Fuel Mileage mods simplicity
 

Hello all,
Someone had mentioned that ecomodders are a skeptical bunch and any new and improved mind blowing mod is not the point of this website. Severely awesome "devices" for hypermiling I think are counterproductive. I sell an Amsoil product called "P.I." fuel system treatment. It claims up to 5.7% fuel savings and works for 4000 miles. Everyone I have talked to has said they have seen an improvement. The guy that got me into Amsoil says he gets 30 more miles per tank using the product. On a 2002 Honda Odyssey v6 I would say that's worth the $12.00 a bottle. But on the other hand I think several small modifications that may or may not equate to 2-5% mileage increase would be substantial if you did up to 10 or so small mods. I switched to a better gasoline and saw a noticeable improvement. I added some fuel additive in addition to that and saw a little more, got rid of all of the extra junk in the back of the car to reduce weight, and saw more improvement. I believe that one "huge" mind blowing fuel saving device that reminds me of an infomercial is just plain the wrong way to think. If I tell someone that I get 30 more miles per tank by doing nothing but driving a little slower, 65 vs. 75 I think that is substantial. Arent small mods like this, and doing several small mods like this going to matter more when your goal is to double your mileage? So right now ecomodder says my car is getting 44% above EPA mileage, And I havent really done anything yet, small mods seem to make more sense. Not everyone is able to afford electric conversions, and small habit changes show enough mpg improvement to mention, when hypermiling is inconvenient, thats when people scoff at new ideas. One of my customers has a Dodge van witha v-6 and i told him he could save $300 a year minimum by driving 55. He screamed at me totally refusing that idea. I said" I just handed you $300 and you throw it back at me" since he visits Oklahoma alot because thats where his family is, he refused to add an hour of driving to his trip because he did not want to be in the car any longer with his wife and kids than he absolutely had to. I was astounded, but looked at it like that mod would have inconvenienced him personally so it was not worth it.
We must concentrate on simple basic steps to achieve mind blowing MPG's. Maybe we can use this principle with the mods you have already done to possibly increase the mpg's only 1% with no effort..

Taken from War_Wagon's signature:

Paragraphs, please.

Yes, it's usually more productive to modify your car and drive conservatively than it is to pour mystery chemicals into your gas tank.

Not so much skeptical as data driven. We really like test results when the tests are done as described here: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html.

Usually the benefits of fuel additives disappear when tested correctly.

I'm not skeptical. I just don't believe that getting 30 more miles out of a 20 gallon tank is a relevant measurement. Deciding which gas station I'm going to fill up at gives me bigger variations in tank distance than that. If your vendor were seeing an improvement then it would show up in mpg no matter how long he ran his tank and his mileage would creep down until his next treatment- then bam! that one and a half mpg gain would reappear.

Sorry guys I guess I did not give enough information about the product. I am the type that tries every new fuel additive on the market based on the claims on the can. Since I am a mechanic and have been for 10+ years, I see what happens to today's fuels and what it does to engines when folks just go to the most convenient cheapest gas station. I have been on the phone with every supplier in my area, and not one gas station can tell me what the chemical difference between 87 octane fuel and 91 octane fuel is. I know the answer but the persons selling it do not, that makes me uneasy.
I came to this website a couple of days ago, and I see there is alot of resistance to new ideas. I am here to share my knowledge with everyone, show all of you what works and what does not. I did not expect terms like "30 more miles per tank is not significant" type responses. The product I was speaking of is $12 a bottle, works for 4000 miles, cleans intakes and fuel injectors. I have enough documentation to support the claim. I could not do the same thing this product does unless I take the engine apart and clean it manually.

The concept is that if your using cheap gas, the residue sticks to aluminum surfaces like glue. The last intake manifold gasket I did required the aluminum intake to be soaked in degreaser for 3 days! It was a 1/4 inch of crap stuck to it! Almost every car has that. The motor oil viscosity is relevant, tires, wind, etc.

