Engine warm-up FAIL
 

Five Ways You May Be Prematurely Aging Your Car

As of now there are 551 posts commenting on this Autoblog article. I've only read 40 or 60 or so comments but much to my chagrin- but not surprise- there was only one lonely post defending the notion of not idling engines to warm them up.

Thank you fellow Duhmericans- you cease to amaze me yet again. :mad:

My focus can idle all day in the cold and it will never come up to temperature. ..

I idle my insight for ac in the summer. Still going strong.

In the winter I idle it with the defroster on. It doesnt get to room temp, but enough to melt frost. :thumbup:

When I have to scrape the ice off then I usually run the engine, pain in my heart for the waste of fuel, but if I don't the windows do fog up and I have to stop again within a minute to clear it away once or twice; the A/C just does not cut it below freezing when the car is still (completely) cold.

And my kids complain about the cold.
They'll be out in the cold again at the school yard (nowhere to park close by).
The short idling warm up makes a bit of a difference; I'll do that.

If it doesn't freeze it is start 'n roll.

You need a new thermostat.

regards
mech

Been there, done that. The first time it wasn't on my dime. I don't want to throw another $200 thermostat at it.

Whoa whoa whoa... back up a little bit. $200 for a 'stat?!? :eek: Does the thing have a microcomputer in it?

Some new cars have electronically controlled T'stats to aid in warm up. They don't open at all until the ECU is happy with engine temp. This contrasts with a Bimetal spring which starts letting cold coolant in well before the engine is up to temp.

The traditional thermostat has a bulb full of wax that expands as the engine warms up and opens at a given temperature threshold, opposing the force of a large strong spring. The one for my Sentra was $18 from a Nissan dealership.

Maybe if it wasn't on your dime, it wasn't done.

In 45 years working on cars, I have never seen an engine that would not warmup that was not fixed with a properly operating thermostat.

Without properly warming up your cars engine will suffer long term term damage from the effects of running too cold, to say nothing about the significant loss in mileage.

regards
mech

Ahhh, $200 electronically controlled 'stats... Now THAT's progress! :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ne0zoyNeOI

youtube replacement video, a little over 6 minutes.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...hermostat+cost

seems like the price is the huge part. I would check with rock auto. Got a pair of rear struts for my Sentra delivered to my door for $48. Dealership would have been $3-500 +.
Did the labor myself with a $14.95 harbor freight spring compressor, saved me about $100 per hour of my labor and that's tax free money in my pocket, otherwise spent.

regards
mech

My 37 Ford would get 60 psi cranking on the original 6 volt system with a cranking speed of 100 rpm, about a third of a modern engine. I never let an engine warm up. If I had to deal with ice on the windows. I would either cover them with something, or carry a scraper.

Now if we are talking about sub 0 (farenheit) weather then I would run the engine on max defrost-recirculate while scraping the windows (all of them), or use a spray chemical deicer.

regards
mech

Another possibility is that they knocked the wire off the temperature sending unit.

Best way to check for that is to let the engine run and see if the EXIT cooling hose (the one connected to the thermostat housing) gets hot when the thermostat opens (maybe a few minutes). If the hose suddenly gets hot then the thermostat is working but the temperature gauge is not reading properly, most likely that could be fixed by just reconnecting the wire to the temp sending unit.

Easy for that to happen on modern engines where those things are buried in places that are not easily accesible, but it's hard to believe that any decent repair shop would not check their work and make sure everything was working as it was designed.

regards
mech

No, it's easy to believe.

If Miller's Focus has the same Duratec as my 07, the cost is in the labor. The stat housing is burried under the intake manifold. I'm sure the mechanic knows of tricks to change the stat without pulling the intake but the service department still charges the time recommended by Ford for the job.

Also, with the fan on max hot from the moment the car is started, it will take a long time to warm up the engine as the heater core is pulling out any bit of heat the engine is making as soon as it's made. My Saturn was the same way; would only reach like 120degrees if the heater was never turned off. When my windows need to be scraped, I start the car and make sure the heater is off so that the engine retains whatever amount of heat it creates, enabling the engine to warm up faster and deliver me better heat when I'm done and need to clear the inside of the windshield.

