DIY Open Source Plug-In Hybrid
 

Hello everyone!

I have decided on a new project.

For the last few years, I have somehow managed to fall into the world of home-built electric vehicles, renewable energy, and DIY ecology.

For a guy with absolutely NO EXPERIENCE working on cars, I managed to stumble my way through building an electric motorcycle and an electric car.

And I love hybrids! They do save gas - but there's the problem right there - they USE gas. An electric is nice because it totally does away with that, but an affordable homebuilt EV ends up having a pretty short range. (Which is actually just fine and a very practical vehicle for somebody in a city.)

I've also played around a bit, experimenting in my Electro-Metro by adding a generator to it. Which would have worked much better if I had ever really gotten that generator running right. Unfortunately, the Metro is a bit small to simply throw a generator of the right size in there. My experiments lead me to the thought that a home-built plug-in hybrid could be an excellent project and very good transportation, as long as it was PLANNED AS A HYBRID in the first place.

My situation is most likely not an uncommon one either. I live only a few miles for town, but 35-40 miles away from the big city ( 80+ miles round trip is common.) There are plenty of times where I only have to go a few miles, and would love to not fire up an engine at all. But there's also times that I have to drive a distance that my Electro-Metro couldn't reach in it's wildest dreams.

Thinking about it, a vehicle like a Chevy Volt would actually work pretty well for me. Other than that I have no money for one. And the Volt still runs on gas after it's 30-40 miles of batteries. I'd really prefer to be able to run on any sort of alternate or bio-fuel.

The other thing that has been really amazing is all the people that I have met while working on my projects! All sorts of amazing folks who know motors and diesels, and machining, and batteries and all the other fun things I've been learning about. Especially the electronics. Those are really fun! (Just a couple days ago, I got to destroy, er, beta-test a 1000A DC motor controller!)

So, here is what I am proposing...

THE DIY OPEN SOURCE PLUG-IN HYBRID PROJECT!

We have all the skills, tools, and brainpower to do this with people right here on this forum.

So, the plan is:
Build a vehicle that can run on batteries or liquid fuel (preferably bio-fuel when available), build it affordably, and share how it's done.

Main components of the vehicle will be either "off-the-shelf" for cost savings and availability due to mass-manufacture - or - DIY Open Source components to custom create the unique parts required for the project.

The mechanics of the vehicle must be relatively simple - no made from scratch planetary transmissions. Electronics can be wildly complicated, as long as we have somebody who knows what they are doing designing them. Schematics for electronics can be easily replicated for other people to build a similar project.

Right now, I am leaning towards a plug-in parallel hybrid, using lead acid batteries. Here's why. Lead-acid is cheap, reliable, and available. Should somebody see the project and realize how cool it is and want to donate a large sum of money THEN I would happily upgrade the system to Lithium batteries. (Note to self... please design system to make it easy to upgrade to Lithium batteries...)

A parallel hybrid system has a few advantages that people often don't think about. It could be designed to run on EITHER the Electric OR the ICE system. If one part fails, you can still drive home. Especially nice feature when I am in the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!

Properly designed a driver would simply use whichever system is more appropriate at the time. For example, you could have a switch on the dashboard that says EV/ICE. Flip it to EV for in town, and ICE for the freeway.

The Electric system would use either an AC motor or a BRUSHLESS DC motor. I have enough experience working with DC motors that I would like to continue on and learn all about AC and/or brushless DC. Either one makes a much better generator than a brushed DC motor does. This will allow for not just regenerative braking, but also CHARGING WHILE CRUISING.

Another thing I would like to do is MAKE IT FOUR-WHEEL-DRIVE. If two drive axels are used, the gas/diesel engine could be connected to one set, with the electric motor connected to the other. This would allow for four wheel drive, which is great for snow and off-road, and can also provide additional torque for quick starts.

Using two driven axels would also make it simple to propel the vehicle at freeway speeds with the ICE, while the AC motor is set to light regen. This would recharge the battery, while also loading down the engine, with a little planning, this could be used to get the engine into its "sweet spot" of fuel economy. If an AC motor with an appropriate range of RPM is used, it ALSO could be used to propel the vehicle at freeway speeds. Microproccesor control could be used, checking battery voltage, to turn the engine on and off, and alternate between using the ICE and electric motor to propel the vehicle at full freeway speeds. Think Pulse-and-Glide, but with the electric motor filling in to keep you from slowing down!

