End of the road for my Civic HX? (Update, HX fixed!)
 

Egad. Or !#$(*@#$&(!!!

My HX now gives regular CELs (several times a day). P0302, sometimes P0301/P0304/P1300. P0302 = misfire in cyl. #2. The other related #s are the other cylinders, P1300 is a random miss or multi-cylinder.

A shop reports 65 psi compression in cyl #2 and 185 psi in the others. It burns at least 20-25 oz oil per 1000 miles, and sometimes a lot more.

Maybe I'll get a first generation Insight?? Wife says to ditch this car but I think maybe a head rebuild could solve the issues. I commute 55 miles each way so a gas sipper is justified.

Mostly I'm venting :mad: but I'd like to read any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks!

Why not just try to source a replacement engine? There's no sense in getting rid of an otherwise good car for a simple days worth of engine changing.

That was my first thought. But many of these HX engines have the same issue(s). If the money is about the same and this engine's bottom end is OK I'd rather get the top end rebuilt. But wifey says to ditch the car. We'll see what my mechanic friend says after he looks inside with a camera that goes in through the spark plug hole.

IMHO a major source of trouble for the HX engine is the oil pan that only holds 3 qt. About 20 oil changes have proven that to me. Every shop manual says it holds more, so most of these are overfilled regularly. Not good for it.

But I think what got this one was that the head's oil drain holes plugged up, and so the pressure-fed top end components likely were oil starved. Bottom end maybe got enough pressure - I didn't ever see an oil light except just at startup, as one should.

An engine swap would be much easier. Check out what is available locally from auto salvage yards at car-part.com.

You could stick a non-HX engine in there easily enough on the cheap. Less mileage but o wells.

Or INSIGHT!!!!

I like the Insight idea! I've been looking a bit but didn't connect with one yet. Could happen though.

What with the lean burn engine and wideband oxy sensor, the HX uses a different computer. In fact I suspect each version of the engine has its own computer model. So putting in another Civic engine would likely require a bunch of other changes - I'm not really up to that out of fear of missing something.

Have your mech do a leakdown test. If it shows an issue in the head, a top end rebuild is a good option. However, if the compression is low on that cylinder due to bad rings, it's either time for a new engine, full rebuild or new car.

Just the opposite. If the oil drains were pluged that would trap oil on the top end which in turn would starve the bottom end.

High oil comsumption can be caused by bad valve stem seals, faulty pvc valve and or bad rings.

Do a wet and dry compression check to see if the problem is due to rings or valves. Or use a leak down tester.

It would be best to diagnosis the exact problem first before making a decision .

>

I had the same thought, at first. But no oil lights ever. So my guess is that enough got through to partially supply the pump. But the pressure-fed areas in head didn't get what they needed. Yes the top was soaking in a pool of oil but not pressurized into where its needed like valve guides and cam bearings.

Anyway I'm just making assumptions. A mechanic friend of mine is examining it today - or tomorrow if the snow keeps him home today.

Definitely get a proper breakdown of the actual issue. If you need just a rebuild, its much cheaper than engine, and furthermore, much cheaper than buying another car! Remember, part of eco/green is not about dumping things into a land fill! (well scrap yard in this case)

Not to mention a new engine means you'd be recycling! :D

I am rebuilding a 1992 Metro with a burnt exhaust valve that is in far worse shape than your car. I am using the opportunity to make it better on gas with modifications to the engine and a swap to a 5 speed transmission with a taller final drive than stock. Your problem is simple by comparison. Plus, I don't even have a job that pays all that well ( I deliver pizza) but I will still get it done.

I have been feeling my hx has been performing sub par and had a cel and it was a mis fire that i cured with a new set of plugs since the cylinder 3 was fouled. I still seem to have a dead spot in the lower power band.

I have done a compression check and the same cylinder is down, next thing to check is leak down.

It will be much cheaper and way more eco-friendly as others have said to fix the engine.

you can buy parts from the dealer and have new piston rings put in as im sure the rods,crank and pistons are fine, but even if they aren't it still can be rebuilt relatively inexpensively with factory replacement parts.

i say keep it and fix it!

That kind of difference in cylinder pressure then you more than likely have one of a couple problems My guess would be valve seals or rings. how many miles on the car has it been properly maintained through its life?

there is too much pressure to be a hole in the piston and both of these are common on a engine with a lot of miles or one not maintained . Not sure of the parts prices for a Honda but on a American V8 that is really a cheap easy fix.