I want to apologize now for me not explaining my stance enough, it would seem that my 10 GB of text on data about all fuel additives since the 1960's needs to be adressed. I will be more clear in further posts, I am used to being asked questions daily but people who do not understand half of what I am talking about, I am now amongst people of higher knowledge about fuel efficiency, and look forward to debates.

For the record for me to thoroughly explain my position, when challenged my responses are lengthy the reason being I feel I should thoroughly explain my position, I apologize if it is too long to read that's why it was posted in a new thread to get some ideas from other members.

In closing I wanted to explain one more thing. Why do we mod our cars for fuel economy? Is it a game? Are we tired of paying high gas prices? If gas was $1.00 a gallon would we still mod? I ask myself these questions, I want to get the highest gas mileage possible. My individual testing involves 3 cylinders, 4 cylinders, 6 cylinders, v8's, v10's and diesels. If my goal is to make improvements to any vehicle for fuel economy, reach the ultimate peak I can, i mean as much as Physics and engineering go, then I have to reverse engineer to make these mods work at higher speeds, and make wind, rain, and temperature irrelevant. I look at it like "world changing" rather than something I can do in my spare time. I have mechanical engineering knowledge, chemistry, organic chemistry, welding, fiberglass, bodywork, aerodynamic studies, and physics knowledge in my corner. I should have explained that. Sorry guys.

One final note, if a vehicle gets 300 miles on a tank of gas, 15 mpg, I introduce a product that works for 4000 miles, and I have a 20 gallon tank, thats 13.33 tanks of gas. The product claims up to 5.7% better fuel economy in that duration. But let's figure you get a 2% increase in that 4000 miles for spending $12.00 on said product. We multiply a 20 gallon tank by 13.33 tanks which equates to 266.6 gallons. At $3.00 per gallon that is $799.80. If I get 30 more miles per tank, 266.6*2%=5.332 gallons saved. 5.332*3.00 per gallon is 15.996, justifies the purchase. It may seem insignificant but over the course of 4000 miles 30 more miles per tank on a v6 is substantial. I estimated at 2% because that counters wind, traffic, etc. 30 more miles per tank consistently, is 399 more miles out of the car in 4000 miles. I think it matters, of course in conjunction with other mods like driving slower this number would increase. I think it warrants mention. Thanks for listening.

I use Lucas oil fuel system treatment every tank. The car has over 200k miles and a bit of an issue with fuel pressure and a leaky injector sometimes.

If you have never cleaned your intake or combustion chamber before, there is a noticeable difference between clean and dirty.

Keeping the innards clean is good- I throw a bottle of fuel system whatnot in a few times a year. I don't think of it as gaining a percentage of efficiency, though. Cleaning the fuel system recovers performance that the car had when it was built but has lost over time by not being kept clean. I expect I'd see an improvement if I used a cleaner without ever having done it before, but I'd still have to call that moving back to stock performance.

I'll stand by my position that 30 more miles a tankful is irrelevant, though. Tank distance is based on things unrelated to the car's actual performance. Personally, I don't notice even a 1 mpg jump when I add a bottle because I've been doing it and for mileage purposes I count the 4 ounces as an additional 0.031 gallons of gas. I don't factor in the price difference in my log, though. I'm buying it for cleaning, not propulsion.

I added a bottle of Chevron "Techron Concentrate Fuel System Cleaner" to my Mustang's tank a few fuel-ups ago. (and counted it as fuel) No noticeable difference in MPG, but at over $85 per gallon:eek: ($7.99/12 oz. bottle), I won't make a habit of using it when nothing's wrong.:p

That sounds like EGR soot.
How do you expect the fuel injectior cleaner to clean the upper intake when the fuel and fuel injectors are in the bottem of the intake next to the cylinder head. I have seen gas engines with everything south of the fuel injector almost perfectly clean, anything the gas touches gets very clean, so on almost every fuel injected engine the cylinder head intake port is nice and clean and on older TBI engines the entire intake track is clean.
My camaros carbureted intake is also very clean.
I don't see how any cleaner would work in a diesel since the fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber and instantly incinerated.