One possible way of doing this whole project would be to start with a front-wheel drive car, with engine and drivetrain in just the front. The rear axle could get replaced with a driven rear axle, where the electric motor would be attached. A properly chosen motor should be able to get connected more or less directly to the differential.

I did manage to find a person whole has two Volkswagon Rabbit Pickup trucks. Those are front-wheel drive, with small diesel engines. Small diesels get great fuel economy, and could be run on diesel, bio-diesel, or (with a few small alterations) straight vegetable oil. On the rear, it's just a plain axle with leaf springs. That could easily be replaced with a rear-end from a small rear-wheel drive pickup truck, such as an older Toyota or Mazda. The pickup bed would allow for space for the batteries, motor controller, charger, etc. (A station wagon would also have many of the same good characteristics.)

I am NOT saying that's the only way to go, just that it meets some of the criteria I've been thinking about. I want YOU to weigh in with your best ideas on the ideal vehicle to use, and how to cruise it down the road.

I'm very serious about this project. This is not one of those threads with "Well, I've been thinking about this...." and nothing ever comes of it. I've created two real-world vehicles so far, which were both affordable and practical. I'd really like to build something that can combine practically, range, and minimize fossil fuels.

The Open ReVolt motor controller would be a great start for the electric side of the project. Of course it would have to be an AC or brushless DC version, but the cost savings and Open Source nature of it would be perfect.

Anyone working on a DIY battery charger, please chime in! An AC system is going to be at least 156V, and we'll need a charger to match. Ideally, one that can charge from 120V AC (60hz) and 240V in and selectable amp draw of 15A up to 30A+

Anyone who is knowlegeable on diesels, generators, bio-fuels, please add to the project!


And what good is a homebuilt vehicle that gets better fuel economy than a Volt or Plug-in-Prius while costing far less, if you DON'T SHOW IT OFF! That's why this vehicle is going to some big events this summer! (Assuming it can be built in time. But I already told them the Team Ecomodder is "bringing it!" so now we gotta!)

Events include driving the car to and showing it off at:
Midwest Renewable Energy Fair
Green Drive Expo (and competing in the "unlimited class" of the fuel economy challenge)
Mother Earth News Fair (There were no less than TWO X-Prize contestants and cars there this last year.)

And here's the new thing. A while back, I started a thread saying how I wanted to do "Something Big". I didn't know what, but wanted to do something related to fuel economy and DIY culture, with some social networking and video/film thrown in. Not long ago, somebody was interested in having me build an electric car, drive it cross-country, and make a film about it. While nothing has come of that, it did make for a nice little mock movie trailer. (See that HERE) But more importantly, it really got my brain going.

Frankly, there have been many events that feature a drive across the country. What happens when I get to the end? I would just have to turn around and drive a few thousand miles back home. That sure doesn't make sense from a fuel-use point of view! Also, here in the middle of the country, we sometimes get left out a bit. All the EVs come out on both coasts first. All the new movies appear there first. How about something here in the Mid-West, or near the Third Coast as I like to think of it. Yeah, you heard me, we have some GREAT LAKES here.

I propose to drive the DIY Open Source Plug-In Hybrid AROUND Lake Michigan! That's about 1000 miles on varying terrain through four States (plus tagging Canada on the way) and dipping my toes in Lakes Superior and Huron while I am at it. I can charge it up at campgrounds in Mighigan's Upper Penninsula, and at real EV Charging Stations in downtown Chicago!

A circle makes sense, it arrives back right where it starts from, just like an electric circuit or the water cycle. The event will be called "LOOP THE LAKE" - and will be a do-it-yourself fuel economy challenge. I'll be twittering the whole way and shooting video, documenting fuel use, where I charge and gas up, and meeting all the interesting folks along the way!

Want to challenge me? Please do! Start anywhere you want - just make sure you end back up where you started, and no cheating by taking a ferry!

If anyone knows anything about getting sponsorships for a crazy event like this, let me know! (I've got 1.5 million views on YouTube so far, that must be a good start.)

So, who is with me!? Raise your fist with a cartoon lightning bolt in it and say YES! I will be encouraging! YES, I have ideas on how to make this happen! YES, I would send you money or components or schematics or positive feedback!

I really, really, mean it.

-Ben

I would like to throw my hat into the ring, on both sides:D. I'm willing to give any advice I can when applicable, and continue with my alternate fuel build, at the same time. I'll be on both teams, and therefore, can't lose:thumbup:.