If it were me i would remove the head and if you don't know what you are doing get it tested at a machine shop It is probably just a valve seal $2 a pop or something else like a weak spring that needs to be replaced. Rebuilding a head is much better than sourcing a junkyard model which may have same issue. Replacing the motor for the unknown is never a solution unless you get new. You may be happy with a "fixed" car and not a new unknown or a unknown replacement. I like to fix stuff and not throw out for something new.

if it is a valve seal and you have head rebuilt it will cost a couple hundred to have someone do the head work you do the removal and reinstall + you add in new gaskets + fluids replace and you have a great gas mileage car again and it runs like new.

If it is a bad ring you need to pull motor take bottom end apart replace ring put it back together and done :) much more expensive if you have someone do it. Sorry to say you Honda guys get ripped off constantly for the work they do :rolleyes:

Best of luck on your ride hope you figure it out.

Thanks all. :)

To answer NHRABill's questions re. mileage and prior care:

I bought the car at 150K miles and it's now at 218K. When I got it the oil was dirty and even after a change it would be blackish again within a couple hundred miles. Also it would take 1-2 hours for oil to drain into crankcase so I could get a consistent dipstick reading. I deduced the drain passages were pretty well clogged.

I used at least three things in the oil at different times to clean the innards and now it drains within moments. Any oil added in the top shows up immediately on the stick, not as before. Also the oil doesn't go blackish with use, but it does darken normally after 2-3 thousand miles.

So my mechanic friend reports:

Lousy compression in Cyl. #2, which does NOT improve when adding oil via spark plug hole. So there's a head/valve problem.

The shop has a small video camera on a long gooseneck that can be used to observe the interior of the cylinder. Slick, huh!! One valve (underside) showed heavy whitish deposits from oil coming down the valve stem and burning while oil was coated onto valve. That would be a burned valve. Top (seat) side of valve isn't really visible but the damage is there. One of the four valves was invisible due to the cylinder configuration. But it's pretty wild you can see anything in there without taking it apart!

The remaining question is, are there also bad rings or are they OK? I don't think we want to do a whole rebuild but wifey might go for a top end rebuild. I'm going to have to pay somebody, I'm not up to the job.

For the rings: This weekend I plan to test for weak rings by putting a few ounces of light oil in each via spark plug hole. Note crankshaft position and measure depth of oil in each with a straw for a dipstick. Make notes of the depths. Then later, check all cylinders for draindown. If any are really bad I should see some differences between cylinders. I can also crank the engine with a wrench to work the rings a bit. Not like running the engine but I should see some differences between cylinders if any have really bad rings. If there are bad rings I might have to ditch the whole thing. Not worth our $$ to replace the whole engine with a questionable used one.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I'll post again after I complete the proposed rings draindown test.

my thinking for buying the extra motor so that he would not have to deal with any down time, since i am guess this is his dd

It is indeed my dd, but I still have my Volvo 240 which I can use while the Civic is down.

If you know what the problem is, the parts can be ordered, and the car can be back on the road within a week, especially if it is at a shop. You could always get a rental car as well. Booking them for a week is pretty cheap, especially if you're older than 25!

That is good news Brucepick,

A bad valve seal will really chew up your oil and lose compression. It sounds like you have a good shop you are working with many mechanics don't go through the trouble to scope. you can do the straw test but i think you have already found your answer.

have the head rebuilt new valves, seals, springs and valve guides whatever the shop thinks you need. It well cost a few bucks but you will have a nice running motor again with all new gaskets to boot.

Best of luck in getting her running again, It is sweet driving a car after it is properly fixed you feel all that you originally liked about it.

Given the history of poor maintenance the car has seen, I would seek out a JDM engine from one of the many salvage engine importers and go with that. You will want to vet it properly before purchase though. After installation, be sure to pull the plugs and spin it over until the oil light goes out. Otherwise, you will likely spin a bearing because of how long the salvage engines typically sit. The only other choice would be a full rebuild as the bearings and rings are likely shot at this point too.

If the compression on the other cylinders is fine, and adding oil didn't help at all on that one, the rings are likely fine. The chances of them being more than a little off from the others wear-wise isn't enough to worry about.

Well I started the test - that is, I pulled the valve cover, put two ounces of 5W-20 in each spark plug hole, and cranked it over several times by hand (17 mm. socket on main crank bolt). So far, no differences between cylinders when checking with skinny wood dipstick into spark plug hole.

I'll check again after an hour or so and then later, to see how they drain down. If they don't drain ( !!!! ) I can always suck or siphon out most of the oil.

