Drove a Leaf today
 

I was at the Nissan dealership today looking at the Versa since they advertise the stripped model at under 11k. I know the President well having worked with his father decades ago. They had a Leaf demo (marked demo on the window sticker) sitting there. Mr. Ayers (the President) suggested I take it for a ride. Went close to 5 miles. When I started it said distance to empty was 83 miles. When I finished it said DTE was 88 miles. Guess I created energy, LOL!

Shut off everything and the salesman riding with me was surprised that I could get the reading to actually rise 1 mile for every mile I drove. I love the car and could actually afford to buy one, but when you do the math and include total cost of ownership, it just can't come close to the Maxima when you count all costs. The property taxes would probably eat up the fuel cost savings.

It's a shame that I don't think the wife would drive it to work and her local jaunts, which burn about 8 gallons of fuel a week, or probably 3 recharges total. Stated fuel cost was $581 a year while we spend about $200 a month on fuel. I even have 220 in the garage already.

The old Maxima is pushing 29 MPG and will probably take about $1500 in repairs to reach 200k miles, when the current set of tires wears out. Another 2000 gallons of gas and you are at say $10,500 without insurance. Of course insurance would be higher and the property taxes would be at least 10 times as much.

Property taxes on the almost 13 year old Maxima are a joke.

I told them I might be interested in the demo when they got finished with it.

regards
Mech

I love imagining the saleman's expression when you boosted the charge while driving. But how did you explain it to him? I also don't know the leaf very well... I assume it has regen braking.

Interesting. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. I was an interview with a CEO of a big car dealership network (might have been Carmax, I don't remember). If I remember the statistics right he said around 70% of people who walk onto the lot say they might be interested in a hybrid. 2% of people actually buy one.

I think hybrids (and EV's for that matter) are cool, but with today's technology & cost, I think it doesn't make sense for most people from a dollars & cents perspective.

Buying a new car never makes sense from a cost perspective.

Using a battery warms it up. After the trip the warm. After the drive it gave a different reading once it cools it will show 78ish

The battery was fully charged and the DTE calculation was based on the projected range (83 miles). Driving to minimise energy consumption extends the DTE range calculation. It's nothing exceptional, just energy conscious driving which I have seen on other cars. Most with a DTE figure start out at the calculated DTE then modify it based on actual distance versus energy use.

I'll bet on my local route driven properly you could get to 120 miles on a full charge. I think my old 08 Altima started out at something like 444 miles on the tank. My best was over 600. Seen the DTE calculation go up many times. A cold start would nail it, then as I cruised at 47 in a 55 zone for 7 miles on a warm engine it would rise considerably.

regards
Mech

You drove it more efficiently than the previous person, and this changes the estimate on the dash. I drove a Leaf at a demonstration event, and it said 87 miles when I started and about 91 when I finished. I drove it about 2-3 miles.

Yep. The DTE indicator (affectionately called the "Guess-O-Meter" or GOM on the mynissanleaf forum) can fluctuate wildly based on how efficiently you've driven over the last few miles.

I'm getting about 3.8 mi / kWh out of mine as measured from the wall compared to 23 mpg at best in the car it replaced. Saves me about $3/day for my daily commute in gas and costs about half what my 46 mpg Prius costs in fuel so the Prius now gets driven less.

My brother and sister-in-law will take delivery of their Leaf later today or tomorrow. :-)

Congrats!

I'm still a bit surprised we haven't seen any real aero mods for the LEAF yet - one could probably easily pick up 20% highway range with a boat-tail mod or similar.

How true! I think if you plan on keeping your new car for 10+ years it may be more cost effective than purchasing a similar, but used car. Who keeps their cars for that long anyway?

Being a car guy (an ego-mechanical?), I have to realize that cars and motorcycles are my hobby. There are very few hobbies that make sense from a cost perspective. I might consider buying a leaf if it wasn't so ugly, regardless of whether it is cost effective or not. Actually, it definitely wouldn't be, as my wife and I only put about 12K miles/yr on our Matrix and I only put 2500 miles/yr on my ultra-short commute with my Volvo (the $h!t Brick). Even a cheap EV conversion makes little sense, cost-wise, but I am going to do it anyway!