I've thought about both these options. The series hybrid or ghetto volt (EV with a generator mounted somewhere) and the parallel drive idea.

Both have their advantages. The series hybrid is simple and would work great when extended range is rarely needed. I think a gas gennie would work best as power to weight ratios are important.

The parallel hybrid would be cool as well. The simplest way to go would be with a vehicle that has AWD as an option. Most of the small SUVs fit this description. That way you get one with FWD and go to the boneyard for rear drive parts from an AWD version.

Of course, these vehicles aren't the lightest out there, so going with a lighter FWD rig would probably be better. It would just require some fairly decent fabricating skills for the electric rear axle.

I really think this parallel idea should be done by automakers. Someone with a lot of AWD experience like subaru would be perfect. I believe such an AWD system would be more efficient than a traditional AWD system.

I also think ther could be a market for a well done kit which could be installed on existing FWD cars, giving them the advantages of AWD and hybrid economy.

For batteries, I think NiMh might be the way to go. Lead acid is cheap, but, so damn heavy. I think NiMh gives the best bang for the buck regarding weight/cost.

For the series hybrid, I would like to see someone build a gennie using a motorcycle engine. A 250 cc single cylinder out of a dirt bike should make enough power to push a metro sized car at reasonable speeds (40-50 mph). I don't know if it would have the grunt to push it at freeway friendly speeds. Might need to go to a 450 for that.

I think such a gennie might be kept light enough to be portable, but, i'm not certain about that. It would be nice to not have to tow it around for short trips.

if not, another option might be installing it on a light trailer. You can get them for about 300 bucks new at harbor freight. i bought mine used for 50.

GO BEN !

The VW pickup sounds like a good start. Swapping in a 1997 up TDI will help FE, parts, etc. A wrecked Golf would be a good donor.
If you make the dash switch positions ICE/both/EV you will have a 4WD for the winter as well.
Of course you will need to have BamZipPow come and do some Aero work !

I also love the VW Rabbit P/U (Caddy) idea. That's why mine is out back waiting for money and time to do a similar project. Good luck I will be following this.

You know I'd love to help out on the project. :)

156V system that can pull decent amperage is going to be quite heavy with lead and take up a lot of room. I'm guessing you want some decent capacity though, not just a couple kWh pack? If you only need ~1kWh there is someone on craigslist in milwaukee selling an 06 Prius battery pack for $350. It is around a 240V pack.

I also have that AC motor controller (same as Tom's neon) that I picked up for a good deal off ebay, and that spool of 1 or 2 ga wire. I'm not using them (and don't know how soon it would be until I got to use them), so they are for sale and were very reasonably priced (which is why I picked them up).

Neat idea, Ben.

While reading your thoughts about potential host vehicles PLUS your desire to use a renewable liquid fuel...

What about your Chevy S-10 diesel pickup?

Bio-fuel capable: check!
Capacity to carry a heavy lead-acid battery pack: check!
Additional OEM axle available (front) for parallel electric 4 wheel drive: check!
Already have it: check!

You've secretly been reading my mind....

That is another vehicle possibility.
The "Bio-diesel Pickup Project" has been sitting around for a while. I have the truck, the engine, the transmission, and the custom clutch plate. The big part is figuring the adapter plate, and marrying everything together, then getting it back in the truck.

If it were a front-wheel drive truck, I think I might already have jumped on finishing the diesel conversion and adding an electric system.

I have no idea what it would take to change out a front axel. I would imagine that it would also need the transfer case, and then suspension to match. That sounds like it starts to get complicated.

The EMIS system uses a series-would DC motor IN THE DRIVESHAFT as a "booster" for a gasoline engine. That wouldn't make for regenerative braking or freeway cruise-charging, nor would it give me four-wheel drive (which would be pretty cool!) but I wouldn't have to go to 4x4 components on the front of the vehicle either.

I really haven't seen any AC or brushless DC motors with a nice big tailshaft on them that could be hooked right onto a shortened drive-shaft.

I'd like to use something other than Lead-Acid, but I just don't think there's budget for it. Charging is a little less tempermental with lead-acid as well, and I have a feeling that may become an advantage for cruise-charging.

I know of at least one current AC motor designed to run on 156V. (The old Solectrias all ran that voltage as well.)
I saw a brushless DC motor that I think would be powerful enough that can run on 96V.

Daox, the motor controller that you have, do you know if that can run on lower voltage? Tom's car is running around 300V - now THAT's a lot of lead to be dragging around.

