Datsun 240z becomes Electric/Diesel Hybrid
 

I thought I'd share my progress with this project as I'm sure many people here have contemplated similar ideas.

I'd like to start by stating that I do not think hybrids the "solution" to our energy problems. They are more like a stepping stone to alternatives, a way for people to get used to the idea of having electricity power their car, even if only in part.

So... why build a hybrid then?

Originally my project started as a pure EV conversion. However, after crunching the numbers over and over I came to the conclusion that I just can't pack enough electricity into this vehicle while keeping the weight reasonable. Also, my needs vary from day to day and having a vehicle that can only travel 40 miles a day means I would need to keep a second, ICE powered, vehicle around at all times for those extra trips and long distance traveling. By integrating the engine I need to have anyway into my EV I get the best of both worlds, and only need a single vehicle.

Unlike a typical hybrid, this is really going to be more of a "range extended EV', hopefully being able to complete 90% of all my traveling without needing the engine.

I plan on cleaning up the diesel as much as is possibly, primarily through the use of propane injection. My understanding is this significantly decreases the amount of unburned fuel leaving the exhaust, while increasing power because you get a more complete burn. I also intend of using WVO if possible, through the use of a heated system. Does anyone have any good suggestions for cleaning up the diesel any further?

More information is available at my blog: Project AmpEater

I'm also having a hard time choosing between a series or parallel setup. Series is simpler mechanically, more complex electrically. Parallel is more simple (and saves 100 lbs due to no need for the generator), but will be more complex mechanically and the generator cannot operate in its peak efficiency band all the time like with a series. Any suggestions/comments are greatly appreciated.

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How many batteries are you gonna have room for?
What kind of generator are you planning on using & how big?
I think a great solution is to run 2 banks of 9 12v's in parallel, giving 96v but with double the range. Then, when you just want to bomb around town you only need to shift 3 wires & you have 192v in series!
Of course you need a motor & controller that can handle it...
S.

I've got 12 Odyssey 1750's, at 73ah each. My controller is 144/156v and 1000A.

The generator head, which I've purchased, but I'm not sure if I'm going to end up using or not is 10,000 watts.

My motor is a 9" Kostov, rated for 144v and 107a cont. I'm hoping it can handle 1000A without melting, but I've heard of it being used at 1000A and 300v+ for drag racing, so it should be OK.

Wow that is a clean 240z

Very interesting project. Bookmarked your page so I can follow along. Good luck

I'm already in line if you ever want to sell something like this.
I had a 280Z ( same budy style as the 240 Z )

Al I can say is WOW. I'm impressed !

Hi AmpEater, welcome. Very interesting project.

Have you seen this bio-d / electric series hybrid?

http://forum.ecomodder.com/showthrea...Miata#post7812

I'm hoping to go visit him when the weather warms up to have a better look at the car. Actually, it'll probably be at the EV Expo in May with the ForkenSwift this year. :)

Dreams do come true! A Diesel-Hybrid powertrain into a classic, fun, Sportscar.

Bookmarked as well :thumbup: I'm also looking forward to the progress...

I like the idea of a "range extending EV" -- something very suitable for any Hybrid, IMO.

Welcome and keep us posted :)

RH77

Sweet project! Welcome to the site!

Very nice project! I almost picked up a 280z a few years back as a restoration project. Beautiful car.

Thanks for all the kinds words guys. I'm incredibly excited about this project, pretty much been obesssing over it for months. The only reason I've got time to post anything is because I'm stuck waiting for the transmission/motor adapter to arrive and can't weld the battery trays until the motor is in place, can't finish wiring until I know exactly where the batteries are going to go, etc, etc. As soon as this is hear its going to be a non-stop-work-a-thon which will (hopefully) conclude with the car moving out of the garage on electric power.

The generator is going to probably be the real challenge. I'm starting with a 10hp air-cooled single cylinder engine and hope to get 16+hp peak, 14 cont and "clean" emissions. I know that the propane (or onboard hydrogen) will help particulates alot, but I don't know if this will be enough to get anywhere near a catalytic-equipped gasoline car. Does anyone know if they even make catalytic converters that will work for small engines? For diesels? Or would I be better off with a lpg engine emission wise?

LPG / LNG is cleaner emission-wise, but consumption is higher and availability is limited. Here's the Wiki entry on Diesel Catalytic Converters...

I'm sure that they're readily available for purchase and most likely can be adapted for your application. The problem with the Diesel/Hybrid is keeping the catalyst consistently heated for proper operation, if starting/shutdown is frequent.

