Elegant Forced Auto Stop (Insight)
 

Hey guys, this is a development thread, I finally got it working on page 4. I now have a finished product, which is a small arduino pcb clone programmed to generate the wave used in conjunction with a spdt switch. If you have an Insight and would like one, they are for sale, send me a pm here or on Insight Central. There is a thread in buy-and-sell on IC where availability info and prices can be found, but I will respond to private messages here also.


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Background Info:

So some guy on IC tried to make a chip that would trick the car into thinking conditions were 'right' for auto stop, and it would let you AS basically on command. (This is NOT suitable for CVT, only for 5MT.) I've been trying to duplicate his work, he rolled his Insight a couple years ago. :(

For AS in the manual the car wants:
- Neutral
- Low Speed (< 19MPH + deceleration)
- Outside temp above 32°F
- Engine sorta warm (I think about 120°F+ going by my ScanGauge)
- IMA not too low (no bg charge)

IMA, engine temp, and shifter in neutral are all things you probably want to be required before you auto-stop, but OAT and speed are things we don't really want as a factor. That's where EFAS comes in.

The main component is a switch where if you press it then the VSS signal going to the ECM is replaced with a spammed signal from a 555 Timer of a square wave of about 2HZ, to make the car think it's going like 1mph. An optional secondary component is for, when the switch is pressed, the OAT sensor gets a47k ohm resistor wired into it, making the ECM think the outside temperature is warm.

Now, engineers and electricians, please shield your eyes; everyone else look at the horror I have constructed:

http://www.lady-natalya.info/insight/efas-crispy-0.jpg

The relay on the left is currently disconnected from everything. On the lower middle is a 555 timer. It outputs at a frequency higher than I would like, but I'm having some issues that I'll explain soon which need to be resolved first I think. The weird PCB just above the 555 timer is a voltage regulator. I'm taking +12V from the car and dropping it down to +5V as measured by a multimeter.


http://www.lady-natalya.info/insight/efas-crispy-1.jpg

The switch I'm holding, centre goes to ECM, right comes from VSS sensor, and left comes from the 555 timer.

Everything is all torn apart still because I'm having some issues with it, but maybe people who know more about electronics or Insights can weigh in on this issue.

1: I don't know where to find a +5v source, hence the regulator device. If I knew where one was I'd use that instead.

2: When the switch is set to the right, everything works normally, car drives along reading the correct speed. When the switch is set to the left it is SUPPOSED to get a signal from the 555 timer of a square wave and the VSS is cut out of the equation.

Apparently that's not the case.

Observed behaviour when I press the switch to the left is that the car's speedometer still works normally, but auto-stop will never happen. I think the ECM is somehow getting a combined signal at the wrong voltage or something from the VSS and the 555 timer and to play it safe it won't auto stop. I'm absolutely baffled as to how the VSS signal is going through an open switch into the ECM. Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on here?

impressive. I'm sorry, I cant be of any help.

Holy cow! That's pretty cool looking, but I'm way too non-electrical minded for that kind of undertaking.

If you're doing it because you like electronics, that's an awesome project since basically everybody with an Insight would like their car to autostop at higher speeds.

But if you're just looking for the easiest way to make it happen, I had Daox make me a custom shift knob with a kill switch, regen button and clutch override switch for my Insights. I think it does exactly what you're looking for without a bunch of work or cost. I had maybe fifty bucks in the kill switch, regen button, clutch override and custom 3D printed shift knob altogether

I can kill the engine at any speed, autostart at any speed, keep it from background charging on the highway, and get full regen using only engine braking at the touch of a button.

Well, I could when my IMA was functioning :( It still works on my first Insight which my son owns now.

Here's the link to my first install on Turtle:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post467947

Isn't yours an injector kill switch? This doesnt kill the injectors it tricks the car into auto stop so you don't get the Christmas Tree warning lights.

Yeah it does do that, but it never bothered me since it still reads the mph, mpg and autostarts and you still have brake pedal.

It would cool to have autostop at any speed without the warning lights though, since I'm pretty sure the electronics work straight off the tiny 12V when you hit the kill switch (the headlights dim until you start it back up) and seem to work off the IMA when in true autostop

I messaged Darkfish on there I think nearly 2 months ago, he messaged me and said he still builds the plug-and-plug version, but was out of the country and would get back to me early June. I didn't hear from him, so I just shot him another message. I'm glad the effort isn't lost, though. Might be hiring YOU to build one for me. :) haha!