Bet you never looked at a Gen1 Insight, then :-) In cold weather, it simply won't warm up to full operating temperature at idle. Even with a radiator block, it takes 10+ miles of driving at 50-60 mph to get up to temp. (On level roads, of course: the couple of miles of 5-6% grade going the other way from my house get it close.) Which of course means that idling to warm up the engine is pretty useless.


Though I have to say that I'm not real impressed with the article overall. Take the crap about Not allowing adequate separation from other cars (and things like deer & cows) is what forces you to brake hard. Plenty of places around here where I could do 100 mph (were I so inclined :-)), and never have to touch the brakes at all.

What about a block heater?

I have the oem block heater, it prevents the coolant from reaching 32 degrees. Its no match for the hvac set to defrost when its freezing out. My insight is a gen 2, but its like mentioned above. It will never reach 180 if the hvac is turned on from cold. With the block heater it takes a while to exceed 127, then many miles later to get about 150 degrees.

What I do is hold the engine at 3 grand. This way it also charges the ima battery and warming it too up in the process. :thumbup:

Discussion on block heater sizing:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ing-25512.html
Installing a real block heater:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mer-23893.html
Warming up the engine fast with out external power and keeping it warm even with the heater blasting:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ler-29085.html

Agreed.
That is precisely why I do not want a newer vehicle.
They have taken something simple, cheap and effective and replaced said element with far more expensive gold plated junk that doesn't work.

Now that I'm at a computer ...

If there's any sort of load (driving, etc), it'll warm up to 180F and maintain 180F. In the summer it will run a bit warmer, but it never runs below it. I don't think the thermostat is bad ... but the car is relatively efficient. If it's -10F out and the car is just idling, I don't think it uses enough fuel to make heat. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I have hit the radiator hoses with an iR thermometer along with shooting the coolant in the radiator with an iR thermometer - nothing was flowing into the radiator. I've toyed around with the idea of replacing it with a 190F thermostat out of a late model Ranger (it will interchange) ... but I can't figure out where the fan is programmed to turn on and what's ideal operating temperature.

On my Cherokee, I know the ideal temperature is 210 ... so that's what I shoot for in the winter. Even though the hottest thermostat I can get is 190.

On top of the labor involved, it's a thermostat housing / sensor / thermostat all - in - one. One can try to replace just the thermostat, but that often doesn't go well as you have to cut them apart and mold them back together.

On topic ...

I think a lot of older people are just programmed to idle the car. When my parents started driving, it was all carburetor vehicles with SAE30 and SAE40 oil in them. Mayyyyyyyyyyyybe a "light" 10w-40.

Carbureted cars, especially with thick oil, don't like to run in the cold. I can imagine the frustration of cranking your car for 3 days straight, pumping the pedal 30,000,000 times - having it finally start running on 1 or 2 cylinders, just to drop it into gear and have it stall. Back at square 1.

Takes a while before SAE30 will start flowing well. Also takes a while before a carbureted engine will actually drive a transmission without stalling.

I usually run 0w-20 in the Focus in the winter. It flows instantly. It has EFI, so it starts instantly; no cranking for an hour while I pump a gas pedal and hope and pray it might start sometime this year. I usually wait until it idles below 2500RPM and I take off.

I think Miller88 that is a lot of eco cars. I had a 06 scion xa and worked at a trucking company. To avoid traffic and snow I would arrive at work early and either idle out front with the heater on and frequently circle the block til they open. The reason I circle the block is that the water temp dropped like a rock to 127 degrees from a 180 in a matter of minutes.

Now days most TBI and throttles have coolant that circulates through them. Back in the day that wasnt the case either.

Bet you could have saved enough gas money to afford a decent winter coat :-)

Seriously, I can't understand people who dress too lightly for the weather because they think they'll be in a warm - possibly pre-warmed - vehicle. What do they think is going to happen when the car breaks down, or the snow piles up faster than the plows can handle, and they're stranded? I not only dress for the weather, if I'm going anywhere out of easy walking distance of a warm place, I'll throw my winter-weight sleeping bag in the car, too.

