Edison2 VLC
 

Edison2: The Very Light Car (X PRIZE Contender) - Welcome

Surprise Automotive X Prize winners announced ? The Register

http://regmedia.co.uk/2010/09/17/vlc.jpg

http://www.edison2.com/storage/WINNERS%20idea%201.jpg

I do believe that they were the best team out there. Their design isn't so radical, important to entice some more conservative buyers, and their design is much more attractive than that Aptera. Heck, that Aptera looks like it should be playing music and running apps, it's design cues seem to unfortunately derive from Apple.

ecofreak -

I agree that Edison2 has the best game plan, but I think their design is radical as compared to "regular" cars. From the outside I also think of the Edison2 and Aptera as relatives. They both look like airplane fuselages to me.

CarloSW2

Old thread on the Edison2 Very Light Car:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11841.html

It also is mentioned many times in the X-Prize thread:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...und-13636.html

Thats a thought, with that in mind once they're finally put into product..

With the right modifications could the Aptera/Edison2 Fly?

Now before you start yelling NO! @ me, hear me out. I've been looking around at the webs countless examples of failed "flying Cars" I have found a design that has merit and looks fairly simple to "Bodge" on/into an Aptera/Edison2 design.

Here- parajetautomotive .com

Simply its an ATV with a Parachute bolted on, with a propeller sticking out the back (yes its much more complicated then that but that it in a nut shell.) Now regardless of power source (electric/small gas engine) Could this design be adapted to the Aptera or Edison2? Grant it the stock shocks would have to be swapped out and some controls rigged inside, and some serious reinforcement structurally, but besides that, It doesn't seem to be much of an impossibility.. Right?

Surprised no one tried to answer around here.

I like what you're doing & hope the venture is going well. I don't know the curb weight of your design; it looks heavier and less user friendly than http://mavericklsa.com but what you say is doable with enough welding and willpower :-)

Problem is "swapping" suspension design and what you give up by doing that. If you look into the Edison2 suspension, it's very untraditional, so you have a challenge there for sure. It also has huge aero benefits and saves a lot of weight. Killing that with a swap brings on a whole slew of challenges and compromises.

The E2 chassis design is for 2 dimensions, but you're working in 3 in terms of landing, and I saw a non-soft landing in the video on your site -- something requiring specialized suspension.

I think the E2 skeleton is what you'd want to work with though. The cage does the same job with half the material input/structure and you need that for any venture into the sky.

Anyway, best to contact them and see what you can do.

Any car can be made to fly, given enough engineering. My POC would be a little easier than the others, because it is lighter and has less frontal area. But making it fly would be a huge project, and you end up with a seriously compromised car and a seriously compromised airplane. I fly airplanes and drive cars and enjoy doing both, but the last thing I want is a car that drives like an airplane taxis.

http://www.amphicar.com/images/vinta...r_in_water.jpg

Amphibious cars have been produced and sold (the Amphicar being the best example) but they do not catch on for similar reasons -- they are not good boats, and they are not good cars. The differences are more dramatic when you try to make a car fly, because an engine failure is simple to deal with on land or water, but not in the air. Anything that flies needs to be made to aircraft standards, and today the least expensive simplest planes (like a Diamond D20, a two place) are just under $200,000 with basic equipment.

The available flying cars are all less efficient and more costly as airplanes than a real airplane and worse as cars than a real car. The Terra Fuggia is probably further along than most, and actually flies, but is projected to cost $279,000. (Terrafugia - Transition^® the Roadable Light Sport Aircraft : The Vehicle). The Milner Air Car has been projected to sell for about $400,000.

Ken I think what your missing is these (The Parajet & The Maverick) are NOT planes! they are ATV's with reinforced roll cage's That have had a parachute bolted on! Professional Jumpers learned that with a pushing force behind you that a chute designed to lower you to the ground slowly could also be used to put you in the air! Some people just thought that that same idea could be applied to a vehicle. They don't "fly" they "fall with style." So obviously their primary purpose is to go off road for recreation, but in the presence of a location where offroading isn't an option (too wooded) taking the chute out and turning on the prop and you have a alternative, obviously not ment for 100's of miles of flight but limited applications.

Oh a weird side note: Strange, this thread resurrected one year (to the day) from when I last posted.. huh.

I like the wording! :)

I didn't realize that this thread had started so long ago. The paracars look like fun. There are some ultralights based on the same idea.

