Delivery Driver's Problems ('96 Civic CX ... seeking advice)
 

I mainly looking for suggestions in driving style...

I drive a (new-to-me) '96 Honda Civic CX (hatch)-- no mods except cruise control.

2-3 days/week, I have a (34 mile roundtrip) part-city, part-highway commute. 4 days/week, I deliver pizzas. Average of about 320 miles/week

So I'm stuck in city driving for the majority of my driving, which is terrible for my gas mileage.

Over my last two or three tanks, I've gotten an average of 34mpg. Which isn't too bad, I guess. It is a very stop-and-go driving situation. But I want more, ideally 40 or over.

That 34mpg is just driving normally. I'm not a lead foot, and I generally try to take the most time-efficient routes (that is, whichever one involves the fewest stops. This tank, I'm experimenting with shutting the engine off at stoplights that I know I'll have to wait at (there are several timed lights in town that are 30sec reds), and coasting in neutral whenever possible. I'm due to fill up either tomorrow or sunday, so we'll see what difference (if any) that's made.

Other tips for city driving? I'm conflicted that EOC may not be safe (legal?), though there are consistent streets that I drive where it would work beautifully. Thoughts on EOC safety?

I'd be up for inexpensive aero mods, but do they really make an appreciable difference in city driving (<35mph)? Also, they couldn't be too extreme, as my car still has to look presentable for delivering pizzas. (I'm pretty positive that my boss doesn't want his pizzas delivered in a spaceship held together by duct tape...)

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Notes:

I do not have a ScangaugeII-- $170 is WAY out of my budget. I set aside $20/month for parts/maintenance and such for our two cars-- so maybe in a couple of years (IF the cars don't break)....

I'm a new member here. First post ftw!

"Ultragauge" is 60-70 bucks. If you are not already the most efficient driver (we all have room to improve especially if we don't have any data) it will pay for it self and quickly if you are driving a lot. If the car does break it can really pay for it self by helping you diagnose problems. I'm short on cash too so anything I do to the car has to pay for itself, on board instantaneous fuel consumption info of some sort is very worth the investment.

If you drive 200 miles per week, and go from 35 to 40mpg you go from 5.7 gallons to 5 gallons. at 3.50 per that's 19.95 down to 17.5 or saving $2.45 per week. that means it's paid off in 28 weeks at only 200 miles per week. This is a very conservative estimate as you stated you drive more than that, and breaking over 40mpg in a civic with a instantaneous fuel consumption display is child's play. (when I had my civic I had to try to get less than 40mpg even in the winter driving in the city) but that was only after I trained myself using a fuel consumption display.


EOC is safe especially in a light car with an attentive driver. If you don't have power steering the only thing that changes when the engine is off is braking pressure after the vac is depleted, and in the case where you are using lots of braking applications (which would use up available vacuum) you could use DFCO. As for legal, do your own math on the risks, it would be pretty hard for a cop to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There are lots of discussions on proper bump start and EOC technique. My personal preference is some sort of kill switch as I don't like the risk of locking up the steering and the extra manipulations of the ignition mechanism.

Welcome to the forum.

Bestclimb has some great advice.

Don't put off the gauge - start looking on eBay for used ones, too. It'll pay for itself. Not getting one is effectively putting off savings. (And fun!)

Aggressively efficient driving will have your city mileage ABOVE typical highway numbers. But it would require a fair amount of engine off stuff for that to happen.

Completely realistic & attainable.

Please report back.

Depends on the driver's ability, depends on the car. You lose power assist in the steering -- is that a problem in a Civic CX (does it even have power steering)? I won't EOC some vehicles that have unusually heavy un-assisted steering.

As bestclimb said, you retain power assisted brakes for 1-3 pedal applications until you deplete the vacuum. After that, you have to press noticeably harder on the pedal for the same braking force. Or, just restart the engine.

I'd be reluctant to use the key for regularly killing the engine. If you're doing to do this, wire a kill switch to the shifter for a couple of bucks. http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...our-24263.html

Do a partial grille block first: helps aero AND retaining heat in the engine bay. Monitor your coolant temps though.