Is that with the blower running?

Even if it's 0degF, with the blower off on my car, it will keep warming up until the radiator fan comes on. Even after warmed up, if I put my blower on full speed, I can drive the coolant temp down into the 130s at idle

That's why I carry a sleeping bag, heavy winter jacket and gloves/socks with me - in addition to being properly dressed to begin with.

I had a curious observation about a month ago, I was idling the car so my son would stay asleep while my wife was shopping. Anyway, the heat was on low and the radiator fans didn't come on once in a half an hour of idling. I was watching the fuel usage on Torque and it was using .225 - .250 gph, I imagine if I had turned the heat up it would have overcooled the engine.

In contrast, the intrepid had a smaller engine and used about .450 gph and I could run the heat full blast and never cool the engine.

I dont wear a winter coat until it is below freezing, usually just a sweater. But I keep gloves, an extra coat, and a sock hat in the car, along with a case of water in the trunk.

Cars have had watercooling to the intake manifold, at least since the 1960s. Before that they used exhaust manifold heat at least back to the first flathead ford in 1932. They also preheated the air going into the carburetor.

In the Z20-24 NAPZ 4 cylinder nissan engine used in the 200sx, just before fuel injection was introduced in the D21 "hardbody" in 1987, they even had a heated electrical mesh in the throat of the carburetor to provide additional heat to the incoming air-fuel mix.

Venturis in carbs create higher velocity which means potential "icing" in carbs. Disconnect the additional heat sources and the car-truck was undriveable. My 63 Valients (slant 6) all had the intake connected to the exhaust with a heated bimetallic spring controlled flap that restricted the exhaust flow when cold, combined with a preheat system to the air cleaner to prevent icing.

regards
mech

I generally don't use the heater and wear enough gear to keep warm. If I use the heater, its to keep the wife warm when she rides in my car. If the windows want to fog up I use defrost, no fan, fresh air, and lower my door window an inch to provide flow.

My car stays in the garage which virtually eliminates ice on the windows. If I had to keep it outside, I'd probably get some kind of cover.

regards
mech

Even before I got into fuel economy, I thought it was a bit silly to idle the car to warm up. But then, I did grow up in California.

Back to that t-stat conversation, I did replace the t-stat in my Mom's Mazda3 (Duratec 23). The thermostat was fairly expensive ($30 I think?) but nowhere near $200. Came from AutoZone. It took a bit of hassle, but I was able to replace it without removing anything else at all. Don't fear it!

I had a 7 mile commute and it took a bit longer for the car to get comfortable. Never considered bundling up in a new car with a fully functional heater. :thumbup:

I tried it in the insight to save heater use for mpg, but windows kept fogging up. Ended up having to run defroster on cold days.

I didn't see a single person mention this little tidbit of what really drove that don't warm up statement.

It's not about your car lasting it's about getting that car to operating temp as fast as possible to drop emission levels. The cat will never get to operating temps in a cold climate at cold idle when the engine is running a rich mixture. That statement was EPA driven.

The owners manual on my BMW k1100 motorcycle that's equiped with a Cat point blank warns of damaging the cat by long warm ups before driving.
I wait till I'm up to at least 80f on the scan gage and thn I slowly drive out of my hood Trying to keep the RPMs down while the oil is thick. Thick oil will be bypassing

Wow, folks are all over the map on this cold weather driving stuff. Even on this forum we have people being careful to try and save fuel, yet carrying cases of water around with them everywhere they go.

Here's my addition to the general lore. I 'warm up' my car for 30 seconds to a minute every time I start it. I do this to give lubricants a chance to get everywhere they need to get, and pressure levels to rise a bit, before starting out. I accomplish this by starting the car before buckling up. Get in -> start car -> buckle seatbelt -> put on sunglasses (optional) -> put vehicle in gear. I then drive gently until the vehicle has attained normal operating temps (water temp - my vehicles don't have oil temp gauges).

