Commercially-produced rear wheel skirts
 

Unless you drive an American sedan from the 1950's, there seems to be a lack of commercially-produced rear wheel skirt kits. So after chatting about fuel economy with a buddy of mine who owns a local tool and die shop, we put our heads together on how to commercially produce kits and make them economically feasible. At his shop, we have the options of stamping/forming them out of metal (expensive but heavy-duty), or vacuum forming ABS plastic (inexpensive and light, but lower durability). Fiberglass would be right in the middle, but neither of us have expertise in this area. We estimated that metal could be viable at around $200/pair while ABS reduces that to about $80/pair. Color-match paint not included, but possible for an additional fee assuming availability. Our intent is to produce quality kits that match the OE styling of the vehicle and require little effort to install and remove, not a "universal" kit that requires plenty of DIY for fitment.

These figures assume a certain production level of each skirt per month, and of course popularity would be a factor in pricing the kits by demand.

Just based on the statistics of the garage here, we came up with a list of vehicles considered to be priority:

Honda Civic
Toyota Corolla
Geo Metro
Saturn SLx
Toyota Prius
Chevy S-10/GMC Sonoma ( based on my own ulterior motives :p )

So the questions for the group are simple:

• How would you prioritize or alter this list?
• How attractive are those price points?
• Which material would you prefer?

Thanks for your insight (no pun intended). We'll be seeking donor vehicles in the Memphis-metro area for a gratis pair per model once we settle on priorities.

Neither of my vehicles made your list, but I'd pick up a pair for both of them in ABS form at $80 a set.

As for order: I'd start with Prius/C/V (larger market of newer vehicles)

Prius C with skirts is rather sexy... now if only photoshop would export to CAD. lol

Since I have both a '99 Metro (Suzuki Swift technically, but I think they're the same thing), and a '00 S-15 Jimmy (= S-Blazer), I'd probably be interested in a pair each to help the cause. - the cheaper ABS @ $80 a set -

I always assumed I'd make them myself, but if these you're doing are "nice", they'll probably be better than what some of my homemade crap would turn out like ....... :D

Thanx,
Bill :thumbup:

I think the 2012 Mustang should be moved to the top of that list.

80 seems reasonable, but no way on 200. Maybe do painting instead?

I think this is good advice, and I would stick to the green cars like Prius and Insight and maybe a couple others because those buyers might more commonly find FE-related accessories "good looking" and be happy to pay. For the used car and DIY type modders found here, well, your list looks good. The Civic is a very common car and so it might be practical even back to the 1992-1995 fifth generation. I also would be curious as to whether the 5th, 6th, and 7th generation civics all had nearly the same rear wheel well shape. I would consider buying a pair... my second DIY set has been delayed for lack of time and a desire to have them look "right" (though I have relatively few skills).

What's your basis for picking the 'stang? Hehe. Yeah, we figured 200 was going a little high for the average commuter, but it would be a much better product for those that want it. Fab costs for metal are unfortunately just going to push it up there.

Totally with you there. The list was based on those that we thought could really benefit from the kit, rather than those who might be interesting in slapping something trendy on their shiny new hybrid. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh... although at the same time, we joked about doing an infomercial and selling "the latest in fuel-saving technology" at 3am whilst making ridiculous claims of 30% better FE.

As an historian who sometimes has these eco-marketing conversations with students wide-eyed and interested in making change in practical ways, I'll say that I think there might be another way to conceive of effective marketing that avoids the exaggerated claims. Part of the Prius appeal is the cool factor of its technology; and that is a personal value to which you might be able to sell persuasively. "Wheel skirts" are a technology too, one developed in the history of cars as a way to reduce drag. So show people cool aero cars out of the past--production and/or experimental--and show them a stylish item with high production value, playing to the "I'm smart" sensibility with a short discussion of drag and a realistic claim for benefits. Some will buy... how many and whether its enough for a business is what market research would have to address. But my point is that the exaggerated claims are based in the I think false idea that the only thing that will sell is the cash savings, whereas if that were true people would not fall for all the gadgety upgrades they are offered all the time. Make it good looking (paint them all) and make it smart-cool and claim a realistic fuel savings. That might work too. And you wouldn't get sued when people discover they don't save 30% on fuel. :thumbup:

True, but how many weight-loss pills advertise ridiculous claims "when used with a sensible diet"? :) There's always a catch. The same holds true for the skirts, when included with a basic hypermiling guide. The gains would mostly be the result of changes in driving habits, supplemented with the aero gains from the skirts. Butt covered.

For the business practicality of it all... we're not looking at this as a full-time business, just to fill a niche. In order to be a completely self-sustaining operation, we'd have to sell on the order of 100 units per week. Not a totally unrealistic goal considering there are over 250M passenger vehicles in the US alone, with about 5M new vehicles sold annually.