That's just silly. :D Who's going to turn away the piping hot pizza at their door because they think the delivery vehicle looks funny? Not me!!

I often think of the pizza guys & taxi drivers in town. I'd love to do ride-alongs with some of them to give pointers on saving fuel. ( http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ion-23772.html )

Welcome to the forum!

If you have an Android phone, get a Bluetooth Elm237 device for $12 on Ebay. This will be just as good as an Ultragauge or Scangauge. The downside is if you use your phone for navigation, then the gauges won't be visible. Next best option then would be an UltraGauge.

Get a gauge before doing a grill block to keep an eye on engine temps. The temp needle on your car isn't precise enough to know when it's running a little hot and the cooling fan is kicking on.

Do you have a manual transmission? I get the same MPG regardless of stop and go or steady highway driving because I let a gap develop ahead of me, and I coast while traffic is slowing, and accelerate slightly when it picks up. Basically, I drive the average speed of traffic and don't worry if people cut into that gap. This strategy might not work as well in cities other than Portland due to other drivers being more aggressive. In Portland, people tend to move out of my lane about as often as they move into it, so I barely loose any time by leaving a gap.

Install the free Gasbuddy app to locate the cheapest stations to fill up.

I'm impressed that you budget $20 a month for repairs. Most people with modest funds blow everything and they create an emergency when something unexpected happens. Keep up the good work! Maintaining a reasonable budget will reduce a lot of financial stress and eliminate a large area of conflict in relationships.

Wow! Lots of help here!

Bestclimb: Yes, I do want one. I ran the math, and if it gains me 5mpg, it'll pay for itself in about 6-7 months. (Gas in my area is currently $3.20ish/gal). I'm still reluctant to put out the cash for one, though. I only just bought the car two months ago, and I'm still getting used to it...the clutch is WAY different than my '67 VW, and it's just a different vehicle all around. I do want to put a few more tanks-worth of miles on it so as to establish a baseline of what I can do just by the seat of my pants, that way I can better know what kind of gain I'm actually shooting for. This tank is looking like better mileage than the last two, based on eyeballing the gas gauge-- we'll see for sure when I fill up this weekend.

MetroMPG: I'm really happy with the fact that you all think >40mpg is attainable. That's encouraging.
The CX has no power steering, which is nice. I think I could probably do a kill switch-- though I do want to experiment with bump-starting first, and get that skill down. It sounds like it'd be within the budget, which, as I mentioned earlier is super-tight (thankfully by choice, and not necessity). Also, this CX is the nicest/newest vehicle I've ever owned in my life, so I kinda don't want to mess it up. :P
The customers aren't as worried about the looks of the car as my boss is. I'm pretty sure he wants his delivery fleet to look reasonably clean/in repair/not jerry-rigged/etc. Otherwise, I'd be driving my '67 rusty VW surf wagon for delivering pizzas...

Redpoint5: I don't have a smart phone. I barely have a cell phone, and that's only because it's required as a pizza delivery driver. If I did, I'd be all over that suggestion. Yes, I have a manual trans; it was a must-have when I was looking for a car. They're just so much better all around (plus more reliable).
I'm in a pretty small/rural city (20k pop), so the only two (4) lane traffic is the highway through town. A lot of the lights are sensored and a few are timed. I'm always plotting how to hit the lights right and mentally calculating which route(s) will be least impeded.

Re: grill blocks-- hotter engines are more efficient? I've heard this elsewhere, but haven't thought about it much. Does it kill efficiency if/when the cooling fan comes on?

Re: EOC-- I noticed the other day when I was coasting into my parking spot at home, that when I switch the key off, the speedo falls to zero. Then I noticed that the odometer ALSO stopped moving. The speedo/odo functioned normally when I switched the key on (but engine still off) while rolling. Is this normal? Or only in newer cars with electronic instrumentation? Also, this means that any miles I EOC (like into my parking spot) without the key on aren't counted toward my mileage... :S

Also, as an aside, I wish I had a tach (which I guess I would if I bought a scangauge, huh? ;P). I'm stuck with the super basic gauge package though-- speed/temp/fuel + idiot lights. :(

If you switch the key back to run after stopping the engine, you should get your speedometer/odo back. Kill switch avoids this temporary glitch altogether.

