Friends do not let friends buy Volkswagons
 

I seem to have a pretty good track record at starting arguments, even though I have never wanted one. I bring up Volkswagons because a coworker says that he needs to sell his motorcycle to purchase a VW and I told him that I have read numerous times that they just are not that reliable, including the mechanic that inspected a Civic that I considered purchasing--he said that Hondas were reliable, but he was always repairing his Jetta.

Coworker said that one mechanic will tell you one thing while another says something quite different. True. Will any mechanic say that Japanese cars are unreliable? I know that many people say derogatory things and that we need to purchase "American!" I have seen "Friends do not let friends buy VWs" on here five times. I know that we have some diehard VW fans, as well as Ford, and Chrysler, and plenty of people say that each of those is unreliable.

I have seen arguments rage regarding Prius versus TDI, while Prii are argued to be fun to drive, I do not see how they could compare with a turbodiesel. I have said that my understanding is that a Volkswagon dealer would tell you that you need a new turbo when you have a carbon buildup that some hard driving could burn off, while a Toyota dealer would tell you "Your car is ready, we changed the oil, topped off the fluids, checked everything else, and you are good to go! We will see you in another three months!"

Can we discuss VW reliability? Feel free to flame, just send me private messages! :)

First off, I have 3 Toyotas (99 Avalon, 92 Camry, 05 Camry). My experience with Toyota dealers and MOST Toyota mechanics is that they say "Hi, now bend over and spread your cheeks!" THAT has been my experience with Toyo dealers. I have a friend who has driven Toyo's since 1985, and that also has been his experience on more than one occasion. In fairness, I have had the same experience at Ford and Chevrolet dealers. But I have also had a good experience at a Ford and a Chevrolet dealer. I think that it depends on how slimy the mech is that you get. I have no VW experience.

I had an 85 fox that would not die for the longest time!

Mind you it was pre - abused before i got it. No muffler, no interior, not even window cranks (wood shims to hold the glass), brakes that required multiple pumps to stop (often with help from the e-brake), a hole in the radiator! No clutch (really wasted, had to power shift up and down)
But that motor was strong! It loved the abuse, I swear! I drove it like that almost a year, never put a dime into it (lots of water, though). great car :D

Can't speak for any other VW'S, but that car was one of the most fun I've ever had. Just a cheap beater that went from a to b (with a stop for a drink every 20 minutes or so! - radiator hole!)

just like I'm laughing right now thinking about that car,it was a real jalopy! You all must think I'm crazier now!

I was16. It was fun. No regrets.

Thanks,
Victor

Subaru is a Japanese company that has problems with head gaskets on all of their 2.5L engines. It's just a known problem that an owner must be willing to address during ownership, and I have no idea why the flaw has remained for 20 years. My friend had a 1999 Outback and went through 3 head gaskets before essentially giving the car away. He then purchased a 2006 Outback and had his first head gasket begin to leak both oil and water.

That same friend has owned 2 VW Jetta diesels (not turbo) and went through 3 engines. He no longer drives them, and sticks to the Subaru knowing he will have to play the head gasket game. I never had a head gasket issue (never had anything break or wear out) with my 1996 Subaru Legacy in 245,000 miles, but it had the 2.2L engine. I just did oil changes, brake pads, spark plugs and wires once, and kick the dust out of the air filter.

Another friend has a 2002 VW Golf 2.0L with 135,000 miles. He is over about every other month to fix something or other. His current problem is a misfire in 3 cylinders, likely caused by a failed engine coolant temperature sensor. The sensor is registering the temperature as -40 F when I connect with the Torque app. About a year ago his alternator went out, and they are more expensive than Japanese or domestic alternators. A few months before that, it had a bad shake caused by worn axles. The DRL burn out all the time too. My opinion is the suspension is due for damper replacement too.

This is all unacceptable in my opinion. I thrashed my Subaru through the forest, climbed steep hills at speed smashing boulders, and never slowed down for potholes and caught air several times. The suspension was fine even at 240,000 miles and nothing ever broke. I never replaced brake fluid, power steering fluid, or engine coolant.