JasonG's comment "Swapping in a 1997 up TDI will help FE, parts, etc. A wrecked Golf would be a good donor." might also apply to the potential use of a Rabbit Pickup. The guy I know who has the pair of them also has another VW engine kicking around. I think it's a TDI (2L?) While larger displacement, I would LOVE to use a turbo!

As for any comments earlier about trailer range-extenders, I want to avoid that. In theory, they are a good idea - only have it when you need it, etc. In practice, trailers are one more thing that you need a place to store it in, and you have to connect and disconnect them. One thing that I have found in my vehicle experiments is that things just have to work AND THEY MUST BE CONVENIENT. A pusher/generator trailer is a good idea for a single long-trip for an EV, but not the best solution for an all-purpose daily driver. That said, they are kinda cool and I would love to see one somebody designed in the real world. Mr. Sharkey has one I thought was pretty cool. Come to think of it, that was built from a Rabbit too!

PS - If a pickup truck was used as the final body style, an aerodynamic cap would be used to cover the bed.

And I'll need to find somebody to teach me fiberglassing.... :thumbup:

I'll have to ask Tom. He has the literature for it but it doesn't seem to be real clear as to what the min/max input voltage is for it. I know we hooked it up at the makerspace and I'm assuming that that was 3 phase 240V input.

I think I'd also start by making a list of other DIY plug-in hybrids.

See if you can improve somebody else's wheel, rather than re-inventing it completely!

Just looked up the specs on the controller. The literature says 200-240VAC which I'm told by an engineer at work needs to be multiplied by 1.35 to get the actual DC voltage that is used after the power is rectified. So, that brings us to 270V DC. Talking with the electrical engineer here he didn't seem to think that it would hurt the controller to try out lower voltages. It will simply set off an alarm on the controller.

I did send an email to the mfg. We'll see if I get a reply.


Edit: Corrected formula

Anyone have some good links for other DIY Hybrids? Please post them here!

If I want to be able to "cruise" at 55mph+ and have the ability to do that at least some of the time on the motor, instead of the engine, I'll need to know how many horsepower are required to do that.

Can anyone help with some horsepower calculations? For now, let's assume that we want to use either a VW Rabbit Pickup, a Subaru Outback stationwagon, or Chevy S10 pickup truck. How many HP are needed to push those vehicles down the road at 55mph? Then we can find a motor - AC, DC, or brushless DC powerful enough to do that. We also need to figure in the RPM range of the motor for how it would be connected to the vehicle, and the gear ratio required. Does anyone have a link for a good HP calculator?

Once we figure on a motor, a matching controller can be found/bought/built to go with it.

I'm late to the thread, maybe I'll have more time to contribute later but:

A) I am a mechanical engineer, I'd be happy to lend Design/Modeling/Drafting/FEA services.

B) Regard a vehicle for an AWD hybrid... choosing something that has a longitudinal mounted motor is a poor choice as you have the drive losses of the 90deg bevel gearset. This would eliminate Subarus, S10, etc. Something that is FWD based would be a better start as the FWD engine/trans could be left intact, while AWD rear components could be sourced/modified.

A Honda Civic can be converted to AWD through some fab and use of CRV rear components connected to the electric motor for example. Or just start with a CRV. Many FWD SUV Crossovers are like this (and this is exactly how the RX400h works - ICE front, EV rear).

Also when connecting to the rear diff , it would be worthwhile to machine a straight/helical gear to replace the bevel ring gear on the diff. This would again eliminate the 90deg turn in the driveline which is a significant loss contributor.

My gut feeling is the easy button is a FWD crossover, or a Civic/Integra with CRV parts out back. Getting further into home-fab, you could simply make a frame to mount a Miata crossmember under the back of almost any fwd car. Not sure how much $$ you want to spend on a donor vehicle.

Edit:

C) HP calcs are easy. Make sure you take into account grade-ability. I can help with this if necessary. I have spreadsheets for this, and also spreadsheets for simulating all of the drive-cycles, provided you have a BSFC chart for the ICE.

Just respoke with the electrical engineer here and he corrected himself. You have to multiply the AC voltage by ~1.35 to get DC voltage. So 270V looks to be the minimum per the literature.

Great, lets start that list:

XR-3 - Plug-in Parallel Hybrid you can buy plans for.

Poorman's Propane Serial Hybrid.