Sunday evening I observed a very ugly vehicle parking on the street, but I didn't know what it was. Now I have come to learn it was a Nissan Leaf. I'm a "form should follow function" type of person, so I would give the hideous vehicle a pass if it had to look that bad for aerodynamic purposes, but with a Cd of .28, I expect a better looking car.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I believe my TSX looks quite nice, and it has a Cd of .27. How can an all electric vehicle with no radiator grill have a less efficient design than my car, which was likely designed primarily to look cool?

This car is certainly begging for a boat-tail, both aesthetically and aerodynamically.

...I do:

1974-to-1984 = '72 Pinto, 10 years
1984-to-1999 = '84 Honda, 15 years
1987-to date = '87 Astro Van, 25 years
1999-to-2009 = '99 Malibu, 10 years

:thumbup:

Eep! You are one of the smart ones. Your cars owe you nothing!

The LEAF has a tall hatch which greatly improves interior room. Traditional cars with a similar overall shape typically have a Cd in the low 0.3x range.

Could Nissan have made it more slippery? Definitely - but at the expense of function and cost.

For sure, an active grill shutter, lower ride height, more aerodynamic wheels, less head room all could have contributed to lower Cd (probably getting it down to Prius territory) but overall Nissan did a good job for their first iteration.

You would have to be extremely unlucky or just bad at making car buying decisions to end up spending more money buying used- ever.

Warning, worthless anecdote- I bought a 1996 Subaru Legacy with 119,000 miles on it that went through a quart of oil every 1000 miles and needed a clutch right away. Cost was $4k at the time. I drove it 8 years, averaging 29mpg, and got another 100,000 miles out of her before getting rear-ended. Insurance gave me $2.5K

Total costs excluding regular maintenance:

$1,500 car
$100 clutch

I didn't treat her nice either
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...9899ot1lsi.jpg

Perhaps buying a a brand new unreliable car is cheaper than buying a used unreliable car (I'm thinking European makes), since you get a warranty and parts are expensive, but then again if you are buying European in the US, you aren't concerned with cost in the first place.

Any plans to mod yours (to any extent)?

---


Audi's ICE-powered A2 had the same form factor (a "functional", conventional looking four door hatchback) yet scored Cd 0.25.

I think Nissan did a lousy job in the aero department! For one thing: if they'd extended the roof line, they would have INCREASED cargo volume and improved Cd. The hatch opening, however, would have been slightly smaller.

Obviously Nissan is aware of what can be done to improve the Leaf's energy consumption, and for the reasons stated (styling, bean counting and "consumer acceptability") they ended up with what they ended up with. EV's are new (mass market), but I look forward to the day EV makers start to compete with one another on energy efficiency as is happening with ICE vehicles these days.

That "range remaining" guess-o-meter has contributed to 2 somewhat negative Leaf press reviews that I've read (mainstream press). I think Nissan's doing a fairly poor job explaining the vehicle to journalists.

Both of the reporters I read panicked because (of course) they drove the car far LESS efficiently than the previous driver. As a result, they lost range at a faster rate than the distance actually traveled. Result? Panic! Declarations along the lines of "the electric car is not ready for prime time". No surprise there.

EVs are cool.
 

I don't know how it is where you live, but here in BC it seems that decent 3-5 year old imports (the only used car/truck I would buy...except for my $400 winter beater, of course!) hold their value way too well. Here they seem to depreciate at a rate proportional to the value on the odometer. For example (in Canadian Pesos):

a) Brand new Toyota RAV-4: $28K
b) 2007 Toyota w/65K miles: $21K

Supposing you run your car to 150K miles, car a) will cost $0.19/mile and car b) will cost $0.25/mile (as 65K miles have already been "spent"). THAT'S how my logic works in this area.

Sorry...this thread has completely lost its original purpose.

Back to the Leaf, then. I can't wait to see what EVs we'll see soon. Even if they aren't cost effective, they will hopefully be cool. Being cool while reducing pollution? That's DOUBLE cool! I'd buy that.

Not yet. The car's ugly enough, I don't need any coroplast or cardboard hanging off it. :p Probably eventually will end up lowering it to tuck the wheels into the wells a bit more - though primarily to stiffen up the ride a bit and not efficiency. If someone makes some decent looking, light and aero wheels in 16" I might consider them, but the cost would never make it worth while. The underbody is already basically flat - nothing to do there. Maybe some sort of grill block, but I suspect that keeping the motor/inverter as cool as possible also improves efficiency.

The A2 is not quite the same. It's roofline is basically the same as the Prius, complete with split rear window. No wonder they got a similar Cd.