My experience is VW has many little parts failures that just aren't normal on other makes. To add insult to injury, they require specialized tools, like a hollowed out hex wrench, to remove normal items in the engine bay. You must remove the intake manifold to get to the spark plugs. Poor engineering from a maintenance perspective.

When I drove a school bus, I spent a great deal of time on the road, and I noticed many VWs with a burned-out headlight, perhaps some had both out, I just could not tell. When I met Volkswagon owners I asked about that and they said they had problems with their windows and others that I forget. Dad had a Volkswagon.

One.

It caught on fire.

As I recall, Mom bought the car before she married Dad, and before she had a license, so she needed someone else to drive it. Three or four kids later, it would not start, and a mechanic used pliers to force the ignition.

On his way home he noticed a "ram-jet" of sorts; I honestly do not blame the car itself. With the insurance money, he bought his 1989 Ford Escort Pony, which was a good car, lasting 350,000 miles, and I saw it at least once, in a town called Payson, roughly halfway between his old house and mine, with a very faded "I am proud of my Eagle Scout" bumper sticker.

I am that Eagle Scout!

Dad sold me one Focus with a quarter-million miles and another with 200,000. He took good care of his cars and they worked well for him.

Bacon now has a leaking head gasket. I asked the mechanic at the dealership if my ex overheated the engine before replacing the radiator and he told me that I could not blame her for that, there would be other problems had she done that, but they quoted $3,500 for a car that I am pretty sure is worth nineteen hundred.

J.D. Power gives the 2,014 Beetle 3/5 for quality and expected reliability 2014 Volkswagen Beetle Hatchback Ratings | J.D. Power

4/5 and 3/5 for the CC: 2014 Volkswagen CC 2.0T Sport Sedan Ratings, Prices, Trims, Summary | J.D. Power

5/5 and 2/5 for the GTI: 2014 Volkswagen GTI Wolfsburg Edition Hatchback Ratings, Prices, Trims, Summary | J.D. Power

3/5 and 2/5 for the Golf: 2014 Volkswagen Golf 2.5L Hatchback Ratings, Prices, Trims, Summary | J.D. Power

Ad naseum. I looked through a few pages and the highest "Predicted Reliability" was 3/5.

Seconded---Took my car in for two recalls, was told after said recalls were done that they needed to replace my serpentine belt and clean my rear brake drums (lolwut) to the tune of $257. I laughed and replaced my serpentine belt myself for $18.

To the matter of VW's, I have had two friends with VW's, and BOTH of them have cost thousands in repairs. When you add to that all the proprietary parts they have (including having to buy a f***ing special wrench to take off a BRAKE CALIPER), it just becomes a hassle. Why would anyone buy a VW? They are unreliable moneypits.

My opinion anyway.

I'm a big fan of the classic air-cooled VWs and perhaps some of the earliest liquid-cooleds (I do like their diesel engine of the early 80s) although an '80 Rabbit diesel is where the tide began to turn with my opinion of VW. The '80 was decent and I loved that diesel drivetrain, and it was still a pretty simple vehicle. Rust protection was non-existent. See any old Rabbits anymore??? Maybe outside of the Rust Belt but virtually extinct here. In '82 you could order for extra cost opening wing windows. The glass was GLUED on to the hinges. Of course, at some point when you go to open the window the whole damn thing falls onto the road. VW says "Tough isht" to you. :mad:

As noted by other posters, they design a lot of fiddly, damn near user unserviceable stuff onto their vehicles- unserviceable because you need special tools and/or you have to disassemble half the vehicle to get to the trouble spot. It doesn't have to be that way. They are just being dicks... on purpose. You are supposed to run to the stealership for every little thing. Of course the stealership is not exempt from having to disassemble half the car to work on it either, and that is reflected in the bill, which makes you wonder if you shouldn't have just scrapped the pile of junk.

VW execs have forgotten that "VW" stands for "people's car".