The best engine cleaner I have ever found at least for a diesel is to run water injection.

Supposedly Marvel Mystery Oil is a good fuel system cleaner, and it's pretty cheap at 5 dollars for 32 ounces.

Should we have an official "A-B-A" test on this crap to see if this guy's telling the truth? I'm retired, with a lot of time on my hands, and haven't run any kind of "fuel treatment" through my car in at least a couple of years. We've got hundreds of miles of freeway here in Nevada, so I could whip out a 4000 mile test without much trouble.

It would be fairly easy to pick a certain gas station & pump (which I do anyway), and do about a 400 mile +/- round trip out I-80 east & back, one per day. I could change the oil (it needs it), and do 2 or 3 of these "trips" as tha "A" base. Then put the crap in and do 10 more until the 4000 miles is up & see if there's any change. Maybe change the oil again & do another "baseline" & if it looks like there's anything there, put another bottle of the crap in & see what happens.

Say the word & I'll do it. Like I say, I love doing this sh**t.
Bill

Please do! I've never kept close enough track of where I fill up to really quantify any differences, but I've never noticed any significant difference in what kind of fuel I put in, or what additives.

I tried a cap-full of acetone for a few tanks and saw approximately no change, have put in a few of those gas-station fuel system cleaners now and then, and Seafoam'd it once as well.

My car runs as well on Shell 93 as it does on Pa's Discount 87 octane, gets 29mpg if I drive like an a**hole and 32mpg if driven like a granny.

OK, just wrote down the name of the stuff: "Amsoil P.I. fuel system treatment". Now to find some. Seems like Amsoil isn't too rare, is it? Dunno about Wal-Mart, but can I find it at places like Autozone/O'Reilly/CarQuest?

Sea Foam is what I used a couple years ago the last (and only) time I did it before.

Oh, and as far as the "good fuel" vs. "cheap fuel" claims? I bought an '85 Jimmy (2.8 liter V-6, 5-speed manual, 4 wheel drive) new from the dealer (actually ordered it through the dealer & waited), and then proceeded to put ONLY the cheapest fuel in it I could find - ALWAYS. Drove it almosr every day from 1985 to around 2002 or 2003 (when I replaced it with my 2000 Jimmy & gave it to my parents), and never had any major engine work at all. 3 new fuel pumps, 2 new ignition "modules", a couple "tune-ups" (plugs, wires, etc), radiator hoses, fan belts, batteries, etc. I gave it to my parents when I stopped driving it, and IT STILL RUNS FINE. The odometer broke at about 3 years old and 65,969.5 miles (that number's etched into my memory, because even after numerous attempts to fix it at both two different dealers & a speedo shop in Reno, it never moved again), so I don't know how many actual miles it has on it, but it's gotta be over 200,000. A friend once said you can tell by how many sets of tires you put on it if you get like 35,000 to 40,000 miles per set. I think it's had 5 or 6 sets. Oh, although the main odometer stopped working, the TRIP odometer and speedo kept going, so that's how I was able to continue checking my mileage.

And during the time I owned it, it always turned in a solid 25 MPG on the highway with some city mixed-in. So it will take a lot to convince me that "cheap gas" will "ruin" my engine & gas mileage. (like some of my know-it-all "friends" used to try to "warn" me).

wmjinman,
THere are some GREAT roads out there. I was in Sacto for 15 yrs and would drive up to modoc county (Cedarville CA) about 2 times a yr. also went ot Salt Lake city a couple of times..
YOu will certainly have consistant outside temps over any couple of weeks. My concern would be winds. But since your retired, you can pick your days.
If it was me.....I'd run 50 miles up and back 4 or 5 times. my thinking being to even out any anomolies like elavations etc.

maybe metro will chime in hear.