Yup: the faster you get the engine up to operating temp, the better. In the really cold weather, your engine may not even get there without a block!

Running hotter is more fuel efficient, but the vehicle isn't designed to run much hotter than it already is. Things will prematurely wear or fail when running hotter than the designed temp; likely 180-220 degrees. My fan comes on at 215 degrees. It's not efficient to run the fan because the electric power comes from the alternator, which is not efficient.

The Ultragauge is only $61-$70, so that is a more affordable way to go for instrumentation.

As an aside, there are many alternative phone providers besides the big 3 that have much better contract-free rates. My wife has a smart phone with unlimited talk/text/data for $25/mo through Republic Wireless. Other providers allow you to bring a used device and activate it on their network for very affordable monthly rates (Boost, Virgin, StraightTalk).

If you want to know about saving money, especially on recurring bills, I'm a bit of an expert. PM me if you want to know what I do to save on things like insurance, internet, etc.

Redpoint.... out of curiosity, do you participate at the MMM forum on money matters?

No, but I have read through several of Mr. Money Mustache's excellent blogs. I just tend to have the habits of a frugal person by nature. Perhaps it was my modest upbringing, or just my rational tendencies. A person can often make more money per hour of "work" by spending a little extra time to be more frugal and shop around. The reason I'm on ecomodder is to be frugal with my fuel and learn how things work.

I'd participate on MMM, but I'm already spending time here, Slickdeals, Fatwallet, Priuschat, and various other forums... I'll see if I can fit it in :thumbup:

Your Republic phone comment is what got me wondering. I've read ... and still read ... but don't participate at MMM.

/END THREAD JACK!

Nice little car. Ditto all the above. Check out my garage page because I have a very similar car to yours and my page has notes galore and more importantly for you links to things I have done. Good luck. Get the gauge. UltraGauge.

re: kill switch, there is a thread I started for 5th gen civics and a very workable kill switch, some of the 6th gen guys jumped in with the slight differences, if you do a search for 5th gen kill switch it should sow the way.

This guy is good, too.

Frugal Living is a Key to the Financial Freedom You Deserve

Sorry for the sidetrack...

This is same way I did my '97 DX's kill switch, as far as where to wire it in. http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...vic-18242.html

I played around with bump-starting the other night. It was SUPER easy. Easier than I expected it to be. It'd be even easier to EOC if I had a kill-switch. I'll be perusing the kill-switch threads, because switching the key off and on is awkward and I really don't like the fact that all my instrumentation also dies when the key goes to ACC.

I'm due to fill up tomorrow/tonight, so I'll give an update on my mpg when I do that.

As an aside, I'm still adjusting to driving the Civic, and it's weird to me for the engine to be so quiet. I'm so used to driving my air-cooled VWs, that the Honda feels so sleek and shiny-new to me in comparison. Though the clutches on my VWs were/are smooth as a a dream, while the clutch in the Civic is way touchier.

Filled up late last night.

353.5 miles, 9.545 gallons. 37mpg! That's up 4mpg from my last couple tanks' average (33.5 and 34.5 mpg).

That was neutral coast when possible, key off at lights longer than 10-15 seconds, and driving in the highest gear possible. Plus, of course, taking routes that avoided as many stop lights/signs as possible.

I'm going to do another tank with the same techniques, to see if I get a reasonably close average, and work on finding a kill switch.

Nice bump.

Oh, to be on the steep part of the improvement curve again. That's where the fun is.

indeed, next comes high mileage normalcy then the depression of only getting 50mpg.

Hey 96CX, another pizza delivery guy here. I just got a 02 Civic LX to deliver in. My first couple of tanks I got 36-37mpg. This last tank was only 32mpg, mostly because of driving 180 miles in snow and ice for two days. I too would like to break 40mpg delivering pizza.

So here is a delivery related question...How long does a red light need to be before turning the engine off saves fuel?

I would think certainly 15 seconds with long enough with modern electronic fuel injection systems.