Meh, I've had reliable skodas, and shonky bmws..

The £170quid polo is pootling along ok at the moment. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

The ability to figure out what is wrong and how to solve it is key-regardless of manufacturer.
also-service and look after the car and it'll look after you.

This thread reminds me of this flow chart...

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7...thatpassat.png

:D

I'm a fan of the aircooleds as well. My grandparents had early Rabbits, his was a diesel that was built in Germany, and the only trouble was that the plastic coolant overflow tank eventually broke. (Gramps welded up a new one out of aluminum, I think it was.) Hers was a few years later, was US-built, and pretty spectacularly unreliable. They ditched it after the warranty ran out.

VW got better after that, and then worse again. I think the newer ones are decent now, but if you go back a decade things are much worse.

Note that most European cars require more maintenance than most of the Japanese and Korean cars. I'm OK with that.

-soD

My parents had a 1988-89 VW Box ...I mean Fox.
It didn't last very long before it died.
My sister had a 2000 Dodge Intrepid.
To get to the battery, you have to remove the fender.
What a shame that such a beautiful design just covered up a turd underneath.

After reading over this thread, I'm glad I drive a Honda.

I just spent $7,000 on my T5 2.5 TDI at ~25,000 miles, but the head's cracked (known fault) it needs a drive shaft (known fault) and while the engine is out, may as well do the clutch and DMF. That adds up to at least $15k at independent rates or about $24,000 at the dealer :eek:

Volkswagen? or Millionairewagen?

My mechanic says they all have issues from the Polo all the way up, they're designed to make it through warranty and then become a nice little(?) income earner for the spares and maintenance departments.

I've test driven everything else on the market and nothing comes close to my amazing 2.5TDI (including the new BiTurbo), I actually don't mind spending a bit of money maintaining it, but I have my limits.

Holy s***! My whole car cost me less than $13,000.

I love this flowchart! Mine would say to buy a Honda. .

Thanks,
Victor

Many people are critical of Consumer Reports, but I tend to agree with their reliability findings based on my own observations.

The least reliable brands appear to be VW, Mercedes, Jeep, and Land Rover. Some of the models within those brands have average reliability, but overall a poor track record.

I sold my 2002 Jeep Liberty with 120,000 miles on it in the hopes of avoiding major repair issues. In the 2 years I owned it, I had a transfer case sensor go out, an elusive "window open" chime that would go off constantly and illuminate the interior lights, and an evap leak, not to mention 18 MPG no matter what I did. I fixed all those cheap and relatively easy problems and sold it immediately after, before anything else could develop.

In 100k miles, I've done nothing but yearly oil changes on my 2006 Acura TSX (Euro Accord). I've kicked the dust off the air filter, replaced a glove box damper that I broke ($5), and changed the wiper blades a couple times.

I might change out the gear oil and coolant this year for the first and last time of my ownership. Any recommendations for Honda gearbox oil?

When I changed it on my crx i researched that and came to opinions being generally 50/50 between Honda MTF and synchromesh. I ended up using synchromesh and I approve!

I'm another one that has no VW experience but I have been bent over backwards by dealerships.
My Toyota Tacoma had an electrical problem, I would turn on the cruise control and set the speed. If I were to turn on my parking lights it would kill my CC and I couldn't use it again until I killed and re started the engine. After weeks of trying to figure it out myself for weeks I took it to toyota and come to find out there was a short in the taillight bulb. $120 later... FOR A BULB:mad: they charged me for an hour of labor, when I bet it took the mechanic 5 minutes.

Took my CRX to Honda for blinkers not working. They fixed that for a hour of labor:mad:took the car home and tried to start it the next morning, no juice, the battery was dead. Lights weren't on and battery was just fine before the dealership. Called and left a voicemail on how the tech killed my battery (porter even told me my car had to be jumped) so they looked at my car free of charge. Then I get a call and they want $464 to replace the alternator. Hell NO. Cost me $80 for a new alternator and a couple hours of my time.