Here's the first EM thread on the Edison2 VLC:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11841.html

Here's another earlier thread started by yours truly when I was at the X-Prize Knockout Round as a guest member of the Edison2 team:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...und-13636.html

Thanks, Neil. I've been swamped, so haven't been able to read all the way through those threads, but wanted to let you know that I really appreciate all the reporting, gathering together of interesting stuff, etc that you have done here and elsewhere, as well as your enthusiasm for the whole area of efficient transportation.

I always liked the VLC because it looks like it would be easy to manufacture at a reasonable cost and seems familiar to people.

Unfortunately, I doubt if it could ever meet US crash-safety standards.

They are fairly confident it will pass -- they are race car builders, remember. They have taken a VLC to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...86792000_n.jpg

Edison2 - Safety By Design

Flickr: VeryLightCar's Photostream

Their little piece on safety was nice, but to pass US crash safety tests, the VLC people will have to supply fifty cars for crash testing.

The VLC 4.0
 

I've been posting this stuff over on the Aptera forum because it had a more dedicated thread for it. I think you guys over here would appreciate seeing some of the new designs of the supremely aerodynamic VLC 4.0 as well.

First off here's a good video of the current versions of the VLC and VLCE:
Edison 2/2 on Vimeo

This was from 2010, one of the first images of the possible 4.0.
http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_reso...b2a27f92a6.jpg

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_reso...253d3844a7.jpg

Some of the first quater scale model versions.
I couldn't get a direct img link for this image but the url is there ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
http://www.edison2.com/storage/IMG_0828.jpg

Then we got This one from Jason at design by 11.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WANUGa9aCA...20/VLC+4.0.jpg

I did some digging and pulled up this small picture of the lastest quarter scale model.
http://www.readthehook.com/files/ima...pened-edis.jpg

And this latest video from Feb of this showing the 4.0 quarter scale and a great interview with Oliver and Ron including plans for designing another brand engine and the possible materials of the VLc shell. You should really watch it!
Charlottesville Inside-Out: LOOK3 Festival of the Photograph; Edison2 | ideastations.org

Skip to 13:20. That's where the VLC comes in.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/...wFromVidio.jpg
http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/LEAF/edison_side.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/...NewVehical.jpg

And now just this week the Latest tease of the 4.0 from Jason.
designby11: *VLC 4.0

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MDPua3NB-z.../VLC+4.0+B.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7183/6...a2230237_b.jpg

I'm David Strong and am helping Oliver Kuttner (Edison 2 VLC and X prize winner). Oliver will be in the SF Bay Area between September 30th and October 6th. He will be showing his electric version of the VLC in Emeryville on October 6th at 11am at Fantasy Junction motors.

He has asked me to help him organize his time to promote EVs and the VLC but I need help in knowing whom best to contact.

Any information concerning key contact persons with EV clubs, builders, universities or user groups would help a lot.

Oliver’s has time to make many appearances and show the VLC off. He’s got a very good 20 to 40 minute presentation about the future of transportation, the VLC design, and why e cars will prevail. He’s interested in individuals, groups, car events, universities or any other event or place that would appreciate his VLC.

Any contact names you can provide me would help Oliver Kuttner promote EVs and the VLC. Thanks in advance for your help.

David Strong 510.428.2904

October 6th @11am - meet Oliver and ride in the eVLC at:
Fantasy Junction
1145 Park Ave
(between Emery St & San Pablo Ave)
Emeryville, CA 94608
(510) 653-7555

Did anyone go to this? Love to hear your stories!

ELgreentech(at)gmail.com

Give it a few days.

I stopped by Local Motors and saw that there was a design competition to design the door handle for the VLC:

https://www.localmotors.com/edison2-...re-in/2012/09/

They offered $6K in prize money to the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners, with 10 entries. For the door handle. Not bad odds.

Does anyone know how much it would have cost to design the door handle themselves? Does this represent a savings? Did it result in a design nobody would have thought of otherwise?

The front looks strikingly like a bobsled. :thumbup:

Oliver Kuttner came to the SF bay area to talk about and show of his car. I rode in the VLCe for a 35 mile trip, mostly freeway but some surface streets. Oliver didn't push the car for 'impressive' acceleration, but easily drove at freeway speed. He said the VLCe could, in theory, go 160mph. The car needs about 6 hp to cruise at 60-65mph compared to a Prius needing 13hp.

The morning I road with him, the overnight charge had been tripped. Thus, with under 3 hours of charge (@15 or 20 amps, 110v) we drove the 35 miles to our first meeting. We then plugged in during the second presentation for 2 hours. After that the car went to Stanford, on to a third meeting and back to his hotel, an estimated total trip of 70 or 80 miles - on 5 hours of 110V 15/20amp charging. Ken Fry did the calculations to about 100/KW per mile. Very impressive.

