E85 in a non flex-fuel vehicle
 

What are the pros and cons to running a non flex-fuel vehicle on E85?

As of now, I don't even know if I can get it in my area. I'm just wondering what I should expect to see.

Thanks

Straight E85 in a non flex-fuel vehicle will possibly throw the check engine light. In warm weather when the engine is warmed up it will run fine even if the dang light is on, although it probably won't give you full power at wide open throttle. That doesn't stop me from doing straight E85 fills for three seasons, cuz I don't use WOT. The colder it gets, especially sub-freezing, the more it doesn't want to start right up. On straight E85 I notice a drop in fuel economy, but not as bad as many people claim.

I have found, on my stuff, that a 50/50 E85/regular (which is E10 here) mix avoids just about everything I mentioned above- no CEL, WOT power, and also no loss of fuel economy. Last winter I did get in trouble with E85 in below zero temps. I don't remember how strong my fuel mix was but in the future I am going to stay away from E85 when I think it'll get below zero.

I have had no problems running my 14 and 16 year old vehicles on E85 for the last 3 or 4 years. No bad injectors, no plugged filters, no disintegrating lines or pumps. Some people claim E85 causes all these problems. Well I know what kind of luck I usually have, so it's not that I'm lucky.

I'm with Frank on this. I've run varing mixtures from E10-E85 although mostly E20 for 2 years no problems and better FE. The cars are 1999 or newer.:turtle:

it varys depending on the vehicle, some vehicles have worse results than others, for instance my dads 98 cavalier runs like dookie with e85 while some other vehicles will notice no real difference. it is worth checking out, most of the "negatives" associated with e85 are either myths or blown out of proportion.

Does anyone know the octane rating of E85? It might be cool to build a high compression motor to get the best of both worlds: higher FE and cheaper fuel.

- LostCause

according to this article on wikipedia it is 105
Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I first had a Subaru, I read the NASIOC forum, and there were guys with WRXs who experimented with E85, and concluded that it's great if you tune for it. Since it's equivalent to very high octane gasoline, it allowed really high boost pressures. Of course, for the Subaru WRX and STI, there is available an ECU-tuning device, so you can switch between modes optimized for different fuels, boost, etc., so it is relatively safe.


As an aside, if anyone is running a Yaris/Echo/Prius/xA/xB (they all have the same engine, except the Prius has different cams and timing, essentially) on E85, I'm curious to hear how it works out. I can't get it here, either, but I'd like to know.

I have seen fuel rails corrode through due to E85. But my friend ran straight E85 in his non flex fuel 94 Acclaim. I thought the car ran OK most of the time, though it did have some stumble issues now and again. That turned out to be a couple injectors leaking. Was it the E85? Don't know.

Guys, I've been running E85 in my non-flex fuel Saab since March. I'm documenting my experience in a blog:

www.drunkenswede.blogspot.com

The biggest problem with E85 is simple its availability. I'm lucky that I live behind a Meijer. They sell E85 at this location.

The high percentage of ethanol in E85 can destroy certain hoses and seals in your fuel system. At the minimum, you should replace your fuel lines with an E85-compatible material to prevent major leaks. Your fuel pump and injector O-rings may also need to be upgraded in order to ensure full compatibility.

Depends on the year of the vehicle. You guys running old stuff, maybe. But for some time the automakers have been designing for E10. A lot of the materials have already been "hardened" for the ethanol.

I think the biggest issue is will it throw a CEL, and is it really running lean or not? If you are going to go down this road, mix your E85 with gas so you don't get a CEL, or get a scangauge II to know what is really going on.

E85 in a non flex fuel vehicle
 

I have been running E85 at up to a 50% mix with unleaded regular in my unmodified '92 Roadmaster. When the engine is cold, I get a slight hesitation for a block or so, under throttle, until the engine warms up, then it runs fine....slight power drop off climbing steep hills. When this happens, I think about OPEC, who did not sell me half a tank of gas, smile, and push a bit harder on the throttle. This solves the problem quite well, for me.

At about a 20-30% mix, there are no problems at all. In town I loose about 2mpg overall, on the highway, I break even on a 50% mix. I do not run it at all when it is cold out, eg. Winter. It starts and runs too hard.


The only reason I mess with it at all, again, is that Ilike the idea of keeping at least some of the fuel production here in the US.

Running E85 in a newer car still under warranty will void that warranty, however, so I wouldn't use it in a newer car unless it is a flex fuel vehicle. Like Mr. Lee, I am not known for my great luck.

i ran it in my non flex fuel 2001 street miata. I notice some seat of the pants dropoff, but no MPG suffering until i get to about a 40% E85 / 60% 87 octane mixture.

Uhh just so people know, Blue Bomber is not the same as me ;)

I've hit the wall in my car at 50% ethanol. Long term fuel trim is maxed out, it won't go any higher. I have some cold start and throttle response issues.