Yes, by extending the top of the roof a bit they could have easily increased storage space a bit and perhaps picked up a few points of aero, but nothing significant without going to a split rear window.

I had a Subaru wagon before the LEAF and it was very similar in functional interior space, but it had a horrendous Cd.

As far as overall efficiency compared to other plug-ins, the LEAF barely beats the Volt (primarily because the Volt weighs nearly 2 TONs), the iMiEV slightly beats the LEAF (primarily because it has a small frontal area and is light) and the Tesla Roadster also beats the LEAF (also because it has a small frontal area and is light).

But the iMiEV and Roadster are not all that different than the LEAF so I'd say that Nissan did OK on it's first production EV.

Compared to the Fisker Karma (a hungry pig of a plug-in which uses nearly double the energy per mile of the other plug-ins) it's awesome. It's expected that the Tesla Model S will be a bit less efficient than the LEAF despite the far superior aerodynamics of it's body - I'd guess primarily because of weight and the HUGE wheels they are fitting it standard.

Nissan did some things to the Leaf that added more drag, like the odd shaped headlights, but they did this so the inside of the car would be quieter.

As a stereotypical American, I responded from my point of view and didn't consider that things may be different elsewhere. If one were to pay the asking price at a dealership here, then price does tend to scale in proportion to the miles on the odometer.

In the US, it is always cheaper to buy used from a private party, and often cheaper if you haggle at the dealership.

The first offer on the TSX I purchased was $23k, to which I laughed because it was 4 years old and a new one is $29k. I countered with $17k and they responded with $18k. 2 weeks later I drove it home for $17k. So the cost of not haggling would have been $6k. I could have bought the car for $16k private, if I could find one.

I learned of this as well when I took a peak at the Leaf online today. From a financial point of view, I would be less concerned with the efficiency of an electric vehicle when I am used to paying more for gasoline. In other words, the return on investment for improving the efficiency of a petrol vehicle is greater than that of an electric. However, I'd hate to fall short of my destination due to limited range caused by poor efficiency. So the question is, do I want slightly more range for the rare occasion that I need it, or less wind noise all of the time.

No moon discs then?

Are you aware of anyone doing any aero mods to a Leaf?

Right you are. I refreshed my memory at Google Images, and it's more Prius-y than I remembered - I'd forgotten about that hatch split glass arrangement.

I think the headlights were shaped to reduce the drag created by the outside mirrors. Many newer cars have similar protrusions, apparently with a similar purpose. Necessary until the regulations allow cameras to replace the mirrors.


regards
Mech

I'm embarrassed to say I've always felt that claim about the headlights/mirrors smelled to me more like styling & marketing than engineering.

I'd be happy to read some more technical information about it.

Tokyo Motor Show: Nissan LEAF Wins Japanese Car Of The Year | OSV Latest News

Could be you are correct Metro, but I see many other cars with somewhat similar headlight bulges.

regards
Mech

From what I remember seeing on a video clip about the design of the Nissan Leaf, they were saying that the headlights were supposed to push air out and around the mirrors so they wouldn't cause as much noise, that act of pushing air out and around would cause a bubble of stagnant, quite air around the mirror but it would also increase the effective frontal area of the car.
I would hope that at some point someone might make new, after market front ends for the Leaf to give it a smoother front end, or maybe a Versa front end would bolt on?

I've never heard Nissan claim that the headlights reduce drag, only that they reduce wind noise.

The Leaf has LED headlights? That's a surprise to me. I thought they did not exist. At 50w per vehicle, that beats my HID system by 20w. And apparently the whole headlamp was molded so that there is no lens, collector, or reflector... "a single thermoplastic part" (1)... so maybe the bulge is partly, also, about functionality of the light as a light?

The Leaf is quite an accomplishment in it's own right. A commitment many here would applaud as the first practical fairly mass produced all electric automobile in decades.

I think Nissan made compromises in the aerodynamic design to allow significant use of existing components. The market will decide whether it is a success or not. I can tell you this. It is quiet, comfortable and easy to drive. For its local commuter purpose I think Nissan felt like the aero portion of the equation was secondary to a practical 5 passenger vehicle, with capabilities most American drivers expect.

Let's see what they do next and give them a chance to refine the product. I know after driving it myself, I would seriously consider it as a vehicle that my family could use for virtually all of our local driving needs, which I believe was it's primary purpose.

With the potential for gas prices to rise dramatically due to international tensions, the appeal of a car without a gas tank, and hopefully stable electrical consumption rates, Nissan will see success in their success in providing the first alternative to liquid fueled vehicular transportation.