Mike's 5th Wheel Honda Insight

The original Mother Earth News Hybrid

http://howtobuildahybrid.com/ (Looks like some good info coming on this project, but not updated on their web page yet.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ress-5599.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...pgs-19823.html (though he doesn't post details of his build on EM)

Jeffrey M. Reiss' 2004 BMW 530i EMIS

David Hrivnak's 2004 Chevrolet Avalanche

Douglas Hartley's 1994 Skoda Favourit Elta Pickup

A builder in the Ottawa EV community has hybridized both a Miata EV and a Cavalier EV:

Alain St-Yves' 1997 Chevrolet Cavalier

Building the "Zero-Carbon Car" out of a Miata, incl. biodiesel hybrid drivetrain

Vehicles I would look at using would be a Dogde AWD minivan, the Honda Civic WagoVan, Toyota Corrola 4wd station wagon, or a 4wd Ford Ranger pickup truck.
If you get a 1996 or newer vehicle a friend of mine who is computer engineer likes the idea of working on an Arduino based OBDII plugged in motor controller, of course it's looking like tapping in to existing sensors might be just as easy and a bit cheaper.

The site power calculator is pretty good, just plug and chug the specifics (Cd, Crr, etc) of each vehicle.

In terms of the specific design, I'd shy away from a caddy because of the limited carrying capacity (~1000lbs IIRC). By the time the driver, motor, controller and rear end are in there you'll only have enough weight for about 25 miles of electric range.

Given LA batteries to start out with I think a better bet is something like a basjoos style compact body on a 4wd pickup truck frame. Put an old VW diesel engine in up front and hang a big DC motor behind the transmission. If someone is an absolute whiz with shift linkages, or if we could somehow adapt or create an automated shifter, we could shave off a hundred + pounds and increase overall efficiency by mounting the diesel drivetrain transversely, and doing the same to the electric but with a multispeed trans bolted to that as well. Old four speed manual transaxles don't weigh more than about fifty pounds or so, compared to the couple hundred a RWD drivetrain weighs, and multispeed transmissions can significantly increase DC motor efficiency at lower speeds/higher loads.

I third the Caddy being a bit small for this build. Swapping out the front of the 2wd truck to 4wd isn't any harder than other ideas that are being kicked around, especially with the right donor vehicle. Also, if you can get 40+ mpg out of an S-10 truck, that would definitely get some attention.

Of the links that MetroMPG posted, this one Douglas Hartley's 1994 Skoda Favourit Elta Pickup seems to be closest to what I was thinking.

Any of the EMIS systems that I've seen posted all look to be rather expensive, while adding NO "electric only" range - just an electric boost at in town speeds. The two links showed the cost of adding the EMIS system as being $10,000 and $15,000 of cost added on top of the vehicle.

Also, the rear-wheel drive connection with a series-wound motor doesn't provide for regeneration. I think that for a plug-in hybrid, regen would be an important feature, not just for start and stop, but for cruise-charging as well.

Can somebody with a better understanding than me of various types of electric motors help me with something? In people that I have talked with so far, it seems to come up that a DC Series-Wound motor has enough torque to bolt it right to the rear differential of a car and drive it directly. DC motors are usually lower voltage than AC (so fewer batteries)
Apparently, AC motors don't produce as much torque, so you still need a transmission and be able to go through the gears to produce the torque to give you the required torque to accelerate.

Does that sound about right? How about a shunt-wound motor, or brushless DC?

It seems to me that a series hybrid is pretty straight forward - build an electric car (AC/DC, front-wheel/rear-wheel, doesn't really matter) and add an appropriate generator.

To do a parallel hybrid, it becomes more complicated, but also opens up more possibilities - does the electric motor go on the front or the back? Is the ICE front-wheel or rear-wheel drive? How to arrange for cruise charging?

Of vehicles that I already have access to....

I could just add a generator to the Electro-Metro. My experiments with the LP generator showed that it can work, but I didn't care for the noise, I didn't have an ideal place to mount the LP tank, and I never got that used generator to run as well as it was supposed to. The car would still be powered by a brushed DC motor. That means brush-wear over time, and no regenerative capabilities. But no regen is not a big deal when there's a generator in the trunk. It would be a BAD setup for big hills. I test drove a RAV-4 electric in skiing country in Pennsylvania. Without the regen on the AC motor in that vehicle, I would have been on the brakes the whole time going down those hills!