So I'm going to probably back off to 30% ethanol or so. The car runs REAL well on E30. If there is a mileage difference, it is too small to notice. Power is good, no issues with cold start whatsoever.

E30 is like 95 octane or so, so you're getting premium fuel for about 20 cents a gallon less than regular.

Doesn't ethanol require a higher compression ratio to burn efficiently? I remember reading that in normal engines, it is not very efficient.

E85 has anywhere from 100 to 105 octane. Thus, you could easily build an engine with a very high compression ratio, which would raise the efficiency of the engine greatly.

The EPA did a study where they converted a Volkswagen TDI diesel engine to run on E85. They replaced the diesel fuel injectors with spark plugs, and used conventional port fuel injection. The TDI has 19.5:1 compression ration, and that was unchanged. They got upwards of 40% efficiency, same as a diesel.

Sadly, because E85 pumps are so rare, you can't buy an E85 only engine. A flex fuel vehicle has to be able to run on gas, so that precludes a very high compression ratio. Without that increased efficiency, a FFV running on gas gets crappy mileage, because ethanol has less energy that gas.

A loophole to E85 requiring high compression: turbocharged engines are well-suited to it, as it offers the same effects as a high compression ratio.

Saab has developed flex-fuel turbo engines that are allegedly optimized for E85.

I could see having a turbocharged car's ECU adjust the boost depending on the fuel.

I've a '93 Plymouth Sundance Duster (V6, auto, 150k) that runs awesome on 1-3 ratio of E85 to gasoline. Idle was smooth, engine ran cooler, stomp on the gas pedal and it goes! I'm thinking of going back to the ethanol mix again (just one local e85 station, open only on weekdays).

A Dodge dealer told me it wouldn't run on ethanol without $3000 worth of modifications. LOL

1. ethanol is harsher on rubber gas lines.

2. Ethanol is more prone to explosive issues

3. some groups are claiming e85 takes more to farm and convert in diesel then it actually produces. I find this unlikely, but can anyone offer some real evidence one way or the other?

E85 vehicles mitigate these issues with different gas lines (poly?) and fuel pumps with spark arrestors built in. In order to take full advantage of e85 based fuel the vehicles engine should have sufficient compression.

That said, i think the likliehood of a catastrophic failure is ultimately very low, and I suspect engine performance would drop off so significantly to most folks they wouldn't ever push this high of a ratio in. Most fuels in my neck of the woods have a high (15% or less) amount of ethanol in the regular petroleum anyway.

A couple additions, on the pro side. I have heard that ethanol "burns cleaner" and will leave less carbon deposit in the engine, any truth?

1. methanol is very corrosive on rubber and steel, though anecdotal evidence shows most "high pressure fuel lines" produced today have sufficient linings to resist wear from Ethanol.

2. I havent heard this, though it may be related to the evaporative quality of alcohol over gasoline.

3. using corn stock, when E85 first came around, it was very expensive because the process was not thoroughly designed. The use of grasses and sugar cane, woodstock, and other sources, along with an increase of production capacity, can allow for costs to drop if demand would stay up(read as gas staying in the 3.50+ range).




Straight E85 should require roughly 30% more fuel than gasoline under equivolent rpm/load conditions. So for the crazies on this site(said with love, I promise) who never take their engine load over 50%, usually have enough capacity in their stock fuel system to run the car, even if it is running slightly lean at times. FYI: most OBD2 computers have a 20-30% range of +/- fuel compensation that is automatically adjusted without setting a fault code. Considering a 50/50 mixture may only require 15% more fuel under light load conditions, then it makes sense that some people will be able to mix without severe problems. The fact is those people probably arent looking at fuel trims and watching the fuel mixture under heavier load conditions.

To be a vehicle manufacturer that has to warranty vehicles that are capable of running any mixture you want, there really is thousands of dollars in modifications that should be done to make sure some dick with lawyer doesnt sue them when problems arise. As an end user who doesnt expect a car to run WOT in -15*F and idle smoothly in 115*F arizona desert, then we can live with the limitations of a system that kind of works. FYI: thats what all these fly by night rip off artists are selling without telling you. Yes they can make your car run on E85, but it doesnt run right in all conditions at all times, like is expected from the average joe.

50/50 E85/Regular Gas in corolla 95
 

guys, i have been using 50/50 E85/Regular Gas in my corolla 95 for 3 mounths so far, with no problem
corolla 95 with 1.8 engin should do 30/g highway 28/city

guys belive me that 10g of that mixture, is making at least 295 mil in my corolla, 90% highway 10% city, many times i drive fast, some times over 80/H and some times i turn on A/C and i still get about 295 mil every time i put 10 gallons from that mixture in my car.

I somehow missed this one 3.5 years ago...

Explosive, huh?

What is your source for that information?

When it goes in the cylinder, that's what I want it to do.

I have ran 50/50 in a LOT of different hondas from the 90's. All seem to run very well.