LNG/LPG would require specialized tanks as well. I would look to see if these fuels are locally available for you and go from there...

RH77

How much more fuel efficient do you think a diesel generator will be compared to an off the shelf gas generator from honda for example? It seems like a lot of work for not much gain. Usually gas generators that are run at constant speed and max load are darn near as efficient as a diesel. Don't take it the wrong way, I think you have an excellent concept in mind. I just think an off the shelf generator is worth a second look. I'm sure you've already done that. I don't know if 6.7hp is large enough but it seems to be the most bang for the buck and weight. They go all the way up to 14.7hp
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...delName=eg5000
Used generators are dirt cheap on Craigslist.
cheers
Justin

welcome to the site AmpEater. I have dreamed about doing a project like yours. You are doing great. My 2 cents worth may be not be worth 2 cents.
So ignore me, if your past this point. A direct coupled (shaft to shaft) engine to gen. would be considerably more efficient than belt driven. Is it possible to run the engine at it's most efficient RPM or do you need a certain frequency. A much smaller engine could be programed to shut down after you park at your destination on long trips. When leaving home base, the gen. could be started early on if the trip is to be long. I am a diesel fanatic but diesels are a challenge to isolate. (vibration and sound). Air rides, internal balance shafts, big intake and exhaust mufflers. The smallest single cylinder that will keep the batteries up would be good. I have driven 500 miles without stopping but I would have been safer if I had stopped every couple hours for a stretch. And let my "batteries charge". I would be tempted to try a little tiny, smooth, quiet off the shelf generator first to see how the duty cycles work out. Do not know if any little gensets will burn E85. Direct injected flex fuel engines will compete with diesels. You can quote me on that.
The price of diesel on the road has lost its advantage.
10 % winter to 20 % summer biodiesel blends do burn considerably cleaner in my engine, than straight low sulfur, and no heater. Electricity may or may not be a renewal fuel but B100 argueably is.
Is there any way to run a shaft out the back of the motor or transmission, or differential to direct couple a generator for regen. capability. Or a motor/generator all in one. The big advantage of batteries is the regen. capability. On the transmission, the direct drive gear is the most efficient not fifth. Although the ability to down shift might be great for regen. After your drive train is running, if you add aero modds your not going to need as much power as you think. Again my thoughts are meant only as encouragement.

To keep things organized I will try to respond to each post/point seperately.

MetroMPG - I had not seen that, very cool. I am a little bummed I wont be the first to complete such a project, but its almost strange that you don't see more projects like this because all the hardware is available "off-the-shelf" and its just a matter of putting it all together.

RH77 - Thanks for that link, I hadn't found that yet. You touched on an important point with the lpg - availability. I'd like to have the ability to take longer trips with this thing, and I don't want to have a massive fuel tank taking up precious space. That pretty much limits my options to diesel, and gas.

tjts1 - I hadn't really considered an off the shelf generator, though that would make things alot easier. My main reason for choosing diesel is the higher efficiency at turning fuel btu's into kw (do to lack of a throttle body for one). But my logic may have been flawed if each engine is running at WOT (minimal pumping losses) as a generator would be. Diesel does have the option of running off of straight vegetable oil. I am trying to keep my design as modular as possible so if this diesel/gen combo doesn't live up to my expectations I could always swap it out for a gas unit with minimal fuss. I do need around 10,000w continous (for 65mph cruising) and any normal generator of this size is going to be bigger and more expensive than I would like (my belt driven 10,000watt home made gen is about $800 total)

diesel_john - You make a good point about the direct coupled efficiency gain, I hadn't considered that. I bought a belt unit because it seemed like mounting would be much easier with a belt length that could be adjusted until everything fit in the rear nicely. The fact that diesel price has spiked recently is a bummer, the choice would be much easier if it were stil cheaper. As you probably know, a gallon of diesel contains more energy so this may make up for the price difference. As far as regen goes, my motor actually has interpoles already, which allows it to be used as a generator without arcing to death like a normal series wound would during regen. The main limitation is the motor controller. Mine does not support it, but if I'm willing to live with 1/2 the amp rating (500A peak) I could get a 144v controller with regen capability. I really, really want regen so I might make the swap at some point if it seems like 500A will be enough for decent acceleration. I suppose a generator in parallel with the motor would give me the same capability without the power sacrifice, at the expense of 100lbs. SO many possibilities....

Very cool project!

Keep up the good work!

Since you'll be running it to charge the batteries, the only difference between a gas and diesel genset is that the diesel will likely cost more, be heavier, and pollute more. A gas engine on LNG/LPG would probably be the cleanest option given the on/off nature of the generator, but the Lambda must be around 1.6-8 for optimal emissions based on what I've read. Gasoline engines would likely be a pain emissions wise since the cat would have to be lit off every time, which would really increase emissions.