That wouldn't be too bad in my area, as there's not a whole lot that's super-steep, but if I wanted to drive-it across country (out to the Mother Earth News Fair at Seven Springs, PA, for example) it would be a problem.

I think a generator like THIS would work (as long as I kept my speed reasonable.) I measured, and it would fit in the Metro. I'd still have to do a fair amount of sound-proofing, routing the exhaust, etc.


I also have a Chevy S10 pickup truck. It has a 2.2L gas engine and 5-speed manual transmission, 2-wheel real-wheel drive. I have an old diesel engine, naturally aspirated 2.4l from a Mercedes 240D. The plan for too long has been to put the diesel in the S10, to gain the fuel economy, possible use of bio-fuels, and other advantages that a diesel provides.

That's not an ideal setup for a hybrid, though. I could do an "EMIS-style" hybrid on it. I would be able to find a large DC series wound-forklift motor
at an affordable price. I think a friend of mine still has a 12" diameter one about. That motor could be run at 48V on up.

Since the transmission could get put in neutral, it would be very easy to run on just electric. (The EMIS system requires that the vehicle be automatic transmission and 1996 or newer to use throttle info from the OBDII.)

At that point though, the motor would be driving the differential AND spinning shaft going up to to tranny. Perhaps some sort of freewheel clutch could be used?

I still like the idea of a front-engine, front-wheel drive vehicle and adding a motor to the back end.

At this point, it seems like only a beefy series-wound motor would be the right thing to plop onto the rear axle. That wouldn't allow for regeneration. It would allow for a certain range on electric only, and firing up the ICE once the batteries are discharged. That would basically be a parallel version of the Volt (plus the potential advantage of four-wheel drive.)
Without use of non-fossil fuels, that's not much of an advantage over something a person could just run out and buy right now.

If it was a front-wheel drive hybrid, with a diesel engine (for fuel economy and ability to run on bio-diesel or veggie oil) it could be a vehicle to use ZERO fossil-fuels! Now that's starting to get into advantages over a Volt or Plug-in Prius!

What about regeneration though? It seems a shame to not be able to capture/recapture some of the energy from the ICE system. How about an alternator that runs a charger for the battery pack (or custom, high voltage output alternator) to load the engine a bit at cruising speed? Good idea, or starting to get too complicated?

Keep your thoughts and ideas coming!

Oh, another thing I keep thinking about, but forget to mention is power steering/power brakes/ and anything else that normally runs off the engine.

In an electric car with a generator added, all those things are already designed to run without the engine. (My Metro has manual everything, except for power brakes, which was easy to correct by adding a small electric vacuum pump.)

In a parallel hybrid where a person would want it to be able to run either with the engine on or not, steering and brakes would need to be manual to start with (more typical on a lighter/older/simpler car) or converted to manual (such as swapping out the steering mechanism) or converted to electric (like I did with the power brakes on the Metro)

For me, starting with the manual everything vehicle would be the easiest way to go. A modern, front-wheel-drive crossover might be the MOST difficult to convert to still have steering and brakes with the engine off. I think that's also one reason why the EMIS system is designed as a "boost" instead of having any electric-only range - it means the original steering and braking systems never have to be modified in any way.

Here's another hybrid link I missed:
Brucey's Electric Assist - a belted plug-in hybrid

I read through the entire thread, as there was plenty of good general hybrid discussion, including a reference to diesel front-wheel-drive.

I dunno about a shunt wound motor, but I think PM motors are too wide to package inline with a RWD output shaft at the power outputs needed, although they can do regen.

IMO the easiest way to do everything is to drop a small diesel into your S10, run manual accessories, put a series DC motor behind the trans, and run regen off of the driveshaft (Unfortunately the original link is gone but all the basic info is there).

You would need to fabricate mounts and an adapter for the engine, DC motor, and rewound alternator, plus all the stuff on the EV side that you're already familiar with. It would be the least amount of work, but also less efficient and slower because the DC motor will be pulling more current at lower speeds than one connected to a transmission, and the engine would need to go through the relatively inefficient RWD setup to put power to the road.

Running two separate FWD setups would be more efficient (unless you choice of transaxles is really limited), but you would need to fabricate way more stuff, and unless you could automate the shifting of the motor somehow (without an automatic transmission since that would trash any efficiency improvement) that would be a pain, although doable since the engine and motor would have significantly different shift points. For a common and suitable pair of VW transaxles (ASF for the engine and GC for the motor) the shift points for the engine would be at 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 mph, while the transmission for the motor should shift at 25, 40, and 60 mph for best efficiency. It would be kinda weird if you were using both, but I guess e-2nd, e-3rd/m-2nd, e-4th, m-3rd, e-5th, and m-4th wouldn't be impossible. Kinda like driving a 4WD vehicle or big rig, just a bit more complex.