I have an injector kill switch setup on my Gen 1 Insight. One down side is, since it's not a true AutoStop, the 12V battery is not maintained at 13.5V as it usually is. Mine drops to 11.x volts pretty quickly because I use a smaller battery for weight savings.

If I had a true spoofed autostop like Natalya is attempting to build, it would maintain 13.5V with headlights on - great for night driving.

BTW, if the engine is not spinning (as in engine off situation), the hybrid battery is not charging. The generator/IMA motor is bolted between the engine output shaft and the flywheel. If the engine IS spinning, you're using some energy source to make that spin happen, especially if you're using the spin to generate electricity.

How did you do your kill-switch?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0...ectors_A_B.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1...ectors_C_D.jpg

Unfortunately I don't have the pages that say what those abbreviations are...

The connector known as P31 toward the rear of the seat back has at least one 5 volt signal on it. You will have to check the shop manual for this connector since I am at work now. P31 is connected to the module that sits on top of the IMA on the right side when viewed from the rear of the car.

I just saw Sam's post on this. Thanks Sam.

Jim.

The 13.5 V is coming from the IMA battery when the car is at idle, and this voltage drain has to later be made up by the IMA putting more charge back into the HV battery at higher rpm's.

If one does the IMA bypass, the idle voltage is about 11.9 V.

Jim.

I think IC has a digital copy of the manual where one can find the descriptions. My 2000 Shop Manual has full descriptions.

Jim.

You're welcome to any of the resources in my InsightTech folder:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...jd5amdITThsb2s

See folder "Honda-Insight-2000-2006", wiring.

On page 58, the wire from the VSS is shown to split to both the ECU and cluster, so you should be able to fool the ECU without causing the speed displayed to change. It is also shown to go to the TCM (presumably in CVT models, as I don't think the MT would have one) on page 36.

The variables that initiate auto-stop seem to vary, to some degree. For instance, sometimes auto-stop doesn't engage until around 12mph, if I haven't gone over perhaps 25mph - that is, I can speed up to ~21, then slow down to 19 again, and auto-stop won't engage. I haven't paid close enough attention to it to understand exactly what's going on. I'm inclined to believe you can solve this with some trial and error.

A related idea came to me while reading this thread; I assume MPG calculations are done in the cluster and are independent of the ECU, so you could send whatever signal you wanted to it and not mess up the gauges. Engine idle speed (for instance when in neutral or changing gears) varies while rolling. Above ~51mph, the engine revs to about 1300-1400rpm and begins charging with 4 bars. It would presumably be possible to initiate (or prevent) this with the same device.

http://i.imgur.com/tlHf8iG.png

@Ecky and 3-Wheeler:
Y'alls posts have been super helpful. I didn't know the VSS signal got split before the ECM, which explains the speedometer stuff I was seeing. I have a physical copy of the 2000 Electrical Troubleshooting Manual, but it was a little confusing. However, I did manage to find the P31 connector that 3-Wheeler mentioned. It's referred to as MCM Connector C in the manual. It has four VCC wires, and the connector in the ECM where the VSS is has 2 VCC wires. The manual doesn't specify the voltages but I'll check the ones up front and see what they do and report back here.

I basically did what was recommend at InsightCentral. I wrote a bit about it but I think I just posted on an existing thread there.

Two key components:
1) Clutch switch hack. It fakes the clutch being depressed. If not activated, the IMA system restarts the engine when it recognizes that you're rolling.
2) Fuel injector kill. This involves getting to the three + wires that power the injectors, under the little plastic cover that protects them.

I patiently figured out how to pop the cover open without destroying it. You sever each of the three wires and insert a relay in the circuit between them. They are all powered + 12V continuously, so you just splice together the three severed + wire ends, and the three other ends that go to the three injectors. Insert a relay between them and there you go.

Easier said than done, of course.

I made one circuit change vs. the procedure given in IC. I didn't like the idea of powering the relay's coil from the 12V injector circuit. I don't know what the coil load is vs. the load presented by the injectors but it certainly isn't exactly the same. So I powered the relay's coil from the 12V battery, via a little fuse.

I didn't tackle putting the switches themselves at the shifter. I mounted them in the pop out locations left of the steering wheel, near the storage bin. Not quite as convenient as the shifter location but it was easier for me to do - and looks very clean.

It's not necessary to use 3 relays, as it's a shared ground.

Natalya,

Great project. Here's what I think about the speedometer issue:

I think you've connected to the wrong pin/wire at the speedometer, or maybe at your switch.