Good thoughts, mcrews.

You are right about the winds, when they blow, they're usually out of the west or SW, so if I go out I-80, it would be returning against a headwind - IF the wind comes up. That's what would blow the test ..... some days I could go out & come back with no wind. Other days I might go out & then the wind comes up sometime before I get back. Of course, if it's blowing steady the whole time, the out & back would cancel each other out. But then, we seldom get "steady" winds - they're usually in the form of gusts.

The other thing I was thinking, AFTER shooting off my big mouth, was that I'd probably want to do it at 40, my best MPG speed, but that would be a 10 hour day for one "out & back". Hmmmm..... can we say "tedious"? LOL ! Of course, 40 would also probably get the attention of the Highway Patrol before long on a freeway with 75 MPH speed limits. I could head out US 50, but since it isn't 4-lane, would probably end up bothering MORE people. Guess I could "bite the bullet" and do it at - say - 55 on the freeway. So much for setting any new MPG records in the process, though. hmmmm....

And once I start, I've gotta do the whole thing the same, too. hmmmm.....

That's $20/gallon - over 5 times what I'm paying for gasoline. I'll pass; unless I REALLY need to clean my fuel system.

Well, I just read through this again, and I now think to make the test as fair as possible, I'll "SeaFoam" my engine shortly before I start the test. Otherwise, this miracle product may enjoy an unfair advantage from cleaning a somewhat dirty engine. Mr. Salesman shouldn't mind, because he said there was no way of cleaning it that good short of taking it completely apart. Therefore the SeaFoam treatment would undoubtedly be insignificant.

Stopped by a couple places in town, and it's starting to appear you can't buy this AmsOil stuff off the shelf. Makes sense - make it available only through a salesman so he can give you the "line" and maybe convince you to buy some more of his stuff while he's at it. I'll keep looking for a source and in the meantime, do the SeaFoam treatment & oil change to get the engine up to "reasonable cleanliness standards" before testing the "miracle chemical". :thumbup:

Oh, I know - I'll do an "A-B-A" test before & after the SeaFoam too & see if THAT makes any difference. OK, getting excited now!!!

Amy threads up here on water injection? My little Ranger gets a bit more power on rainy days and fog smooths it right out,

explanation of fuel additives
 

It would seem that i need to explain what fuel additives do. There is no "magic chemical". Fuel additives are not designed to improve fuel quality. They are designed to remove the residue left from ethanol based fuels, and lower grades of fuels. If you vehicle has been driven for 10,000 miles and you do not understand the design of the vehicle that you are driving, you just get in and go, and unless it stops running well you basically do nothing. You change your oil with whatever at Wal mart or what "daddy" always used, not knowing what an engine looks like after 100,000 miles with conventional oil inside? Times have definitely changed, oil has changed. If you drive a car that dates before 1995 today's oil will not work because it does not have Zinc Phosphate. This chemical was known to destroy catalytic converters. The problem with additives the ones that works that if they remove the debris leftover in the combustion chamber, it collects in the catalytic converter and causes it to overheat and melts it shut. I have changed out 100's due to poor knowledge. To design a hydrocarbon based fuel additive is complicated, and if you have to buy one every tank of gas, you are not saving money. My claim of the Amsoil product comes with 10 pages and pictures of the explanation of data to go with it, when i said "the only way I could do what this does is take the engine apart" is because the test data and pictures are fact, this is how i worded it because this company allows me to do that. Yes I am a salesman but I am also a mechanic that does in my business what I can to share information with all of my customers. I don't have a boat, I don't own my house, and I have no "toys". I do what I can to save my customers money. if this product does what it claims, then I must be able to back that claim up.

Fuel additives like "sea-foam" do not publish their ingredients. I will shop around to see if I can find an MSDS on that product. I do know that if you put that "junk" in your vehicle and it is not a 1978 Chevy, well I personally have dumped over 50 gas tanks with that stuff in it because it broke loose so much crap it filled the exhaust with an oil that saturated the catalytic converter so bad all it did was smoke. It is too much for today's vehicles. It has the consistency of diesel.