You definitely hear oil popping as the valves do their job. I'm concerned about oil getting pushed out into the combination exhaust manifold+cat converter. All cylinders went down about 3/16 inch from the first couple hand-cranked engine revolutions. Hopefully that stuff will burn off promptly without wrecking the converter.

So - for anyone contemplating trying this, I recommend:

0) Hand-crank slowly. Oil spurted out the spark plug tube more than once and landed on the manifold.
1) Add only 1 or 1.5 oz. per cylinder.
2) Raise the car's nose ahead of time, sufficiently to have the top surface of cylinder head level in the fore-aft direction in additional to the left-right leveling. (Use a small level.) One reason I put in a whole 2 oz was that I wasn't able to lift the nose enough. I wanted oil contacting the whole ring circle, not just on the downhill end. Apparently the Civic block is canted in the engine bay.
3) Use thinner oil. 0W-20 would not be too thick. The 5W-20 has gone down only 5/16 inch in about 1.5 hours with intermittent hand cranking of engine.

Like I said I am not a Honda Guy and never rebuilt one but on a standard Chevy you have 3 ring grooves and there is a slight chamfered gap between rings installing them staggered is the proper method if rings are installed in a stacked position with each gap in alignment it will have less PSI when testing oil in your test will drain quicker.

Below is a link to the proper installation of SBC rings the more you understand how they work the better informed you will be to diagnose a potential problem maybe lookup a Honda version. Good luck, but I still think ya have bad valve seals or possible bent valve or bad spring. Not sure if it is the same but a spring tester is a must when I rebuild engines to make sure it can handle a cams lift, sometimes straight from factory I find a problem in the spring rate.

http://www.team-integra.net/sections...62a7dcde87.jpg

It took nearly a week for all the oil to drain out of the cylinders.

My friend got the head off and I got it back from the machine shop today. It needed 4 exhaust valves and 8 valve guides. And um, a bunch of money. One valve was visibly burned; I don't know yet why the other three were rejected. Maybe my mechanic friend will see what's wrong with them.

I cleaned a good 1/16" inch or more of baked-on carbon from two piston tops. The other two pistons will have to wait for the weekend. No cleaners I tried did much good but a Dremel rotating bristle brush thing was good. Keep a vacuum hose end right there to grab all flying dust, and suck it out of the gap between piston and cylinder wall often too.

There's a crack in the exhaust manifold that my friend plans to weld up. I pay him for his time on weekends or evenings.

The poor darling... You've gone this far already, sounds like she'll be saved! I was going to offer to trade you my EX straight up for it: working EX for borked HX... that's fair right? :) Good luck!

im a lurker but...

the special parts of this car is the head, intake, computer and higher geared trans.

I think...

I'm considering finding a suitable body for my motor trans with 265k.

i figured anything with a d16y block would be a head.

Lean Burn Civic Rides Again!
 

Wonderboy - thanks! EX is still humming, eh?

Update:
Lean Burn Civic rides again! My mechanic friend got the head back on today and it runs like a top. So far I only have about 30 miles on the rebuilt head but I do believe I have a good-running fuel sipper on my hands.

One valve was burned, giving 65 psi compression in that cylinder. The shop replaced four valves and eight valve guides, and all new valve seals. Plus the usual cleaning, pressure testing, milling it flat, yada yada.

You have a working motor that needs a body??

And the wideband oxy sensor. Not sure there's anything special about the intake, unless you count my warm air intake mod. Dremel cut holes in the air filter housing to pull in air heated by radiator, that's all it is.

Yes the tranny is geared tall but I think the DX and maybe some others had the same ratios. I think you can find that info per each "trim level" model on autos.com under "research" if you want to chase it down.

good to see you have it back running again. It should be running a lot better than before and you can see better mileage :)

Yes I have a 260k motor with a Broken body interior windows I'm a mechanic and honestly I'd rather change the eng and trans rather that fixing everything that's wrong with the inside.

Glad you got it fixed up, Bruce.

Also - wow, nice fuel log since the repair! 1997 Honda Civic HX Gas Mileage (Lean Burn Civic) - EcoModder.com

2 fill-ups since the work and you're 10+ MPG / 35% higher than your previous 2 fill-ups.

Yes - it's doing nicely, knock on wood. Getting 46 mpg tanks regularly. On a good day I do better than that on a 50 mile commute run, around 50 mpg.

I had to clean the EGR a couple times after the head rebuild. Apparently you're supposed to do that every 30K or something like that?? I got a CEL that sent me to the EGR - P0401. I hope I don't have to replace it - best price I could find was $180 locally, and about $130-something on the web.