Possibly your switch has quite a few terminals on it (based on my recent experience buying switches for my fuel injector cutoff) - and just maybe you've got the RIGHT wires at the speedo sensor, but didn't connect to the right ones on the switch. I suspect you're using a SPDT or maybe a DPDT. Either way, I found the pins needed were NOT where I expected them to be. Test the function of the different pin combinations with a multitester or similar.

Speedometer: I expect there are three pins at the speedometer. I wired my MPGuino mpg calculator to my '97 Civic. It needed a speedometer connection, so I had to learn what was what. At home, I might still have my color coding notes for the speedo sensor. I would not be surprised if the Insight sensor has the same coding. Honda seems to like to keep their color coding the same. I think some people wired theirs at the computer, but I connected mine at the speedometer sensor on the transmission.

Anyway, my recollection is there are three speedometer pins. One is +, maybe only 5 or 10V instead of 12V. I think one is ground and the third one is the output signal, which is the one you need to fake. I expect the output goes to the computer, not to the speedometer. I expect the speedometer is provided a signal from the computer.

Hmmm.

I see one additional requirement in the AutoStop-on-demand concept.

You need to fool the system into thinking the car is stopped (or moving very slowly) to activate AutoStop. BUT - you also want to see your speed on the speedometer once the engine is killed. And you want the odometer to count up miles, so you can see your improved fuel economy.

I don't know how to do both, at the same time.

I think the solution would be to reprogram the computer. But I have now idea how.

I suspect the computer is responsible for causing auto-stop, while the cluster displays MPH, counts miles, and keeps track of fuel economy independently. Intercepting the VSS signal to one hopefully will not disrupt the other.

It may be a useful test to see if auto-stop still works if the cluster is unplugged - there's a data connection between cluster and ECU, AFAIK. I dunno if it checks for parity.

@Brucepick:
Ecky's diagram, a few posts above, shows the VSS is split, sending a separate signal to the speedo and to the ECM. I wired the switch after the split on the ECM side, so the speedo should work fine. My next task is to get a different resistor on the timer to make it pulse more slowly (target is 2hz) and to power it with a 5v source from the car. There's two pins on the ECM connector I want to look at.

True.

And Mike Dabrowski at IC used to make a FAS board, and I bought one about five years ago, and have in my Insight. Use it all the time, even without an active IMA.

Mikes board does have three relays, that cut the positive side of the fuel injectors and no weird dashlights while activating the FAS board. Just have to activate it long enough for the ICE to stop running.

Jim.

When you make this work, will you beautify it for the sake of engineers and electricians? :) Can you wire this to a Doax shifter? :D

Okay ECM Connector C pin 28 labeled VCC2 is a +5v source. This lets me not use the voltage converter thing.

http://www.lady-natalya.info/insight/efas-working-1.png

Okay, some updates.
1: As you can see I got rid of the 12v to 5v converter because I located a 5v source at the ECM as mentioned above; pin #28 on the same connector the VSS wire uses.

2: Turns out it was pulsing too fast. I fixed this by throwing in an extra resistor. So now, in series between pins 6 and 7 there are a 10K Ohm resistor and a 47K Ohm resistor, which adds to 57k Ohms. (Previously there was just the 10K Ohm resistor.) I verified functionality by testing with an LED in series from the output to ground, so I knew that everything was working and that it would send the pulses to the ECM.

Okay, so on to testing. I had confusing results. In short, I don't know the correct inputs to make to get to autostop. Normally, when I drive, if I have my clutch switch off (driving the car in the normal fashion) and I hit the brakes, hold the brake down, throw it into neutral, then keep decelerating until I drop below about 35 km/h the car will autostop.

With this switch, I got autostop a couple times above 35km/h, but it wasn't consistent. I suspect that maybe the pulses I'm sending to the ECM are slightly too slow and maybe I need to remove the 10k resistor and just have the 47k resistor.

Also at some point I need to design a more ergonomic setup, right now it's still that thumb switch thing.

Removed the 10KOhm resistor from the series, for a slightly faster pulse. This did not work. It autostopped like 1 time and that was in a stop-and-go situation where I think the car acts a little differently with the autostop function.

Maybe the pulses were still too fast then?

Or maybe there's some other problem with the signal? I have a multimeter, maybe I need to do some work to determine other characteristics of the VSS-to-ECM output. Any electrical guys know what I might try looking for? I'm thinking like voltage of the pulses or something like that.

Does the VSS pulse at all when the car is stationary? Is there a way to determine how fast the 555 timer will pulse just by knowing what resistors I used?