Oliver mentioned that the basic weight of the car starts at under 800 pounds but needs to weight closer to 1,200 pounds to drive well in traffic and cross winds. The implication is that the 10KWh pack adds the amount of weight needed to make the car a good and safe driving machine.

My personal impression of the ride is that it is near in quality to my Prius C. It's intersting that this VLCe has 3.5 inches of vertical travel in the suspension, while my Prius C has - I believe 6 or 7". The point being that a lighter car rides better than a heavy one. Oliver had a front wheel suspension unit with him as part of the presentation. The 25lbs unit had 6" of vertical travel. The travel is limited by the diameter of the wheel - and tire. The car calls for a large diameter light load capacity tire/wheel starting at 17". 19" would be even better. It's my understanding is such a large diameter, light load tire is going to be built.

The Presentation was very well recieved. Folks quickly appreciated what he had to say and the VLCe he was driving.
The presentation covered:
Edison 2's achievement - $5Mil Xprize.
The car's virtues: 1) light 2) aerodynamic.
The architecture of the suspension - gaining cabin and luggage room and allowing for external wheels and a central pod.
The safety - external wheel pods allowing 18" of crumple zone.
The flexibility of the suspension to be used on existing cars and trucks. The suspension can support light and heavy vehicles.

Oliver's on his way back to Virginia in a truck with a auto trailer. He'll be presenting the VLCe in Denver on Oct 11. I will pass on any information I receive on that event. I will also post this to the EVDL and Ecomod forums. I'm wondering if there's other forums that have the kind of overview, intellectual curiosity and knowledge base as our own Aptera Forum?

It has been a pleasure and honor meet Oliver and ride in and help show off the VLCe.

David - aka. Rayfellow

Is there a picture or description of how this would work available?

Do the Edison 2 folks have a website? I haven't found it.

I'm very nearby and would like to see what their show schedule might be:)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvhkRn_R9U[/youtube]

I just realized the lack of E.M. shielding around the motor is whats causing the distortions in the recording of the video.

Yeah Jim, go check out the VLC for us. I think you'll be very impressed.

1415 Kemper Street, Suite J2

Lynchburg, VA 24501

phone: 434-326-0016

I suspect that the video got distorted by the "correction" that YouTube offers to counteract hand shake. Or, it is the custom windshield that has some optical distortion?

I don't think the motor has enough EMF in the cabin to swing a compass needle?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7183/6...a2230237_b.jpg

This looks pretty cool. I was worried about the windshield frame not visually meshing with the other lines on the car but it looks like that's been worked out well enough. One question- why was the structural support run through the middle of the windshield instead of on the A-pillars like a normal car?

Anyway, if this gets up and running as a company it might just have the potential to pull my money away from a Volt-based GM car. We'll see what the price point is on each.

Also, what kind of tires does this run, and are they available for winter duty?

You're over the 535i *already*? Shoulda gone for a Miata.

Visit to Edison2 Facility
 

Motored down to Lynchburgh yesterday to take a tour of the Edison 2 facility. The folks there are quite friendly and open, so you can pretty much walk in, but it is probably best to call first.

The original car, the X-Prize entry was a space frame, carbon fiber spartan vehicle with very few creature comforts. It was powered by a motorcycle engine.

The engine in the original, which was available for viewing, was a highly modified turbocharged 250 single cylinder. It had 4 valves/cylinder and was water cooled. Lots of custom parts all over the engine, so looks like they did some serious dyno time to get it right.

They seem to be converting entirely to the electric approach. They currently have a very nicely finished out electric which the owner has tagged and is driving on the public roads. That must turn some heads;) I'd love to have this one, even though it has a minor sore point. It has a tubular brace which runs from the rollover bar just behind the driver's head forward and down the length of the forward tilting canopy. I asked about it and according to the young fellow showing me around, it's function is primarily to add strength to the hinge area for the canopy. It doesn't appear in the next design.

The new car, which is under construction now is very sophisticated and looks to be very strong in side impact. It is of twin wall aluminum monococue construction, so there are thousands of rivet holding it all together. They have installed two very hefty looking aluminum cross members underneath both the front and back seats. These members also serve as covers for some of the required batteries.

Though there is testing of a new car profile which integrates the wheel fairings with the body, with a contoured joining section to present a more "bumper" like appearance to the front of the vehicle. On this model the steerable wheel fairings will be eliminated in favor of wheel cutouts. This is the version which appears on the their web sit with the pokey dot patterned wheel cover.