Oh, and spinning the output shaft of a RWD trans shouldn't induce too many losses, at least not enough to consider putting another clutch inline IMO.

So is the Diesel Conversion on your S10 not going to happen ? I thought that was a really cool idea. I have a friend who was looking at putting a VW TDI Into his, hooked up to a Toyota transmission.

No, I'm still planning on doing that. It's just been the big project on my "too many projects" list for a pretty good while.

If I did do an EMIS-style hybrid, I would do it with that truck with the Mercedes 2.4l diesel engine. With the manual transmission, I could do an "EV ONLY" mode with an electric motor on the back and power from the batteries, charged from the wall.

I'd need to do a power brakes setup similar to what I already did in my EV Metro, and I'd have to do something about the power steering in the truck.

Come to think of it. That setup would also create the "Ultimate Starter" as I could "bump-start" the transmission with the series-wound motor.

Another dumb question. I thought I heard that diesels don't create vacuum the same way that gasoline engines do, so if you swapped out a gas engine for a diesel, you'd have to account for vacuum for power brakes and the likes. If you had to do that anyways, why not convert to electric so that you could have a diesel-electric hybrid with working brakes, whether or not the engine was on? (Do I have that right at all?)

Yes they don't(create vacuum the same as gassers). The 1.6 I have has a vacuum pump where the distributor would be. I'm thinking of adding another tank for more vacuum containment once I swap over.

My understanding of regen is that it can extend your drive by at most around 10%, and that's just if you are doing stop and go traffic in the city. It has other benefits though, like almost eliminating the need for mechanical brakes. Separately excited DC motors can do regen as well as AC. You have 2 separate pwm signals. One for field A, and one for field B. I really need to learn my motor lingo. Field A can have a very puny power supply of just a few amps. If you keep field A constant, then you basically have the equivalent of a series wound DC motor. Lots of torque. I don't know how common they are though. I think that's what Damien has.

Some AC motors have plenty of torque to direct drive. But these could be (even more) expensive.

I've been thinking about the power vs manual brake issue for my up coming EV build. It seems to me that vacuum as the power is backward for anything other than gas ICE, where it was already available. It would be great if there was a electric boost or even a pneumatic (positive air pressure) brake booster. Air pumps are cheaper and easier to find, than vacuum pumps.

I believe the ideal layout for a parallel hybrid is a small diesel in the back geared high for cruise. Maybe with a PTO generator to charge as an option. With an AC motor driving the front wheels for the best regen potential. Use electric for all acceleration. Bring the diesel online above X velocity and let the electric coast anytime the diesel is enough. Nearly all braking could be done with regen through the front wheels and you have small drums in back to supplement and for parking. There would be no need for a starter on the diesel, just bump start. Probably no need for power brakes.
And in keeping with EV mentality- all the clean EV systems are up front and the dirty ICE systems in the back (under the bed?). Also this allows for decent weight distribution- heavier in the front, lighter in the back.

Paul- doesn't Jackbauer also use SEPEX? I agree that is a good alternative to AC.

Jerry at EV Weblog used a conventional DC motor wth a ZAPI controller in his first EV that gave him regen. Search around his site.

I just looked through there. The only reference I found to the Zapi was blowing it up.....

Even if you can do regen with a series-wound motor. I think you start to get into issues if you are going higher voltages, so that the brushes are advanced. That would also mean that you wouldn't want an electric reverse with advanced brush timing either.

AC motors avoid that issue, but require pretty high voltage, thus, MANY batteries (and their bulk and weight.)

Here's something I was wondering about.....

I was sort of imagining that a four-wheel drive ICE in front EV in rear parallel hybrid might use a pickup truck rear live axle, and have the electric motor more or less directly connected to that. Truck rear axles are simple, and there are plenty of them around.

I wasn't really thinking about what else was out there that was rear-wheel drive. The other day, I got an e-mail from somebody about "Has anyone ever done a VW Golf EV conversion?". Of course the answer is yes, and I pointed the person to the Volkswagen section of the EV Album. Once I was there, I realized that half of the VW EV conversions were Beetles - which were rear-wheel drive.