I have like a smorgasbord of different resistors I can try, my target is 2Hz, but I also have no way of measuring whether it's 2hz or not, I mean I can use a stopwatch but I feel like I as a human am probably not going to be accurate enough to determine if a flashing LED is in fact 2Hz by looking at it and a stopwatch at the same time.

Procedure to get Auto-Stop under normal driving in a manual:
- Warm Engine (water above 130°F)
- IMA not background charging
- Outside temp above freezing

Easiest way:
- Be above 40km/h
- Press brake pedal & decelerate
- Throw into neutral while still holding brake
- Auto Stop should happen around 35km/h
-- It might happen higher (up to 40km/h) if you are decelerating really fast

So, the sequence is brake, neutral, go under 35km/h


With my EFAS (still WIP) circuit so far the only method I have to make it work is as follows:

- Be Auto-Stopped
- Press clutch switch button (tells car clutch is engaged)
- Activate EFAS circuit
- Drive and accelerate like normal, except there will be no IMA assist or regen
- Get to desired speed or top of a hill
- Put in neutral
- Hold down brake pedal (or I use brake switch)
- Auto Stop SHOULD happen
-- If it does not release the clutch switch
- Now you should have Auto Stop engine off coasting at whatever speed

That's the only way I can get it to work. I think it has to do with the pulses. I recently removed a resistor to make the pulses slightly faster. Originally I had 57kohm of resistance, but removing the resistor brought me down to 47kohm of resistance. Because I still wasn't getting the desired results, tonight I added 20kohms, so now I'm up to 67kohms of resistance which should slow the pulses more than they were originally. I have not gotten to test this, we will see how it goes.

Desired functionality:
- Be at like 80kmh
- Hold brake switch
- Throw into neutral
- ??????
- Auto Stop

At some point in that sequence I have to activate EFAS switch, I don't know when I need to be pressing the EFAS switch. I suspect that with slower pulses I'll get more leeway. Auto Stop is pretty weird, it doesn't always happen when expected

Like maybe you're at 20kmh and you throw into neutral you won't get it, but if you press brake and decel quickly you will get it, but if you let off the brake then engine restarts unless you engage the clutch switch, but if you started with the clutch switch engaged it might not want to Auto Stop until you're going slow//decel via brakes AND you release clutch switch.

Try wrapping your head around that situation. :confused: I hope that slower pulses will make it more likely to want to AS.

High five for your efforts. As for me, I don't have the brains or the patience for all that, so I just paid the man $135 to send me one. :) haha!

I always wish I knew more about electronics. I've done a lot of speaker crossover builds, but off other people's plans. I designed my own a few times, but was never anything impressive.

Don't know if any pics or details on the board he send will help you any, but if you want them, let me know!

No, I think your board is an injection cutoff switch so it's not going to have anything in common with what mine does.

I guess, for me, at some point saving gas has to also be about saving money. I mean, that's ostensibly why I bought the car. So I try to DIY everything. Also, I have fun doing this stuff. :)

Understood and agreed! Guess you either have brains or money. I don't have much of either, but the money part is easier. haha! Good luck and keep us updated.

Looks like the ECM does think the new slow pulse means the car is basically stopped. I got a P0500 today when using the switch, this is an error saying the VSS is messed up. Today I learned that in the Insight you get this when you're getting IMA regen or assist and the VSS reads a very low (or 0) speed. I had pressed the button when I was getting regen from braking which would throw the code.

Basically the ECM thinks, "VSS says the car is too slow for regen or assist, but regen//assist is occuring, therefore the VSS is broken."

This has implications for how to use the switch. I'll get to test some ideas tomorrow.

I'm with NoD. Natalya, you've gone far beyond what I could do, and what I can fully understand.

Mmmmmm. Maybe you need to build a circuit to gradually decrease the road speed that the computer sees? So... if cruising at 80 kph, when you activate the circuit the computer sees a continually dropping speed till it gets to something below 20 MPH (convert to kph). I say that speed because <20 mph is stated in my owner's manual as a requirement for autostop.

Now once speed (apparent to computer) is below 20 mph and autostop activates - I think it stays in a/s as long as its in neutral or clutch is in use, AND (apparent) speed has to stay low.

Side note - About the ambient temperature requirement. There are several threads on IC about splicing a resistor into the temp sensor circuit, to fool the sensor into thinking the ambient air temperature is warm enough for autostop. I now have mine so it will function normally, OR I can switch it to indicate just under 50ºF, which enables autostop.

Leaving it set normally when possible, is good for me, because the climate control system uses the ambient air temp data as an input.

This post in my own thread on IC also includes links to other good sources there. Auto stop issue - Page 2 - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

Good Luck with your project - it has huge potential!