The mechanics of the front wheel suspension design is no longer being held so closely. My tour guide was willing to show it to me and discuss it at some length. Obviously, by now any number of visitors have seen it. As we have all noted, it is entirely contained within the wheel fairings. it is a sort of double jointed parallel link arrangement which steers about a huge "kingpin." The shock and the spring are contained in the middle of this "kingpin, which must measure a good 4 inches in diameter.

The young fellow who showed me around was very interest in the Honda Insight I drove, and was unfamiliar with it. He was so interested in the mods I had made that he went out to the parking lot to see the car and the mods. Non of the staff seems to know about the "sport" of hypermiling, which was a surprise in itself.

I was very grateful for the kindness and hospitality of the staff. They answered most of my questions, but of course a few items are still confidential. I was able to pick up some tips on a Manometer pressure measurement setup which I may try out myself, when the time permits.

manometers
 

along with the manometer you might also check out the 'manometer-in-a gauge' Magnehelic,by Dwyer Instuments.
Along with a Pitot tube you can measure pressures and also double as an airspeed indicator (0-3-inches water column range is useful).

Did they talk about the zero-scrub aspect of the front suspension? They mentioned at one point that a beam axle in a old pickup has the same capability. I found that interesting.

I'm picturing a 4-bar linkage with the 'kingpin' on it's diagonal. Is that even close?

No, he did not talk about that. I was a walk in visitor so they had no prepared presentation for me.

But, I think your speculation about the zero scrub is indeed correct. In its basic concept, the front geometry is similar to the old Morgan sliding pillar design in that there is no camber change on bump/rebound. There is the usual solid beam front axle with all the steering rotation and spring deflection taking place on the kingpin centerline. It is impossible to fully describe, and I don't think they would have encouraged pictures, but it is as I described. The king pin is very large, perhaps 4 inches, and it rotates within a large cylinder which is welded to the beam axle. The spring and shock are positioned inside the kingpin.

Quite an impressive design and I would encourage anyone within driving distance to go and see the cars. It is a fascinating excursion for those who love aerodynamics and mechanical engineering.

Here's a picture I took at the X-Prize Knockout Round:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...d/DSC_4713.jpg

Here is the all the photos I took there:

http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...l?sort=3&o=324

Thanks for the pictures Neil. I enjoyed those.

It is clear that they have redesigned the front suspension. The suspension on the original X-Prize car was not available for inspection so I thought the current design to be the same, but they clearly are not. Though your picture of the suspension lacks in detail, I can tell by the spring and shock location that it is clearly different from the latest design. The front suspension still retains 0 scrub, which probably saves a few ounces of fuel, or in the case of the current car, a few watts;)

;)

Wish i could've been there, but i'm sure you made a great ambassador for us Jim!

Can you tell me more about this Neil? I like it, but i hope it's not a HPV.
DSC04228.jpg photo by NeilBlanchard | Photobucket

I know nothing about that vehicle - that is a picture I found on the Internet.

I think at the time, they didn't want pictures taken of the front suspension. I thought I did have a more detailed view of it, but I could not locate it. My memory of it is that it is a pair of trailing arms linked together in a parallelogram. It is very compact and very light, has very good anti-roll - and it's raison d'être is to allow the front wheel fairings to not have to move up and down, so they can have lower drag than if they did have to move up and down.

The rear suspension is also unique on the VLC. The design is "locked in" to a rear wheel drive; which is too bad because with an electric drivetrain this somewhat limits the amount of regenerative braking you can use.

I'm really looking forward to seeing more of the VLC v4 - the new aluminum frame, the battery pack location(s), how the new open front wheels and the totally fixed front wheel fairings (they used to pivot with the steering). I am totally happy that they are moving toward an electric drivetrain (with a serial hybrid genset optional?). The VLC v4 looks great, and the actual car will (probably) look even better than the models and renderings.

Apparently the aluminum monicoque chassis I saw under construction was indeed the v4. I just jumped to the conclusion that it was to have the usual steerable wheel fairings. It is a wider car, with more interior room. The double wall construction looks very strong and the aluminum cross members are going to make for good crash intrusion protection.

It is a very interesting operation, but a bit difficult to figure out where they are going with it.

That's usually the problem.
The breakthrough / award-winning design can't be commercialised, and the start-up company that made it, starts wandering, going into different design or concept directions, different powertrains, ....

And before they know it, it's game over.

I can only hope Edison will be different, but the signals I'm seeing aren't hopeful.

You gotta fix the design at some point, and build it.
Get in some cash, and work on the next design version while producing V1.