I really only intend to use the generator for perhaps 30min a day, split into 2 sessions. And then occasionally for 2-3hours. And I don't really expect to use it to "charge the batteries" so much as I want the generator to augment their output just as much as is necessary to get me where I'm going at a reasonable dod. I plan to recharge at school, and work, in addition to home and therefore still be running the car on 80% recharged stored electrons and 20% diesel electrons at any given time.

I regret having just commited to purchasing a diesel engine. But, this is basically a rolling science project for the next couple months and swaping over to propane would be a pretty simple matter. I've changed the battery mounting scheme to leave alot more space for the generator "pod" and therefore have room for an LPG tank if necessay.

Converting a gasoline engine to run of propane is not too complex it seems, with the possiblity of even leaving the gasoline equipment functional should it be necessary. Since I expect the generator to be running at constant speed, constant load finding the optimal amount of propane to inject for a good burn should be simple with a wideband O2 sensor (which I happen to have). I will have to explore this option.

Any ideas on how the emissions of a propane injected diesel compare? If the presence of lpg in the combustion chamber really creates a faster, more effecient burn with drastically reduced particulate emissions then I suspect a diesel may be comparably "green". I will have to find a way to test this.

I think diesel is much BETTER for a rolling science project. That leaves open experimentation with Bio-diesel and waste vegetable oil!

"I think diesel is much BETTER for a rolling science project. That leaves open experimentation with Bio-diesel and waste vegetable oil!"

Kind of that I was thinking too. I also want to experiment with turbo/supercharging to increase my hp/lb and therefore kw/lb and also increase total efficiency by reducing pumping losses. A supercharged propane injected waste vegetable oil buring engine just has a nice ring to it. And I am much more apt to experiment with something that could be swapped out any any time for a different engine.

I've also been very interested in biogas recently, made from anaerobically digested waste. This could be used just like natural gas/propane, but at a higher rate due to a lower btu/lb content. The problem then becomes compressing it safely, probably at pretty low pressures, which means low range (but on 100% recycled carbon fuels). This is kind of off topic for now though, since I've committed to the diesel already. Should be here in about 5 days.

Turbochargers are more efficient than superchargers. I'd go that way.

Any idea on where I might find a turbocharger appropriate for a .4L engine?

The smallest turbo I can think of would be the 3cyl 1L metro turbo. Since I'm running the engine at 100% perhaps I could get away with a turbo designed to provide boost at 1/2 power on an engine twice the size. I'm probably only looking for 4-6 psi.

Ford’s “EcoBoost” technology
 

"Ford has also announced plans to offer turbocharged engines. Ford’s “EcoBoost” technology—a combination of direct injection and turbocharging—yields as much as a 20 percent increase in fuel economy, and is slated to appear on as many as a half-million vehicles during the next five years."

"Turbocharging, The New Hybrid?"

Very interesting.....

The first thing I though of was the "Kei Cars" from Japan -- essentially ~660cc mini cars.

Some were produced with turbos (running around 6 psi max boost) -- which is where I might start looking...

RH77

The reason why I've shied away from similar in the past has been that a diesel generator tends to only weigh a hundred pounds or so less than a small diesel engine and transmission and puts out far less peak power with similar or less efficiency. That being said, since ya got it already, am efficiency hit really won't matter much on WVO. :thumbup:I think this would be your best bet IMO from the POV of emissions.I know on straight propane they're pretty good, something like 1g/hp-hr for NOx+NMHC, which is similar to what gasoline passenger cars are at AFAIK. This is w/o any emissions systems that I know of. Since most emissions for a gasoline powered vehicle are during startup when cold, I imagine a LPG/CNG diesel or gasoline engine would be cleaner if tuned properly. As for propane injection, if it's anything like Hydrogen injection it's supposed to result in a larger drop in emissions, although I don't think it would be better than just LPG/CNG.

propane is about 91,000 Btu per gallon so its not less expensive esp. if you add road tax.

Does your generator have to run at a certain frequency?

Turbo gets more power from smaller engine but is only more efficient if you can use most of that power.
What is the compression ratio of your engine? And are the pistons oil cooled?

diesel_john

All good points. I was amazed to find that the 100+hp VW TDI engine only weighed twice the 10hp diesel. Perhaps that would be the ultimate system, a small lightweight turbocharged diesel coupled to the transmission, with an electric motor assist and idle stop. You cut out the generator ineffeciency and weight, and reduce the peak requirements of the electrical system saving even more weight. Maybe next time.