For reasons I don't understand, my car WILL Auto Stop even when it's freezing outside. I looked at the wires for the Outside Air Temperature sensor and they don't look like they've been messed with, but last winter in Canada I was regularly able to get AS on days when it was well below freezing.

That said, I was initially building this with a relay to also trick the computer as to what the OAT sensor says, but my problems with the pulses and VSS and ECM in general led me to focus instead on just getting Auto Stop to reliably occur.

A problem I'm encountering is that, because I know it's unlikely to Auto Stop with the switch on, and I know that if I misapply the switch it will then NOT Auto Stop, when I drive I hesitate to even test it because I want to get good tank mpg and I'm wasting gas every time I press the switch and it doesn't AS.

I think spoofing a speed down is a really good idea, I will have to look into the feasibility of designing the circuit in that fashion.

In my vehicle, it will NOT stay in AS unless clutch is in AND/OR car is below 4kmh AND/OR brake is still on. So like, I gotta hold my brake switch, have clutch switch on, or have the car close to stopped or the engine will restart immediately. I think this is incorrect behaviour from everything else I've read. But so is having AS when it's well below freezing.

PS:
20mph is about 35kmh which is when I typically see AS occur. :)

No, that sounds like correct behavior to me, or at least it's how mine behaves.

Generally, I decelerate in 5th down to 30, then switch to 3rd and decelerate down to 20, pop it into neutral while still holding the brake, and I get auto-stop. I then press my clutch toggle and I can let go of the brake, but I need one or the other on.

With the clutch toggle, the auto stop light is solid. With the brake pressed, it flashes. (I might have that backward but I think it's right)

Clutch toggle affects the light. Brake can be depressed or released without changing the light.

http://www.lady-natalya.info/insight/efas-arduino.png

I finally had success.

Basically, as seen above, I abandoned the 555 timer in favour of a clone of an Arduino Nano. I have a bunch of them lying around. With this I wrote a very simple program for it to generate a square wave at exactly 2 hz, which corresponds with about a 1mph VSS signal. Right now it is hooked to the big pcb, but that's all redundant. I'll wire the arduino straight to the +5v and the ground wires, bypassing that board. Pin A1 on the arduino is the square wave output.

Current functionality:
- Warm engine up
- Achieve speed or location (like top of a hill) where you want to EOC
- Put shifter into neutral
- Press switch to send the square wave to the ECM
- Auto Stop occurs after about 2 seconds.

This is exactly what I was hoping for. Now I can EOC wherever I want without the stupid christmas tree lights.

The next step for me is to fashion a more ergonomic switch. Right now it's just the small sliding SPST switch seen in OP. Any ideas about this? On the shifter would be nice but I want it to be minimalist. Maybe a foot pedal would work. I love my brake switch on the steering wheel, it's unobtrusive and easy to press.

This really simple code is all you need to tell the Arduino what to do. Verify it works by plugging it up to a 5v power source then put a resistor and LED in series on pin A1 and ground them. When the Arduino is given power it should flash the LED at 2hz. If it does that then you can use it for EFAS.

http://www.lady-natalya.info/insight/EFAS-switch.png

Final install. :) I have to reach a tiny bit to press the switch. I considered foot pedals, but installing one of those would have meant drilling into the floor, and I just didn't want to do that. The black switch on the column is EFAS, the little silver switch on the wheel is my brake (full-regen) switch.

I used the wrong kind of switch for EFAS. It works, but the correct switch would be an SPDT maintain switch. This one has a third neutral position which shouldn't be used. In the photo it is in normal driving mode, when I push it in to the I position at the top it switches the signal to the ECM to come from the Arduino, and then the car goes into Auto Stop if in neutral. Sometimes I have to tap the brake switch to get AS to happen, but that's no biggie. When I want to drive again I press the switch back down to the II position and then I shift into gear. In a pinch you can just shift into gear and the engine will restart, but if you leave the switch depressed in the upper I position you won't get assist or regen.

I'm really happy this project is completed, and I'd love to help anyone who wants to build it for their own car, so just ask if you have questions.

One more step you should consider:

To make it really convenient, you could get an S2000 steering wheel and integrate those functions into the cruise control buttons :thumbup:

Now that would be bad!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...9&d=1470128576

I'd need the S2000 wire spool as well. There's a guy near me with a wrecked S2000 parting it out, I should ask him what he wants for the wheel and spool. Do all of them come with CC?

I'm not positive, but I think all the ones I looked at when I bought mine had it.