My dad had an '85 vw golf when I was growing up, easily the most reliable vehicle he ever had. Then he bought a couple '95 jettas with the 2.0, one 5 speed the other auto. after two transmissions in the manual its sitting unrepaired and the automatic had some electrical issues but for the most part has been a pretty good car. Leaky sunroofs in both.

I always hear that chrysler vehicles suck but i have never had major issues with any that i have owned, i guess it depends on which engine and transmission you choose. I purposely chose a 4spd auto instead of the 6spd auto.

so far my caddy has been really good to me and with the anticipated timing chain failure/replacement, I will gladly let the dealer maintain it to keep my forever warranty.

At least on here, do we agree that Hondas and Toyotas are generally good cars? I had a great experience with the Subaru dealership, they looked at my car, gave me juice and cookies, a ride back to my Civic, and waived their inspection fee. However, their head gaskets are inexcusable.

Jooseppi Luna, that is an awesome flow chart! :D

Just to be clear....they were going to charge $257 just for the belt... How much more for the labor??????
And you paid $18 for the belt and clicked your little Dorothy slippers three times and the belt was on.....right????


Or just maybe.....the truth is their quote included a couple of hours of labor and it took you all day????

I'll never forget my friend's 1998 Golf VR6. Nice to sit in. Jack it up on one side and you couldn't open the doors.

Most accessory belts can be changed in 10 minutes. They are held on either by spring tension applied at one of the pulleys, which requires a pry bar (screwdriver) to move the pulley enough to remove/replace the belt. Other tension systems involve loosening 1 bolt to allow slack to be made on a pulley, and then removing/replacing the belt, and re-tightening the slack and bolt.

None of this is rocket surgery, unless perhaps it's a VW we're working on.

... and rear brake drums don't need cleaning. They get dirty and rust, and nobody cares.

I can perform most car service in less than the billable "book" hours that the shop charges, and I'm a novice with a very modest amount of tools. Imagine how quickly the "pros" with lifts and proper tools complete the 8 book hours of work they charged you.

The only 2 things I've allowed pros to work on so far have been tire replacement and oil changes. The lube shops are breaking even on the $20 oil change, fluid fill, tire check, and vacuum because I don't opt to replace my PCV valve, air filter, and wiper blades while I'm there.

No problems in 70,000 miles with my VW. Even the common stuff, DPF, HPFP, intercooler icing.

No problems with the two 2.5L Subarus I've had either. Even the early DOHC 2.5 has been rock solid.

For me, it would be tire changes ONLY. I don't trust the poorly tained "Lube Jabronies" to even look at my oil. I specifically instruct them not to touch anything other than the tires and rims, if it's an emergency and I need tire service.

I can't trust some random member of the "unwashed masses" to do things right. I put my oil drain plug on with a TORQUE WRENCH, NOT AN IMPACT WRENCH:mad: Those dudes just don't care - and tend to do things wrong more out of ignorance than indifference. Just imagine the possibilities:eek:

If it's something that I can plan (new tires), I'll bring the rims and tires ONLY and let the "Tire Jabronies" do their thing. That way nobody gets any stupid ideas...

Otherwise, I'm the mechanic. I trust me.

Thanks,
Victor

So after "weeks" of trying to fix it yourself, you begrudge a tech one hour to diagnose the issue and replace the bulb that was causing the problem? Particularly the implication that the tech "knew" the bulb was the cause of the problem therefore not deserving of any diagnostic time allowed.

As far as the battery issue. Did you replace the battery or just charge it?

I had a regular customer and his daughter's 280Z on the lift in my shop and the water pump seal gave out and it literally dumped a gallon of coolant right there. I caught most of it in my drain pan. The father and daughter, a very beautiful young lady, had restored the car for her to drive to college.

Expecting to be savaged for my "sabotage" of his young daughters prize, and the product of their labor, I was amazed to hear him say, I am sure glad that happened here instead of some dark rainy night on the side of I64 where she disappeared and I never saw her again.

Two sides to every story.

