appreciated.

j

Bummer! Fuel pump is my first guess.

No engine light?

The check engine light did not come on.

Do you have voltage at the fuel pump while cranking?

Can you read codes from your car?

Does it start again when cold?

My guess is the distributor, specifically the igniter.

It does not start when cold. I have not tried reading codes from the ECU. I expect I do have voltage while cranking because I can now smell gas inside the car after I try the ignition (but not in engine bay). So I think it is powering, though I know that's not a very good "test". But I'm very interested in what you might be driving at... what are failures you suspect?

[EDIT: I did a test of the fuel pump recommended in the Honda Service Manual. When I turn the key to the run position, I can feel and hear the fuel pump charge-up for 2 seconds then shut off normally.]

I found a worker at my Pep Boys who works on these Hondas a lot. He could describe the parts accurately from memory. Thinks my symptoms are more like a failure of the ignition control module in the distributor housing. Is that what you mean?

[EDIT: I solved the following problem by cranking the engine with the starter to turn the rotor until the screw was lined-up.] I am trying to test the ignition control module right now, considering replacing it. But I cannot get to the ignition control module yet. The attached photo is of the distributor with the cap off. You can see the Distributor Rotor. There is a screw to remove this rotor so I can remove the leak cover, but it is obscured by the leak cover right now. How do I turn the rotor (the round black plastic piece in the photo) so that the screw becomes accessible? Do I have to break the leak cover?

P1399 (trouble code)
 

Sorry for being novice, but I had to figure out how to use the Ultra Gauge for trouble codes. It lists a "pending" trouble code P1399. The Honda Service Manual does not seem to have a ref for this code. A few online sources say this is an ignition system or misfire code. Seems to suggest the distributor again, not likely the fuel pump, no?

Bummer. I hope you can get it up and running again soon.

Fuel pump seems to work, at least it gets power to do the normal priming when the key is switched to the "run" position. And I just finished a fuel filter change and replacing the "igniter" a.k.a. the ignition control module a.k.a. the ICM. No dice. No change. Same symptoms. Help.

civic breakdown
 

Try tapping on idle air control valve located below throttle body while cranking engine. Also try to determine if spark is present at spark plugs by pulling one and grounding it against valve cover,also while cranking.
GOOD LUCK I work at a Honda dealership and this is the advice of 2 techs....
Honfit (Sean)

Sorry, I don't know Hondas. The initial 2000 rpm surge sounds like the engine ran lean. Have you pulled the sparkplugs and examined them? Have you run a compression test on each cylinder?

I hope you can fix it without it getting as expensive as I'm thinking it might be.

I see you car has the same hair brained design with the ignition module and coil inside the distributor as mine. :P (Heat shortens the life of these things)

It seems as the pump is working(Do you smell gas at the tail pipe after an attempted start?)

(And you actually checked for spark right?)

With a brand new module your next suspects are: signal from the ECU to the module, and the ignition coil. (I guess B+ and ground to the module as well)

Lack of signal can be caused by bad cam angle sensors(or their wiring)

Thanks guys... I have my new list of things to check... this time I want to follow method correctly. I knew to test for power and continuity at the ICM before installing. But I got impatient last night, in the dark, because I needed the car this morning. So I skipped that testing. Gotta slow down and test more possibilities before deciding. AND ... thanks for the tips.

Well, I have now! I pulled the #1 plug to test it. It was so ugly that I pulled the others to have a look. They were all awful. To large a gap, burnt, grey and and dark browns. I decided they needed replacing anyway. Put new single-platinum plugs in, and it fired right up instantly.

I am running the car with a WAI and with 2* ignition timing advance. These were old plugs anyway. Their age and the mods maybe killed the plugs off?

I'm learning, but I'm still not much of a mechanic. At least now I understand my distributor better, have done the fuel filter change, and have done a plug change... I also became familiar with testing the fuel pump and such. I spent $90 on an ICM I may not have needed (I don't know for certain because I never actually tested the old one). Well, if they are both working... I guess I have a back-up in case one burns, and they apparently do on these Hondas.

A plus is also that I did not take it to a shop and get charged who knows how much for stuff I did not have need, I guess.