I have run as much as 90 percent E85. When you run "too much" the car coughs, loses power, acts crabby, and check engine light comes on. When this happens, I whip by the nearest gas station and throw 5 bucks of regular gasoline in - problem solved!

Just to throw my anecdote in here, I've been running a stock MY2002 Grand Cherokee Overland (4.7L "high output" engine) on E85 for ~4500 miles so far, with no ill effects apparent. It doesn't appear to run out of fuel bandwidth at WOT/onramp merging/hills, and doesn't illuminate the check engine light.

Plus it smells a bit like vodka when I cold start & then reverse into my exhaust cloud. Maybe I should throw a few lime peels into the tailpipe...

Corrosion is like rust, it's a slow process, so the concern is longevity not sudden catastrophic failure.

There isn't any approval process for parts to be considered safe for E85 use. But there is a list of known compatible materials with Ethanol and Gasoline. Rubber, Mild steel, and certain plastics are not compatible with Ethanol. Parts with these components exposed to fuel without a protective coating will fail earlier. They have to use something compatible or a sacrificial coating that is safe. For example with aluminum they use a layer of zinc. To make Stainless steel they dip it in acid. There are some plastics that are safe though, like proprietary Viton.

Let me know if I missed something.:)

Just so people don't get the wrong idea from this old thread. The AKI octane is about 95.6 for E50 and 95.8 for E85. It depends on what grade of Gasoline they use for blending too.

Investigation of Knock Limited Compression Ratio
of Ethanol Gasoline Blends. Scroll down to Table 2.

Actual engine performance is closer to C16 from what I understand.

Park the other way around while your engine is warm ...

I would like to see some links to that study.

Reason is that I got silly idea to slap turbo on my Volvo 240 diesel, that is 6 cylinder 2.4l diesel motor without turbo, there is only few bits that I would need to find and perhaps reduce compression. We have RE85 here, which is made from garbage, same as E85 but it is more for my liking as it is made from garbage.

So if I understood correctly, that would made something relatively close to 2.4l 6 cylinder gasoline turbo engine, but with lower RE85 consumption (consumption relatively close to diesel) that what that would use gasoline and have better or similar power output than with diesel?

You don't reduce compression when turboing a diesel... that I know of anyway. That's common practice for gassers.

Not always, sometimes yes, if you have 21:1 compression ratio (NA diesel) Turbo diesels are usually 16-19:1. If one wants to use E85 and convert it with spark plugs and all that, I don't think that 21:1 with turbo will work?

In study they had turbo diesel TDI engine and that has 16.5:1 compression I guess?

So to get it to work, it is perhaps needed to lower compression a bit to level they had in that study?

That is why I would like to read whole study to learn more parameters from it so I could tell what would be needed with application in my mind.

Interesting...

trying to run a diesel on ethanol is not going to work.

Yes it will.

98 percent of the gasoline sold in the United States today has ethanol in it. A solvent (like ethanol) eats through whatever it is going to eat through pretty much regardless of concentration.

Therefore, fuel lines, tanks, filters, etc. sold in the United States for the past 30 years have been safe with Ethanol.

Regards,
Doug

You need to get out more. A VW diesel has been converted to E85 in the lab and some are trying to bring that to the street.

1988 is when everything had to be ethanol compatible, but why quibble over six years (except if you are wondering about something built between '82 and '88)?

Scania has diesel that uses ethanol.

However if you read carefully, I was referring to EPA study and asking source or link to that, as in that study diesel is made not diesel, by installing spark plugs, and making engine to more or less gasoline engine, except compression is not touched, which is rather interesting as compression is very high.

So even originally motor would be diesel, it would not be diesel after changes. Scania's way of doing it is completely different of course, better not to get that mixed too much into this, but here is link, it is really old news, but some might have missed it.

Green Car Congress: Scania Extending Heavy-Duty Ethanol Engine Technology to Trucks

The DOE study used a sparkplug at low loads, Scania uses sky high compression 29:1 or something with E95. I might have had the link to the DOE study but I dunno I if I still have it.

Edit: I don't.

Here is SAE study:
http://www.nord-com.net/stoni/docs/SuTCAF.pdf

One of challenges would be EGR sizing.

Scania's E95 bus diesel cycle motors use apparently 26:1 compression ratio, fuel is bit special and as one can't use normal diesel pump, injectors etc. it is not so interesting as coverting diesel to spark plugs and having E85 as fuel.

Consumption will be more than with diesel fuel, because E85 will have less energy, but with turbo diesel difference would be only by amount of energy difference in fuel, but less consumption than converted gasoline motor.

Here it is illegal to make one's own E85 of course, like everything else is illegal, you always need to buy everything, very strong no to anything you do yourself, so that reduces a lot of savings compared to guys in US and other countries with legislation tuned for more individual rights than gov control. So better check the law before hoping to get relatively low cost transportation.

an auto that uses
E85, LPG and or CNG would be a good mix...

all 100+ octane fuels...