In really cold weather I give things a bit more time, but for the same reasons. My vehicles sit outside so there are days that they might idle for 5 minutes while I clear the windows. (Mech, car covers are impractical to try and use every day.)

I don't overdress for driving. At my old house and my old job I commuted through a state park / gameland area, with no houses for several miles in any direction. Then I would carry blankets and boots and whatnot, in case I got stranded out there and had to hoof it out. The reality where I live/work now is that I am never going to be more than about 5 minutes away from a house, place of business, or another person in another vehicle, so I'm not going to freeze to death. Plus there is this thing called a cellphone these days.

It's actually quite the opposite. There are guys on this forum who fail emissions because they do not get enough fuel to the cat to burn the harmful emissions from eco driving. I blow the carbon out of my car at least once a week. :thumbup:

Have you personally failed emissions from that Cobb?

My (former) '01 Taurus, father's 01 F350 5.4 and my '11 Focus idle at asinine speeds to light the cat off ASAP. They all will shoot to 2500RPM on cold start. When the exhaust fell off the pickup, that thing would wake the dead when it started and idled at 2500RPM.

The Focus and the F350 are manual transmissions, and they'll go along 30, 35 MPH with your foot off the gas in 5th gear until the cat lights off. The most annoying thing is, they refuse to idle below 2500RPM when moving. Makes shifting on a cold morning nearly impossible.

My Taurus would go about 15MPH or so shifting into 2nd and sometimes 3rd with no throttle applied.

My Jeep doesn't do that ... I could see it destroying the cat idling for a long time


It's an all-in-one. From Rock Auto, looks like I can get either a 180 or 203 thermostat for $89. I just don't know what is ideal operating temp. I don't want to ruin anything by running it at 203 all the time ...

My motorcycle has a "choke" lever. It's not really a choke since its fuel injected just BMW reusing the controls that had been in production for years. It's only function is to prop open the throttle bodies and idle it up to 1800 rpm as currently adjusted. It's like nails on a chalk board to me hearing the cold aluminum engine running those RPM's when it's 35f in the morning all to get that CAT hot. :eek:

I read about changing Thermostats a lot here and other boards. Other forums (truck, car) always saying to people who are having overheat issues to put in 180f thermostats in place of the factory thermostats with higher rating not realizing most modern fuel injected cars are designed around a 200-215f operating temp. Sometimes a lower temp thermostat actually will let the coolant move too fast and not shed heat in the radiator making them actually run hotter, common problem when taking the thermostat out completely. I often wonder how many cars are failing to stay in closed loop from this.

My land cruiser that I bought in March has me wondering what the PO has put in it for a thermostat. My SG2 is showing 173f on the HWY this time of the year. I'm getting a code on coolant temp but there is a recall for a ECM fault that trips the same code that I need to investigate. Highest I have ever seen was 195f middle of summer here in Atlanta caught in traffic.

I know its apples to oranges, but a lot of cars wont even turn the fans on until 210-215 degrees.

My old car would happily run between 200 and 220

2500?! Neither of my Foci did anywhere near that, although my SVT did have an annoying habit of not idling down in neutral, even when fully warmed up, until you came to a dead stop. My Toyota is just as bad, even demanding 1000+rpm when ECT is in the 170s. The Jeep doesn't surprise me, Mopars tend to prefer a lower cold idle...my 5.9 Magnum van and my Dad's old 5.2 Magnum Ram cold idled anywhere from 900-1100rpm.

That's awfully expensive...I'd do a bit more shopping, I spent nowhere near that much. I confirmed a $29.99 price for it at AutoZone. I did opt for factory temperature (180) when replacing it.

Well, that's your reality :-) Mine is that I quite frequently am in the mountains or desert, 20+ miles from the nearest house or cell phone tower. The problem is people who come from your reality to mine, but expect it to still be like yours.

As for warming up, my vehicles get the time between starting the engine and letting out the clutch. They're an '88 and '00, and both are still running strong.