Pay my overhead and my employees a decent wage while expecting them to only charge you for a light bulb replacement? I'd bet it wasn't a short or it would blow a fuse, probably the wrong bulb installed by who? The wrong bulb was grounding throught the brake light circuit and killing the cruise control.

Did the tech you got to fix your CC install the wrong bulb?

My apologies to the author of this post who may think I have singled him-her out for criticism. I agree with those who fix their own, but they must realize they have no outside quality control other than themselves. A shop owner risks his lifes savings on every job that leaves his shop. I know there are bad ones and good ones and they are fairly easy to figure out with the internet.

regards
mech

I know Old Mechanic is a good one, for sure!
But we Ecomodders are a different breed altogether.

Honesty and a little integrity go a long way. All of Old Mechanic's diagnostic methods are very straight forward and no nonsense from what I've seen (thanks again for the spongy brake pedal solution on Skidmark). That's the kind of mechanic I'd go to.

The mechanic I "use" when I need him, is a close personal friend (YODA) and he works like Old Mechanic. He knows his stuff. Difference is, YODA works in my garage, with my tools most of the time, and usually after I've messed something up:eek:
Helluva guy :cool:

Mech, your stock is HIGH in my book!

Thanks,
Victor

There is good and bad _______________ (insert occupation) in every "profession". Doctors are drug addicts, alcoholics, wife beaters and murderers.

I come here to help those who endeavor to help themselves and to occasionally share my "dreams" with like thinkers. Nothing like doing it the 100th time :D:D. (any repair compared to the first time)

I like my dreams very much. Not a single person in a decade has shown me why they would not work and we're all really good at that, right?

regards
mech

They all suck. Every manufacture has a turd in some way. I know 4 people in the last 6 months whose Honda's have lost motors. I've heard "Its common for the VTEC solenoid to get clogged with metal" wait? whut? after the oil filter the motor is making metal and clogging the VTEC solenoid?

I know several people with Toyota problems. Piston rings non existent (perfect oil change record),low compression, low power, doesn't leak oil because it burns it as fast as you pour it in. Transmission issues, etc.

Same for every make of car, they have models better than others. Some have extra suckage though. Do your research on the quirks of the particular car before you buy.

I have 380K miles on my 98 TDi. I perform all the regular maintenance myself. I can screw my car up cheaper than paying someone to do it. Also, I just might have a better chance of doing it right. I haven't had to get any more special tools to do the jobs than any other car. I've had to get special tools for Honda. The clutch in the TDi lasted to 270K miles. Somewhere around 320K miles the alternator did die. $250 to $300+ for a rebuilt alternator. The bearings were good, it was just the regulator brushes wore out. I purchased the regulator (listed at various places for $40-$70) rebuilt the alternator myself with tools you can buy at Lowes or Home depot. No special rocket science tools needed there. After diesel switched to ultra low sulfur, I did get fuel pump leaks. local rebuild was $250 or for 4x that I could get a perfect rebuild with performance tweaks that would give me same MPG with a little more performance. My choice to spend the extra. Fuel savings over gas prices and MPG have payed for the cost of the car years ago.

I picked a manual window crank car so I wouldn't have to deal with window regulators. Which I had to replace in a friends Honda Civic- its a common known issue with Honda. Ask about window door lock regulators on Acura, they had a huge problem in the 90's. I fixed a friends early Mk4 VW door lock actuator by taking it apart and soldering the electrical contacts back together. Cost nothing but time on the weekend since I had the tools and soldering iron. Supposedly later models and the new actuators don't have the problem.

So, to sum up my rant here, every car has its problems. Do your research on that particular year model and buy accordingly.:thumbup:

What I noticed on the German cars, was when they started making the electrical components in Mexico, the frequency of repairs skyrocketed comapred to German made parts.

As to why I don't need to speculate and I did very little work on German cars, sold Benz parts in the early 80s, but never a line tech. We had one Benz tech that made $80k in1982, probably others with the 5th most productive MB factory service dept in the country.