I do have a direct line with the sales manager at a local Toyota dealership. I've already had a conversation with him regarding selling them as a dealer-installed option. The dealer could charge practically whatever they want, since everything gets rolled into the finance agreement nowadays. Considering our intent is to produce an OE-quality item, he sees no problem with fitting them on a few demo vehicles, assuming all legal liabilities can be overcome. That, of course, will be the biggest hurdle of all. The other bonus for the dealer is color-matching the skirts to the vehicle, since the they would do it on-site with skilled techs. That boosts our quality control since we don't have to paint-match, and the dealer can purchase the panels at a lower price. Win-win.

If you were in Southern Cali I would propose to you and students an internship idea.

I will take the ABS one for a 2010 Honda fit in a heartbeat and can assure you you would sell a lot of those as these little cars are already good on mpg.

I see those li'l Fits everywhere. When looking at the garage stats here, we used two criteria: total number of owners per model, and a derived "loyalty" rating based on the number of owners who had updated their fuel log in the past year.

For the Fit, the numbers were low on both points. 44 total owners, and only 10 loyal owners (23%). By comparison, the Civic boasts 546 owners with 196 loyal (36%). And of course, this is why the Civic topped our list.

That isn't to say the Fit won't get a nod, but we'd have to see some demand to make that happen first. And there's the point of this thread. Thanks for the feedback! :thumbup:

THe Stang being top ofthe list was a joke, and my little way of saying I am rather interested :)

I doubt many of my fellow mustang oversnwould be interested...

I agree that many people will buy that care about fuel economy, but really, one should focus moreon the bigger fish, to help finance your whole business.

Like with the Mustang, the reason they can afford and develop the GT, GT500, Boss and Leguna Seca is because of The sales on the v6. Or say Toyota, selling Camrys to Be able to afford to build the LFA, and put that technology into their future cars, future Camrys and what nots.

So my Mustang, the older more eco driven people/vehicles may be interested-but is it profitable? While if you first sell for the masses, you have a much wider target audience, and a better chance to break even or profit. Then, you can work on more specialty projects, or a "do it yourself" or "one size fits most" kit.

If I could order them paint-matched ABS, I'd be very interested on the S10 set.

I'll be in for a pair for a Gen 6 Civic in ABS for $80.

Back to the Fit, which my family does not own. As you hope to sell through dealerships: You should check Honda's sales figures. Very possibly they sell nearly as many Fits as Civics now, or more.

Remember Fit has been on the market a shorter amount of time than Civic so this board will have more Civics. So because owners avoid modifying newish cars, you will probably less less Fit participation here, till they become older high mileage cars. BUT buyers might want them with their new car.

if you make it for the toyota echo i buy it right now

The Civic was the third-best-selling car in America last month, and in the top 10 for the year. Approximately 6 Civics were sold for every Fit last year in the US!:eek:

Sign me up for a set of ABS for a 2001 Civic. I am hoping to acquire one in a few days.

For how many weeks? I.E., how many units to break even?

Can you have tooling for multiple part numbers that count toward that total? Point your market machine research tool at thesamba.com. I'd take mine in ABS with a new 'not-the-50s' fender lip.
http://i.imgur.com/8P1wv.jpg

Heck, with those narrowed front axles, you could make matching front fenders skirts and they'd be screaming "TAKE MY MONEY!"

Sorry, I wouldn't be in the market. I couldn't detect any fe change with or without skirts.

I haven't been on thesamba in a while. This REALLY makes me miss my bug... :( '67 with a 1776 DP and the pop-outs. Big pimpin'

On which vehicle? The F-150 is the #1 selling vehicle in America after all. Proving gains on that sled would really open a big segment of the market!

While I agree with your reasoning we do have an ecofit section on a fit forum:
2nd Generation GE8 Specific ECO-Fit Discussion Sub-Forum - Unofficial Honda FIT Forums
The reason you don't see many fit owners here is because most are already happy with the gas mileage and most importantly not many know of this site and availability of products to help FE. If i can get a set and show that this works I am sure many more will be interested.

Depending on the finished product and looks, I would likely be interested in the cheaper option.

When you get there ask for Everett Barnes. It's his site. I asked him what numbers you could expect, but he didn't want to speculate. What Beetle owners lack in numbers they make up in tenacious commitment.

The "Coupe" Tempo.

I'm really surprised there isn't an option out there for type 1's. And IIRC, the fender shape didn't change for about 40 years, just the lights, making a broad year range for one skirt. I have plenty of test subjects from the local VW club here (Mid-South VW (Volkswagen) Club), so that's a viable option.

Cool! It's all about installed base rather than new sales. And like you say, an under-served market.

I was looking at one odd-ball set on thesamba. Fiberglass with no clamping mechanism. He wanted $100, but wouldn't respond to my emails.

(That's quite the website. Lickable buttons. :))

You could partner with "bondo" on here and offer the aero cap and skirts as a package.

-------------------------

I would be very interested in the ABS version. One thing I've been planning was to build some that mimic a Prius or Volt rear bumper. They cleanly detach airflow with a trip line.

http://www.mooncraft.jp/yuratakuya/g...prius03-04.jpg

If you could do a sort of partial body kit for the rear of a 5th gen Civic hatch I'd be all in. With the way the body curves in on the bottom you could possibly make the skirt and trip into one piece. Assuming you figure out a good attachment method that allows quick removal for tire changes, it could be really great.

