Firefly appears to be back in business with product!
 

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News about Firefly's Breakthru Carbon Foam Lead Acid - DIY Electric Car Forums

Firefly is back in business but...

Firefly Oasis 12V Deep Cycle Battery | eBay

Holy crap batman!

At least you can buy them but at $0.29 wthr with a similar curve to a cheap lithium is it worth it?

It literally is the same price as lithium!

Looking at the charge discharge life information they perform very well on a lifespan basis and "should" be less hassle than lithium with a similar life.

I am hoping that they make it so they can get the price reduced and the 3d2 technology released but early adopters will pay a steep price for the name.

If they had an 8v 200ahr version for the same price I would probably bite just for the purpose of doing a real world test, but 110ahr 12v aren't much help in either of my EVs.

Cheers
Ryan

Thanks for posting that. I had gone looking for news about the company a few months back and ... nada.

Odd the new owners grabbed it all in 2010, yet MIA until a few months back.

I am always tempted by advanced tech lead batteries, but $2400 for a very very basic 72v pack is mind boggling for lead. My last lead pack was $200 (but the junkyard is cheaper)

Ah well.

If it's still lead .. with some minor sulphating issues ... and lead is still a heavy metal and is still poissionous ... and the battery's performance is comparable, but not quite as good as LiFePO4, but it costs just as much as LiFePO4

Where's the advantage? Am I missing something?

Why not go with LiFePO4 and get:
- stable performance that's been tested in use
- better cycle life (5000+ cycles to 60% DOD)
- higher current rating (10C or better)
- no discussion about weight - perhaps that is comparable as well?

I have been talking with firefly privately...

These do not fail because of sulphation, much like the greensaver pack in my fathers minivan they fail from being charged, gradual water loss and separation of the active materials.

The advantage is that their RETAIL is $325, bulk discounts are less, so these do end up less than lithium or agm per usable wt/hr if you are the right buyer; and they are made in the US and recyclable here. Also the poisonis issue is moot, all batteries if mishandled don't belong in the environment, lead has the best recycling rate of any of the chemestries out there. Also they can tolerate a full FLAT 0 volt discharge and come back after 5 cycles

The fact that these are drop in replacements in a variety of motorhomes, standard vehicles and the like without anything special means they will offer 3x + life in those applications

The last reason would be to support an american battery startup in the hope that we can get multiple alternatives from them later down the road, lithium is not the end all. Having the masses get a reliable battery even if made of lead is a huge step forward. Also the companies goal was a CHEAP battery that also had better capacity and reliability, if they ever get to that point we will really have a compelling reason (cost) to go back to lead.

Whether these are compelling, I leave that to you. I think personally given what they have told me about the non-linear peukert which doesn't even start until 50amps then goes in a bell curve I think these are best left in cars, motorhomes and possibly home power. They have talked to me about a high amperage varient but honestly they start looking more like regular lead when you get to higher discharges like an EV experiences, the main reason is drop in compatibility and 3600 cycles under most DODs regardless of the conservative spec.

Stable performance is matter of perspective, in a on-bms uncontrolled chargin situation that many evs still have lead is better because it tolerates it.

That said firefly batteries DO NOT tolerate overcharge very well, how extreme that issue is remains to be determined. They do tolerate going flat and staying that way for months, which to me would make them great for motorcycle starting batteries.

Cycle life on lithium is a point of contention, just look at Nissans battery degredation issue, some work well others not so much, the firefly battery is typically rated at 3600 cycles by the way. Their curves are supposed to be conservative.

Firefly feels their low amperage battery would still perform better than my old fashioned 6v golf cart despite the exponential peukert but without real world tests I have no idea. They also feel I would get more range, which is possible but again it would vary even more with driving style and I guess with recovery time after runs because the batteries rapidly self charge to higher SOC after you let off the go pedal.

Ah well, unless someone blows a wad on them we won't really know for sure. I do know I can definately get lead batteries with a larger under load capacity but also at higher weight and with a shorter life for less money.

I will wait until they make a batch of high amerage batteries again and get a batch if the price is right (they do give a lot of discounts)

If they work and last better than the greensavers they may be worthwhile.
(7 of my 8 greensavers are still at 90% but one broke the casing :( )

Cheers
Ryan

Yea I going along with where is the advantage and/or benefit......?
You are talking about a 12volt 100amp battery 300-400USDollar ebay cost
beside more cycle life what other benefits to lead agm....battery....

I orig like the firefly concept however the federal energy loans/grants taxpayer funds just where not spent wisely.........I know hindsight is 20/20 but A123, solyndra, and firefly (all bankruptcy)(reorg) burn thru financial capital with poor management oversight.........

So, we're talking about a battery technology that is:

-Just as heavy as regular Lead-Acid
-Just as costly as Lithium (but could decrease in price)
-More finicky on overcharge than standard LA-although not as much as Lithium-but just fine for months at full disharge
-Robust enough not to need BMS, better life cycle than LA (not quite up to Lithium yet) and no Sulphation issues?

If my understanding of the tech is accurate, and I were part of this company...then my marketing goals would be the replacement of all the standard Lead-Acid Deep Cycle market-Marine batteries, Golf Carts, RVs, stationary power supplies etc. If there are enough early adopters to the 'more expensive but far superior, and with no mods to your existing device' market, then Firefly could start something I would seriously like to see! I definitely wouldn't try to compete in the Electric Vehicle market with them though-Weight is King there, lack of expensive BMS notwithstanding...

I'm not exactly swimming in money(haven't had full time employment for over a year) but having just sold my house and purchased a gently used RV, I would be happy to be an early adopter of at least two or three of these. I've already set a budget aside to Ecomod my 29' Jayflight with LED bulbs, injected Closed cell foam between the walls and another Soupcan Solar Thermal Unit (I left the originals with the house so the new owners could enjoy Frugal Heat) so i'm sure I can take the money hit in the hopes that the next ones will be far cheaper...:thumbup:

So is there an ETA on battery availability, and will they be available for individual as well as bulk purchases? More importantly, have the Firefly performance claims been verified yet?

The FireFly battery has lightweight lead plated foam plates so shouldn't weigh as much as lead-acid battery.

Even better!

I don't see the Firefly advantage, other than a superior replacement for an AGM battery - RVs, boats, etc. Considering lifespan, LiFePO4 is just so cheap. And arguably more predictable during charging and discharging.