Congrats ! Now that you have a new igniter you may be needing a coil soon as it may have been stressed by trying to fire those old plugs. If you pull the coil you may find discoloration/burn marks on it from trying to arc elsewhere.
-Honfit

check the timming see if belt slipped,i had this happen once,belt slipped couple teeth didn't damage anything ,but car didn't run.

Wow. I haven't heard of plugs making the car go bad so suddenly, but glad to hear you're up and running again!

I'm glad to see you you're tackling this on your own. But sometimes, when you're over your head you can simply take the car to a mechanic and have them troubleshoot the car. They typically charge me around $65 to diagnose a problem. I like to think I can fix just about anything and I have tackled many many issues on my cars over the years but if it's something that just puts me against the wall I take it in to get diagnosed.

Plugs! \o/

Something to consider: Were the plugs just old as shït, or is something wrong with your car that makes it destroy plugs?

Good advice SimonSells... I have never done that but it might have saved some time/effort. One limitation was that the car was dead in my driveway.

@ Ladogaboy: I know, right... all the guys I spoke with discounted that possibility if I brought it up, even when I was showing the dudes in the store the old plugs. BTW, spec of the spark plug gap is .35 but my gap tool showed as much as .54 on one or two! I should have monitored these more closely (live and learn).

@ honfit: Agreed, makes sense, and I know my way into the distributor quite comfortably now. So that test will be interesting to do... right after I attend to installing a water pressure regulator in my leaking house and getting the gas furnace back online! ;)

My Ultra Gauge consistently shows longterm trim 1.6% lean when the car is warm. And I advanced ignition timing 2 degrees to 14 BTDC. I'll be watching these new plugs to see how they hold up mile-by-mile. Next summer I want to have my Warm Air Intake adjustable, so when I see IAT go really high (130-140+ degrees) I can adjust it to draw cooler air. When I think back, my problems along these lines appeared late in the summer, after HOT days and the ignition timing advance.

I hope those weren't Bosch platinum plugs. The quality on those sucks, except for the really high-dollar ones that are hard to find anyway. For a Honda, NGK plugs are very good--or you can go with Bosch silver or copper plugs, their QC seems to be just fine. But the platinums with the little speck of Pt in the inner electrode? Bad stuff in my experience.

-soD

I'm starting to think there should be a third list, in addition to the ecomod and hypermiling lists, there should be one for maintenance and things to check when buying a used car.

The old ones were NGK and so are the replacements. I considered iridium, but was told those might tax my ignition system. The run "too hot" was the description. I played it safe.

That would be useful. But making it would be a bit of a job.

You can get various temperature ratings for spark plugs; they usually list them as "steps." Still, probably not worth doing the research and then paying the extra price for them.

That's where the make and model-specific forums come in. In this case, honda-tech is the place to go.

I turn to honda-tech.com too, partly at your suggestion, also made by TomO on various occasions. But on this problem... EM outpaced honda-tech in assessing and clarifying the problem with me. And I think that is a great development on this site.

:thumbup:to Ecomodder. :D

...especially if you want to feel like you're in a high-school boy's locker room...

-soD

:rolleyes: That's the truth! There are some level heads in there, but you have to sift through the mess to find them.

Thanks Honfit and other suggesting a coil check. The ignition problem began to return within a few hundred miles of installing the new plugs. And it was getting worse. I decided to test the coil (finally). The prescribed resistance test in the Honda Service Manual showed normal ranges. But I noticed that the distributor cap and the rotor no longer looked all that normal to me. Half the rotor's contact strip was burned brown to black. The inside of the distributor had that chalky-looking grey/white corrosion on the contacts. I changed the rotor, cap, and spark plug wires. Runs beautifully again.

I'm wondering now if a faulty MAP sensor could be contributing to all this? I got the DTC P0108 randomly two days ago. I reset to see if it was random or recurring. I have not gotten the CEL again, but the MAP sensor could be precipitating some of my poor running, acceleration, and FE problems associated with all this ignition trouble, no?