For two unpainted skirts I would be willing to pay $80, but for two unpainted skirt/trips like the prius up there, I would do $150.

With the VX models and whatnot I think the Civic would be a smart choice. EG and EK first, then the newer ones.

I would definitely be down to lend my Transportation Design BFA and aero experience to the cause. If you need some nice sketches, renderings, design stuff or anything let me know- I'd be glad to consult and it would be good on the resume. :)

-Tyler Linner

Oh, they have to be clamped on somehow?? That changes everything! :p

Yeah I helped with that website around 2001 or so, and it hasn't changed much since. lol

The trouble with larger items is going to be not only the size but the complexity of the mould. The vacuum forming table that we currently have is about 2'x4', so that limits the items that we can currently produce. And they ain't cheap. We picked this one up at auction for a steal at $4k. But it has precise temperature-controlled dual-zone quartz heat and can do pre-stretch (bubbles up before you mold for a MUCH better result on deep moulds) with a real vacuum pump and reservoir. This isn't a home-brew shop-vac and plywood special by any means.

Might just take you up on that! We're still at least a month away from really kicking into gear. Without a detailed plan, we'll never get off the ground.

The 3rd-gen S-10/Sonoma will probably be the first out the door since we both own them, and we can refine our process model from that. I'd much rather learn the hard way on my own vehicle than someone else's. The market may be small for them, but they'll be our guinea pigs.

I'll take a pair for the 2000 Insight! Oh, wait... ;)

We've had a few people in the forum here expressing interest in doing this, but it always seems to peter out. It would be great to see this get off the ground.

At one time, you could get factory-looking aftermarket skirts for the 2nd gen. Prius. You might want to dig around and see if you can find out if they're still available or if not, why not.

EDIT: yeah - just Google "Prius wheel skirts".

I agree! :) We just registered a new domain and will be slapping something up soon. We are really excited about the name, too. This of course was after we managed to:

• Gather enough evidence that the skirts will not cause a vehicle to explode or crash violently.
• Convince our attorney that this will not cause vehicles to explode or crash violently.
• Bought (more) insurance after convincing our agent that the attorney was convinced.
• Convince our wives that the cost of our attorney and insurance agent was justified, and that we will be home for supper at least three nights per week.

And since the wife is agreeable, it might actually happen. :thumbup:

Yep, Hybrid Effects. They're $400/pair - unpainted, $500 with paint. They appear to be of great quality and fiberglass, but they are not easily removable - better keep a screwdriver in the glove box.

I have seen other skirts for very few modern vehicles, but all produced from different manufacturers. Chevy HHR, SSR, Dodge Magnum/Charger, PT Cruiser... none of which would I lump into the "eco" community.

Well here it is...
www.lowcd.com

and the ubiquitous Facebook page:
facebook.com/lowcd

The vacuum forming table will be a nice asset. To do the Beetle, all you need is a couple of fenders to hang on the wall.

I'd finally found this magazine from 1981. Here's the fender lip line I was thinking of:
http://i.imgur.com/LRiEU.jpg

It's not as easy as Harry Bradley made it look, there is a ~1 1/4" height difference from the front to the back at the bottom edge of the opening. And that finicky little tail to merge with the fender line.

I see one trouble wit al this is insurance, if you own a home or property you've got to cover yourself, the lawyers would be too happy to sue you if one came loose from a rock inside or other reason and hit the car behind you , it's a tough road. but good luck , if you or your parents dont own a home , go for it.

I meant just extending the plane backward, at the bumper and below only. Perhaps it's a two-piece deal with the skirt removable and the rear fin part permanent (this would let you design a custom rear mount for the skirt).

2'x4' doesn't seem that large when it comes to vehicle body panels! Hopefully that covers it, especially with the trucks.

Good deal on starting with the "known". Let me know if you need something.

Pretty sure they'd have to sue the company, not the people. You don't sue Bill Gates if your computer comes to life and kills people. You sue Microsoft!

Sven7 is being too modest.

Here, I'll do it:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-ii-24269.html

http://i.imgur.com/ad5if.jpg

Nice! :thumbup: Wish I could draw like that! I just rely on Photoshop... an amateur to say the least. Here's a mock-up of the Sonoma skirts. Started on the driver's side plug last night. Picking up our first sheets of ABS on Friday. I'm stoked!

I'm sure the owners auto insurance would cover it with a waiver of liability. A wheel skirt is really safe, really light plastic, and if ejected from the car would only put a scratch in a car that hit it. Most likely it'll just be run over a couple of times.

The only thing to worry about is designing a mount that if it touched the tire (unlikely) would not puncture it. Our guys have been known to mount strips of metal. Though effective, a plastic mount with plastic screws would be safer.

I'd buy a pair of front wheel skirts for a 2000 Insight! You make the skirt, i'll design my own mount.