Thanks for piping up, Detail Man! If you have any certain techniques that you do/use, please post. :)

On the "how long must the engine be off to save fuel vs. idling" question-- have there been any studies/testing done to see how much fuel is used on startup for a given engine? Is there any tech data available? Then it could be compared to the gal/hr used at idle (Scangauge computes this, right?) to see how long it takes to reach the break even point. Are there any other threads on this topic?

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Update! I just filled my tank tonight: 338.7 miles and 8.878 gal. 38.15 mpg. This seems to be within a reasonable margin of error compared to last week's 37.2 mpg. I'll be continuing the techniques I'm currently using for another tank or two (and keeping y'all posted), and meanwhile looking in Radio Shack and such places for a good switch to make a kill-switch. I kind of want one anyway for theft prevention, since I tend to leave my keys in the car (both while delivering, and there's usually a spare key inside the car somewhere).

when I rocked a civic it the break even point was less than 10 seconds. I forget the math but data was gathered with an mpguino that was more accurate than a scan/ultra guage could be.

So far my techniques are pretty typical for the EM crowd: timing redlights, coasting in neutral, picking routes, running in highest gear for the conditions, etc. Half of our delivery area is typical suburban (redlights, 4 lanes, subdivisions) and the other half is rural (narrow, curvy, hilly, country roads). I have plenty of opportunities for coasting with engine on, but not for engine off coasting (at least that I'm comfortable with not having a kill switch).

This tank I'm turning the engine off at each stop to see if that makes a noticeable difference. An Ultragauge (probably, still researching the different brands) is in the near future. The other technique that will really pay off is getting used to starting out in first without over-revving the engine. :o It's been years since I've had a stick shift.

@ MetroMPG, I read another thread of your eco-driving lessons. You mentioned that during your demo drive you had the highest average speed for the fuel used. That was an interesting observation, and it confirmed my sense that the fastest speed for the lowest rpms is most efficient.

I also liked your comment that the steep part of the improvement curve was the fun side. That's a bit inspirational. :)

When I started delivering pizzas, one of the guys told me that I should be glad if I had an automatic, because I would come to hate driving a stick-shift. I'm so glad I have a manual, though. It's way more fun and interesting to drive, especially as I'm trying to up my mpg-- there's just so much more fine control over stuff like shift points and coasting.

I just saw that modern fuel injected cars use the same amount of fuel sitting for 7 seconds as they do to start up so really anything over 7 seconds would save fuel then

Does that account for the loss of battery charge from starting the vehicle? I'd think the alternator would take add another couple seconds to the equation.

This is exactly how I drive & it works wonders, even here in DC. No real difference in city/hwy MPG.

Most of the OP's fuel is likely wasted during acceleration & mastering the manual should make a noticeable difference. In more rural situations when getting up to speed, shift as early as possible & don't be afraid to dive into the accelerator. Just keep those RPM's as low as possible w/o lugging the engine.

Also when in stop & go traffic, tame the wave as much as possible to avoid complete stops. Accelerating from a 1-2 MPH creep is much better than from a complete stop.

If you see the light is going to be red when you get there, key off before arrival; that time counts toward your payback.

I know the CX is pretty light already but if there's any weight you can remove, you would see big results from not having to bring that extra mass back up to speed all the time.

First step: what's in the trunk? My younger boy was complaining about poor mileage in the truck and I pointed out that for the last three months, he'd been giving his old, to-be-tossed mattress a free tour of the city.

All that stop and go, I'd scour Craigslist or the local pick-a-part yards for a set of Civic VX wheels. And some 155/80/13 tires. Even if you only found a pair of VXs, it'd be a start. Cut that unsprung rotational mass as much as possible! Synthetic oil at your next oil change couldn't hurt either, same goes for the gearbox. :snail:

In updated news, I've been getting a pretty good average of 37mpg (36ish, 38.5, 36, and I'm working on another tank which I expect to be up).

I'm definitely going to install a kill switch, I just have to find a switch that isn't too obtrusive, and wait for the weather and my schedule to clear up (I don't have a garage to work in, and it's currently snowing/raining...).

My rural town doesn't have much in the way of stop-and-go traffic jams, so I don't get much chance to "tame the wave", and I do try to avoid having to stop for lights as much as possible, and keying off when I know I'm going to have to wait at a red.