In my 5+ years as a Honda parts specialist,I have never sold a MAP sensor. That being said it still may be the culprit. I will consult with my techs and co-workers when I go to work this afternoon and further pick their minds. My wife and I were in 1000 Oaks several
weeks ago visiting my sister and her family-still recovering from Venice Beach and PC Highway culture/enviromental shock, where are you in relation ? Good luck.
-Sean

It ran beautifully to work today. I'm worried about the MAP sensor, though. Couldn't find a test for it. Seems people replace it when they get the P0108 DTC. Venice Beach. I've been there, of course. And the PCH runs within a quarter mile of my house. But I am way south in Orange County. Traffic on the PCH gets bad here too occasionally, but not as bad, as often.

I'd love to hear what the techs think...

james

The MAP sensor should not be able to affect the inside of the distributor. It sounds like you may have some kind of bad contact in your ignition system? Double- and triple-check the plugs and wires, cap and rotor.

If the stuff you saw in the cap was reddish-colored, I would tell you to get a new distributor. The "red dust of death" is a known failure mode for those...

-soD

James-
Several experienced techs confirmed that MAP sensors rarely go bad,but if
DTC P0108 recurs then consider replacement. Our dealership has only sold 2-3
this year for your civic ,if you don't count the returns from those that thought this would fix whatever was wrong with their car. Your replacement of tuneup parts was probably due anyway as part of routine maintenance every 30-60 k miles.As you probably know,one worn part puts stress on others in system and can cause them to fail.For example,worn or overgapped plugs WILL cause coil to seek path of least resistance and cause arcing inside distributor. I hope this helps and please keep us posted.
-Sean (Honfit)

Did you search for map sensor testing on youtube?

I found one that tests using a vacuum pump. Don't have that tool. Could buy one, I guess. Darn. :D

Sorry I didn't look over this thread Cal98Civic. A couple of suggestions.

1. At night when it is dark take a spray bottle with water in it and spray it over your ignition wires. Look carefully for any visible spark. If you see any replace the wires with new ones. Don't buy cheap stuff, the blue Bosch wires are good. Get wires made for the car if you see any spark in the dark with the wires dampened with the water mist. DO NOT GET TO CLOSE TO THE WIRES OR YOU MAY GET NAILED, A COUPLE OF FEET AWAY IS FINE.

2. Remove and clean all of your ground wires and your battery cable ends where they connect to the battery. The engine to chassis ground wire is especially important, as well as the condition of the battery cable ends and the battery posts. They may look good externally but still have hidden corrosion that can cause bad connections and serious voltage fluctuations.

3. Inspect the fuse box for corrosion or loose, burnt fuses. Probably not you problem but could contribute to unreliability.

4. Inspect for old cracked or broken vacuum lines and replace then if they are brittle from age and heat.

My biggest suspicion is the engine to chassis ground, the battery terminals, or bad plug wires. The original wires are numbered to the cylinders and possibly date coded. The huge plug gap would also cause problems with the plug wires if they have no bee recently replaced. If they are cheap wires then consider replacing them, but you do not need to throw parts at the problem and waste money. Might also check the fuel filter, but that usually gives symptoms of stumbling when under high loads. I used to like to take the filter out and blow through it to see what comes out. This way I could warn the customer about his choice of filling stations. If you do not have E10 fuel there you might try some fuel treatment to remove water from your fuel. It can really cause aggravating intermittent problems.

regards
Mech

Which ECU?
 

If you had my 1998 Civic DX 5 speed manual and needed a new ECU, as I do in my effort to resolve these ongoing running problems, would you get the 1996 Civic 5 speed manual ECU (Federal) or a 1997 Civic DX 5 speed manual ECU? I can get either, test it, and return it within 24hrs if it does not solve the problem. The cost is a mere $107... nearly 700 bucks less than the dealer quoted, 500 cheaper than online might have been.

I go to get one tomorrow, would love to have forum members' input first.

Many thanks in advance, guys.

james

BTW, I'm still considering the HX conversion, but this is a cheap way to get my daily driver back on the road ASAP (I hope it works).

Wow - so many replies !

I just skimmed over the thread, but i can see we have similar problems.

Here is my post :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...s-19654-3.html

I posted my problem at two other Honda forums, but after over a week had only one reply.
I have had more help from Ecomodder, specifically 'Old Mechanic'. ( thanks ! )