What would it take to put a VW Beetle rear-wheel drive system into a front-wheel drive Golf or a Rabbit Pickup truck?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the VW Beetle already has a long track record of EV conversion and is known for simplicity. I believe that the transmission/axle is right in the middle of the the two rear wheels, and that the engine comes out back behind the wheels, right? That sounds like a nearly ideal setup to add an electric motor to. I know that there are even already stock adapter plates a person can buy to go from the motor to the transmission.

Another thing I was wondering about is -
Series-Wound DC motors have lots of torque, but generally are not good as generators. If directly connected to the differential, there would also be unneeded wear on the brushes, as the motor would spin with the back wheels as the front-wheel ICE is propelling the car.

From what I hear, an AC motor directly on a rear differential just won't have the torque wanted for pushing around the car. It really needs the gearing of a transmission. But maybe not all the gears? Could it be adapted to just have LOW and HIGH for example?

If a series-wound motor was on a rear transmission, the tranny could be used to put it in neutral, and not have brush or bearing wear on the motor when in ICE mode.

How difficult fabrication-wise would it be to adapt a VW Beetle back-end to a Golf or Rabbit? It would have the advantage of being all metric, might even take the same size tires/rims/bolt pattern.

Your thoughts?

I would say: very difficult. :) I'd think you'd be better off compiling a list of 4WD vehicles and choosing from that. Unfortunately all the relatively light/non-truck ones I can think of are probably long gone (Tercel wagon, Honda Civic wagon, Subaru Loyale wagon, etc.)

Also we forgot to include this car on the list - probably the most complete DIY parallel hybrid (4WD) out there:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...iero-9156.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28CES5Zy_bQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PkKCI7Ycg

Dang, the front half of an EV-1! That seems like cheating. :rolleyes:

Hey Ben,
Here is a link to a Ford Escort Wagon hybrid. Since this site will not let me post a link, go to the world wide web dot evalbum dot com backslash 3257 and you will see a white 1997 ford escort with gas engine in the front and an electric motor and transmission in the back

http://www.evalbum.com/3257

Added the link - thanks for posting that, Electrify!

A small Subaru may work out nicely. They come in sedan and wagon form.

WOW! Great Link! That's the sort of thing I'm looking for!

That's a BIG electric motor in the back of that thing!

I hope this is the right thread to ask
on the ac motor rpm would you use higher rated rpm or smaller ?
I read somewhere use close to 1775 rpm because higher you lose torque is this true?
and
on hp if my ice motor is 155hp - 200hp then I would need at minimun ac motor 15 -20 hp
from what I have read in research is this true?

Thank you

Been busy with lots of other things lately.... Like trying to win Instructables contests... (hint, look at the first place NOT grand prize winner....)

But I was finally able to make it back to the Milwaukee Makerspace a few times lately, where I'm starting to work with the laser-cutter there. I'm hoping to be able to make a custom, logo-etched, clear plastic case for my 500 amp Open ReVolt controller.

A long while back, some of us went on a field trip and did a pick and pull of forklift motors. We ended up with 4 matched Crown 12" series wound motors. Right now, two guys are nearing completion on a pair of EV Ford Rangers, and another guy just started a Saab conversion with motor #3.

That only leaves one left.

http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...13323371620001

http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...13323371630001

Two main problems with a homebuilt EV or Hybrid. The average person just isn't impressed. Either they ask how far can it go, and then scoff, or they poo-poo the performance, and then scoff.

Rather than build something for efficiency, looks, or cool factor, what if it was built for both range and tire-burning ability?

A high-performance plug-in hybrid would be able to drive a great distance (on liquid fuel) but also have high-torque with a BIG electric motor!

I'm thinking that I take my S10, drop the Mercedes 240D diesel in there (I know, I've been talking about that forever!....) run the output of the transmission to that 12" forklift motor, and that to the rear differential.

No it won't have regen. Yes, it will be able to run on diesel, bio-diesel, maybe veggie oil, AND electricity.

I ran this idea past a couple other guys, and none of them thought I was insane.

The insane part is that I was disappointed that the 3 motor was going to be used because it meant that I didn't have TWO of them that I could Siamese-Twin together! This type of motor has both a driveshaft and a tailshaft, meaning that there are drives on BOTH ends to connect one motor to another or to and/or from a driveshaft.

Oh well, I'll keep my salvage buddies on the lookout for another one of those motors.

With just one, I'll only need ONE 1000-Amp Open Revolt to run it!