I've actually been surprised that being heavier on the accelerator pedal doesn't make a noticeable difference in my mileage. As far as shifting early, I generally hit 2nd as soon as possible, 3rd @ 20-25, 4th @ 30-35, 5th @ ~45.

I wouldn't mind having a set of lightweight wheels, but as I've mentioned before, my budget is about this big |---|. So unless they're free or under $15-20, it will break the budget. And I don't have anything extra that I'm carrying around besides the spare, toolkit, and first-aid kit. None of those are extraneous.

Sounds a little late for best efficiency.Not sure, how low your car is geared, but I generally shift between 1500-2200 RPM. RPM's kill MPG's.

3rd-15-20 MPH
4th-25-30 MPH
5th-35-40 MPH

In heavy stop & go traffic, I tend to go lower to avoid constantly shifting. If only very slow acceleration is needed I will go down to 1000 RPM's.

I don't have a tach...so I generally shift based on sound/speedometer, whilst keeping in mind the factory recommended lowest shift points (which, for mine, are 4th @ 33, 5th @ 48). I'll sometimes cruise downhill in 4th at 25mph (when I can do so with only minimal load), or go 20mph in 3rd (in the same conditions).

35mph in 5th *feels* like lugging to me. But then, I'm not sure what the actual definition of "lugging" is, exactly. Is it lugging the engine to drive up a hill in so high of a gear at such a low speed that the engine can't maintain speed (such as uphill at 25 mph in 3rd)? Or is that something else? Is it lugging if the engine speed drops below idle at that speed in that gear? Or is it only lugging when the vehicle lurches with each cylinder firing?

You sure know when you're lugging an 3-cylinder! :D You definitely get an engine note & vibration that isn't nice (as well as not being able to increase or maintain engine RPM when needed).

I'd say the factory shift recommendations aren't in "hypermiling" territory.

I haven't met a 5-speed that won't cruise (on the level) in top gear at 25-30 mph. It probably won't climb or accelerate from that speed without lugging, though -- that's what downshifting is for.

Lugging an engine (in my opinion) is when you press the throttle further you get no change in acceleration. That applies if you need to accelerate, just maintaining a speed you can go very low in RPM, but need to downshift if you want to increase your speed.

My VX would max out at 120 MPH in 3rd gear (theoretically) but would also pull away in 5th gear at 30 MPH (1000 RPM).

regards
Mech

To be fair to the Honda Motor Corp.... they have two sets of recommended shift points-- one set for "normal driving" (rather high, imo), and one for "cruising" (much more reasonable, and on the low side); I quoted the "cruising" shift points.

Hm. Is lugging actually harmful to the engine, or does it just result in poor performance-- no acceleration and a terrible sound/feel at the time? I really don't want to break my car by experimenting with shift points...

In other news, I just filled up...36.6 mpg.

Even Honda's "cruising" shift points aren't really ideal for maximum fuel economy.

Prescribed shift points are a big reason why it's so much easier to beat the EPA rating with a manual than an automatic.

You definitely won't hurt the engine by upshifting to the highest possible gear while cruising under light load. You're not going to break the car if you lug it once in a while.

If you want power, just downshift.

Well, I'll have a go at earlier shift points, then. I just filled up, I'll do a tank of shift-to-5th-asap, and see what I get.

Meanwhile, I've got a check-engine light, so I'm seriously considering ordering a scangauge in order to check and reset the codes instead of paying a shop to tell me what the codes are.

I think Advance Auto Parts (and probably others) will read your codes for free. Not meant as advising against getting a scan gauge.

regards
Mech

I'd definitely recommend you get a gauge! I didn't realize you didn't have one yet. It'll turn this fuel saving business into a fun game, and it'll pay for itself. It's a worthy investment, whether you go for the ScanGauge or UltraGauge, doesn't really matter, technically. (I think the UG reads codes too, yes?)

Regarding not having a tach, a Scangauge/Ultragauge doesn't make the greatest tach because of the lag/refresh rate. Swapping in a different gauge cluster that has a tach would be the best route. I used one from a CR-V in the '97 Civic I had.