I never sold Mexican made parts for MB. Last VW was air cooled, it had an intermittent no start condition that I could not figure out for 6 months, so I used a rope and a spool for a techumseh lawn mower engine. Later I learned the solution was to wire two starter solenoids in a series. That worked but I still got a kick out of rope starting that VW.

regards
mech

Rope start? Like an old boat or lawn mower? Cool.

Thanks,
Victor

It was a 58, 6 volt, not much compression, so I put the techumseh spool under the generator nut, the one that you fiddled with the washers to get the belt tension adjusted. Set the points by eye and timing by ear listening for the spark as you turned the crank with the dist cap off.

Ignition on
blip throttle at carb
Wrap the rope around clockwise from behind
foot on right rear bumper guard
pull baby!!!!!!!!!

Too cool. That beats a push start any day! Now you've got me wanting to try it on one of my cars. ..

It had a nasty habit of not working when I had to park in a mud puddle.

regards
mech

I'm with you on that. I only let the lube shops touch cars I don't care about. The Acura has only been serviced by me.

On the other hand, the 1998 Toyota Camry with 250,000 miles goes to Jiffy Lube for $20 oil changes. The car uses oil, so I'll get it topped off for free once or twice before going back in for another change. The convenience is worth it to me in this case.

There a lot of truth in this.

Hondas are generally reliable, so I didn't worry much about buying my '01 Civic. It turns out, the early 2000's were not good for Honda trannys (Civic, Odyssey, and Accord) and lots of other issues with the Civic specifically. It has certainly not been as reliable as I expected.

Toyota's have had their problems too. My boss just lost the engine in his Highlander due to oil sludge, Tacomas are known for the frame failing, etc.

That said, the rates of failure, and the types of failures are important to look at. VW has had a high rate of failures, and they are often failures that leave you stranded on the side of the road or have very large costs associated with them. Because of that, I tend to steer people away from VW in general.

While I've personally had trouble with Toyotas and my latest Honda, I still see them as generally reliable brands. I also like GM (particularly anything with Ecotec, Atlas, or LS engines). While they have failures, most are not drivetrain or suspension related and tend to be inexpensive to repair.

My girl has a 2009 Jetta a 2.5L 5 cylinder gas 6spd auto. Best 36.8 MPG. (when I drove it) Low 20MPG AVG 27MPG She's got the expensive extra warranty (rental car ect.) and all that jazz. Its got 70000K miles on it now. Zero problems. YEA 0

Going for 350K. It loves neutral coasting, short shifting and WOT in sport mode. :D

there are winners and losers in every brand...
 

My '04 jetta tdi has 195,000 miles on it. It has been very very good to me.

Oil changes every 10,000 miles.

tires and brakes, everybody has that.

Had to do cv joints at 135k, not unreasonable I thought...

It still has the box stock full original exhaust.

I replaced the glow plugs at maybe 150K, but easy do it yourself operation


I had a fault in the turn signal/cruise stalk two years ago. I did it myself, and again, not expensive.

I had my indy mechanic replace the cam belt and water pump not too far past 100K.



The thing never gets below 42 mpg, and usually 46-47. Tows a trailer easily.

I literally paid for the car with biodiesel...

I'm out of the biodiesel business now, but that car has been a champ for me.

troy

They wanted to charge $257 to change a serpentine belt and clean "dust" out of the rear drums. Just the serpentine belt install would have been ~$140. It took me literally 5 minutes to install the new one. Loosen two bolts, push the alternator back, put the new belt on, pry the alternator forward for tension, tighten two bolts.

...which is *why* a buddy of mine always parked his VW'bug with one rear wheel 'on top' of a cement curb block at work, making it easier to crawl under (when necessary) to work on if/when it wouldn't start.

^ I know what he had to do!!!

He had to crawl under there with a screwdriver or some such and short out between the starter and solenoid.

Been there; done that.

The problem was the long wire runs and/or ignition switch for the starter circuit. I put a heavy-duty push-button switch in the panel under the rear seat. No more crawling under the Bug! :thumbup: Good anti-theft measure too.