"propane is about 91,000 Btu per gallon so its not less expensive esp. if you add road tax.

Does your generator have to run at a certain frequency?

Turbo gets more power from smaller engine but is only more efficient if you can use most of that power. What is the compression ratio of your engine? And are the pistons oil cooled?"

I guess in this situation I'm trading price for the ability to get away with little/no emissions system and still have a relatively clean exhaust. Hopefully I will only be using <1gal / 100 miles so I'm still doing much better than the 30mpg of gasoline I burn currently.

Frequency is totally unimportant for me, each pulse is just getting dumped into the buffer of the battery bank before being consumed by the motor. I guess higher frequency may be slightly more efficient, but pretty negligable.

I bought a generator head rated to make use of ~20hp engine, so every hp over the stock 10 I can make will be capable of becomming more watts for propulsion. I tried to find the compression ratio but I don't see it listed anywhere, perhaps the documentation I get with the engine will be more detailed. From looking at similar engines I would guess between 20:1 and 23:1

Above 20 to 1 you are at the point of diminsihing returns. About all there is to gain is taking off your muffler and using the turbo as a muffler. Even with a modest boost of 6 or 7 psi. Your cylinder pressures will be up in the considerably reduced reliability range. What happens is without oil cooled pistons increase intake temperatures reduce the strength the pistons and the increase pressure pushes a hole in the center of the piston. Turbo'd engines have a feed back loop to the injector pump to provide more fuel as more air is delivered so the power gain is not free. A cold air intake at a high pressure area for the intake and the cooling air would be worth while. Also exit the exhaust and heated air to a low pressure area. Propane injection has the effect of advancing the timing and also raises peak pressure. There are undeniable safety concerns with propane on board. You can produce this same effect somewhat by advancing the timing, but with more NOx. Biodiesel burns enough cleaner that just 10% reduces noticeable smoke from my 1983 engine. The only problems that i have encountered with vegetable oils is low temperature waxing and it tends to soften rubber seals in the fuel system. Biodiesel and vegetable oils are two different fuels, biodeisel is engineered to use in diesels, vegetable oils could be anything from bees wax to olive oil.

The reason i asked about frequency is the torque peak of most high speed diesels is below the 60 Hz required for house current. The diesel does not lose efficiency as fast as a gas engine does at rpm's below the torque peak. So you could have the advantage of being able to reduce the engine rpm down below the torque peak or even lower if the cooling fan will provide enough air. This is huge. This like having an infinitely variable transmission, this is very good. You can reduce "rack" and still fully load. Anyway, because diesels have a comparatively long stroke, piston speeds at high rpm's tend to reduce the life expectancy.

First of all I'd like to thank you for some very good information diesel_john! Sounds like you've got about 100,000x better understanding of the technical aspects of diesels than me.

Would an intercooler make a significant difference in this regard? It should lower the intake temperatures to close to ambient. The cylinder pressures would still be increased over designed operating conditions however.

I'm a little curious as to how one advances the timing on a diesel? My understanding is that timing refers to the point at which the spark ignites the fuel mixture, but seeing that diesels have no spark I would assume that timing is fixed. Do you instead adjust when the fuel is injected instead?

I had no idea biodiesel actually burned any cleaner, I thought its sole appeal was better lubrication and being "renewable". This is very interesting, perhaps I can eliminate the need for propane if this is the case. Is your experience with fossil diesel/biodiesel blend, or would this apply to a biodiesel/WVO blend as well?

Again, very interesting. Because the generator will be belt driven I could set the ratio at whatever engine speed is ideal. If I could get close to full power with a reduced engine speed and significantly increase the life expectancy I would be very happy. I assume the 60hz tidbit applies to direct drive generators? I'm glad you mentioned the cooling fan. My plans did not include one. It seems like an electric radiator fan should provide more than enough airflow, while still allowing me to turn it off at highway speeds and just allow the passing air to do this work.

Update
 

Its been a busy few days. The engine arrived. I'm suprised at how compact it is. Its also looks very simple, I'm eager to modify it. I wont really touch it until the generator also arrives, but my real focus is on the electric drivetrain. I made a template out of plywood to verify my hole spacing and to be used as a guide for the real deal. I also was able to do a rough fit of the motor to transmission just to help my visualize the finished product and avoid any stupid errors.