I wish them success.

regards
mech

There are good LED headlights: Truck-Lite 27250C 7" Round LED Headlamp
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jKxj4tRyL.jpg
Illuminati Motor Works 7 uses these, and they are excellent. I believe they also sell them at NAPA? I'm planning on using them in CarBEN EV5, as well.

That's something I've also read in a number of reviews. Some reviewers positively gush over how relaxing and luxurious it felt to drive such a quiet and smooth vehicle. (Particularly in the reviews by the non-gear-heads.)

One went so far as to say they think Nissan is missing out on a potential marketing angle: forget the "zero emissions" story. Sell it on its silky, delightful drive.

Wait, what? Property tax on a car? Like you have to pay taxes each year on a car, based on its value or something?

Even on my 41 year old 1971 Honda CB 350. Not much, say $12.50 a year but property taxes nonetheless.

regards
Mech

I'm a true gearhead, with professional race car building, and low volume production too.

I like the leaf, I like the way it drives, I like the technology. But, it came across as having an economy car look and feel. The interior was basic, and after a few years, would be as comforting as any aging econobox. Which is to say, not particularly appealing to someone willing to shell out big bucks for a small car.

My drive was short, about 10 miles, and covered both highway and back roads. It's acceleration seemed best between 20 and 50. It never felt underpowered. I very much like the feel of the instant throttle response, without any drama or downshifts.

The cornering power seemed a bit mild. I drive enthusiastically, and I was easily able to squeal the tires. I expected this. The car performs like it looks. That's OK. But if I were to own it, I'd eventually wish for more grip. It would go well with such a responsive electric motor.

The ride was also quite good. However, Florida roads are generally smooth.

Overall, it was a quiet ride, and quite pleasant.

You have to pay an annual tax every year here in Maine too-

They call it excise tax, as opposed to property tax. It used to be that it depreciated every year (and got cheap after 15 years or so). You used to pay $5 for something from the 1970's. Now, the law changed so that cars only "depreciate" 5 years as far as taxes are concerned. Regardless of mileage, condition, or market value, whatever the state's blue book said the car was worth when it was 5 years old is what you pay annually in addition to registration. So, my 89' volvo 740 costs me $110 or so a year in excise in addition to $40 registration fee, not to mention inspection.

It would be cost prohibitive for me to buy a leaf at this time in my life, but the same would be true of any new car. If I needed a new car, and had better income, I'd buy the leaf.

B

Gas is cheaper
 

I was hot on building an electric motorcycle until I started doing some math based on the data from the Leaf. It is stated to get 99mpge. My electricity costs $.16/ KWhr out the plug. It is cheaper to put gas in any car that gets 50mpgUS at $3.50/ gallonUS than to charge the Leaf. Not to mention the high initial price and battery overhead down the road. I would need a full 7.2 KWhr battery for my bike to make the round trip at 68mph which costs over $3000. The Leaf also can't make my round trip commute of 78 miles at 68mph. I will stick with my CBR250R and 2001 Insight for now.

Uh, not sure how you're calculating that. The LEAF is EPA rated at 34 kWh / 100 mi.

So to drive 100 mi you use 34 kWh at $0.16 = $5.44.

2 gallons of gas cost you $7.

But I've found with my LEAF I'm doing better than EPA estimates (never had that happen in a gas car) and getting around 28 kWh / 100 mi or $4.48 / 100 mi.

Round-trip commute of 78 miles is pushing it real close at 68 mph, but if you can charge at work it wouldn't be an issue at all and you could then limit charges to 80% which should make the battery last a very, very, long time.

Not cheap - but then you don't pay the full price of gas at the pump, either.

2 things-
How did you find out how much your electricity is per kw? Here there is a threshold, below x you pay y. Above x you pay z, etc. So at my current usage it would be 17 cents per kw but if I was using considerably more, the price would be less per kw.

Second, all of this math is dependent on the current price of gasoline per gallon... a figure that is volatile and could easily again be $4+ a gallon. I'd say that'd make the leaf far more realistic.

As for the range issue, you would be pushing it under "normal" driving. If you were willing to hypermile and had the extra time to slow down a bit, you'd likely be able to make the trip without plugging in.
B

Miles electric has a cost calculator that factors in the cost of the battery based on an estimate of it's life, if your comparing operating cost shouldn't that be a part of it.