I wonder if there would be any way to drive a generator from the exhaust turbine insteading of pressurizing the intake. I think I recall hearing that BMW or somesuch company was experimenting with this. My understanding is that diesels handle backpressure better than gassers, so perhaps this would be a way to harvest further energy from the process. Now where can I get a generator good for 100,000rpm...hmm

Originally Posted by AmpEater
"Would an intercooler make a significant difference in this regard? It should lower the intake temperatures to close to ambient. The cylinder pressures would still be increased over designed operating conditions however."

Yes, that is the purpose of an aftercooler, not only does the air absorb heat from being in contact with the compressor blades it also is heated from being compressed from 0 to whatever psi. However, the engine compression of a factory turbo'd engine starts at much lower ratio some as low as 15 to 1. This is similiar with gas engines also.


"I'm a little curious as to how one advances the timing on a diesel? My understanding is that timing refers to the point at which the spark ignites the fuel mixture, but seeing that diesels have no spark I would assume that timing is fixed. Do you instead adjust when the fuel is injected instead?"
Yes
The timing is advanced by tilting the injection pump or slots in the timing gear, just like turning a distributor. this is normally set for max. power at the factory.


"I had no idea biodiesel actually burned any cleaner, I thought its sole appeal was better lubrication and being "renewable". This is very interesting, perhaps I can eliminate the need for propane if this is the case. Is your experience with fossil diesel/biodiesel blend, or would this apply to a biodiesel/WVO blend as well?"

My experience is with fossil diesel and up to 20% biodiesel blend. Yes, the biodiesel blend acts as a catalyst, i haven't researched why.

"Again, very interesting. Because the generator will be belt driven I could set the ratio at whatever engine speed is ideal. If I could get close to full power with a reduced engine speed and significantly increase the life expectancy I would be very happy. I assume the 60hz tidbit applies to direct drive generators? I'm glad you mentioned the cooling fan. My plans did not include one. It seems like an electric radiator fan should provide more than enough airflow, while still allowing me to turn it off at highway speeds and just allow the passing air to do this work."

i meant the fan on the engine needs a certain speed. you can't lug an air cooled engine like you can a water cooled engine, unless you speed up the fan.

Because your gen. is 20hp and engine is 10hp, you will need to control the generator draw or it will overload the engine. Find out the Rpm at peak torque for your engine. Ideally run the engine just below that speed. Is your engine speed governed? A generator engine is speed governed to get 60 hz. but you can direct couple and run the engine at peak efficiency RPM because you don't care about frequency. if belt, look up the transmission loss of your type of belt. i think you might be shooting yourself in the foot on that one.

An alternator will go to 10,000, maybe 15. need to drive a slower pump backwards...hmm i wonder those 1980's air pumps would be metal or plastic inside?
somewhere i read the exhaust was used to help direct drive the wheels. i would look up how diesel electric works in locomotives. they forgot more than i'll ever know, about series setups. looking at the big picture if you can find a high pressure point on the front of your car, duct that to the intake. likewise connect a low pressure point on the rear of your car to the exhaust.

is that tranny direct drive in fourth?

I just ran a smog pump on 20 psi air. Not much torque out, i could stall it by hand with a wooden block.

Year, forth is 1:1

I like the idea of using a smog pump as a turbine basically. I've heard of them being used similarly in solar hot water setups to drive a generator, so they must be pretty tough. I've got a couple GAST air motors, rated 6hp cont at 100psi and like 10+ cfm 3000rpm. I wonder if they would make for a decent generator turbine. Probably not designed to run with a hot gas input.

A picture is worth 1000 words....

http://ampeater.files.wordpress.com/...3/dscn1819.jpg

There is a fellow that I am sure you have heard of ....but just in case you have not, his name is John 'Plasma Boy" Wayland.
He drives an all electric Datsun 210 and is currently running high 11s in the 1/4 mile.

I spoke with him by phone a while back, and the guy is friendly as can be and very enthusiatic about electric cars.
He has been building electric cars for over 20 years, and really knows his stuff, but yet is more than willing to share the knowledge.
He is just an everyday guy that tinkers with electrics and is doing a fantastic job of changing perceptions of electric cars.

....And .....he loves old Datsuns, and I just know you guys would 'click'.

His website is www.plasmaboyracing.com

Best of luck on your project. You are doing exactly what I had hoped to do with my own Datsun ( no longer with me )

I also wanted to compliment you on weighing in the emmisions factor when producing a vehicle like this. Personally, there is no way I would have used a gasoline engine as a second engine. SVO all the way !

Again good luck with your project. I really excited to see your progress.

I've probably studied every line of text on his website several times over. It is a great refrence.

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Now I just need to fab up a motor mount and some battery hold downs.

Great pics. Progress!

What is the diesel you got?