Amsoil is not on the shelves to control costs. Wanna know how things get on the shelf at Walmart?
1) Ingredient supplier
2) Manufacturer
3) Wholesaler
4) Distributor
5) Vendor
6) Retail

These are not in order but you get the point. There are so many middle men in retail the costs cannot be controlled, just like the gasoline and oil you are buying, too many hands in the pot.
Amsoil you can either buy online, a retail outlet, or a dealer, or you can become a preferred member and but it at dealer cost. Not to mention this company has the ONLY oil that has a 25,000 mile oil change interval. No other oil can do that, would that save you money on oil changes? It also cleans the sludge out of the block, what conventional has left behind.

Sorry guys I am ranting, if anyone would like product information I can provide it. But before you "hate" on salesman, just know that I have documented proof, or you can go online and check out the product for yourselves, there is no "selling".
As long as am a member of this site i will provide any and all information about vehicles that you would like, if you don't that's fine too. I have plenty of information I can share, this is supposed to be fun and we are supposed to help each other. Some members are not clear on that.

Hey wmjinman, I need to know what kind of vehicle you have, how many miles per month you track, a list of all of your mods, area, and average nominal atmospheric temperature of your location, products you have used, type of oil you have used, engine size, tire size, and where you get your information. I may possibly have a great deal of information for you to use, hell maybe I could increase your mpg's by 25% just by offering simple suggestions that you may not have thought of,interested? Keep in mind that I do this for a living and have access to all publications, TSB's on every vehicle, and my customer base is 30,000 people deep because of my knowledge base. I would love the opportunity to explain all aspects of automotive engineering, industrial engineering, industrial electricity and electronics, and simply "what works and what doesn't". Every product on the market has been tested in my shop. I also homebrew fuel additives that are substantially less expensive to make if you are also interested.

What do you want to know besides the fact that it only seems to hurt fuel economy on gas engines?

The anti-ware addtive in oil is not zinc phospate, its zinc based.
The chemical you speek of is Zinc dithiophosphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Oil mixers didn't stop using it, they just cut out half to 2/3 of the ZDDP found in older oils when compairing SH to modern SM rated oils. You can still get oil with high 1980s levels of ZDDP you have to look for SH or SJ rated oils, such as royal purple (SJ) or mobil1 MX4T 10w-40 or V-Twin 15w-50 (SC rated).
Or buy ZDDP by the quart, $60 for a quart of oil addtive that contains very high levels of ZDDP, up to 50% if I remember right.

1. leave out the sublte references to 'members' who might disagree
2. learn to write in paragraph form. (you lose credibility when you don't)

I think those 2 points would help your credibility a lot. I'm interested in hearing your claims and perhaps trying the stuff you recommend, but your (lack of) ability to communicate effectively makes it difficult to take you seriously, and sometimes even makes it difficult to understand what you're trying to to say.

No offense intended.

That's right, ZDDP got cut somewhat because the phosphorous poisons catalytic converters.

I think it's best not to go backwards for the oils though, SN oils have higher standards for other characteristics, if you're really worried about wear you can buy various antiwear additives separately and add them, although it's tricky business since adding too much can negatively impact the effectiveness of detergents and corrosion inhibitors and whatever.

As I follow this, I would like any info you have on either of my two vehicles, the Escape or RS.

Then how come your car doesn't get any better gas mileage than it does? :confused:


Edit: "Only until recently I noticed driving under 75 mph had a considerable increase in mileage."

Comments like above, from your "beaker" fuel log notes don't exactly instill a lot of confidence in your - uh - "expertise", either. I think I've known you can drastically increase gas mileage by driving under 75 since - uh - maybe the national 55 mph speed limit in the '70s!!!

"better mileage means you have to be a jerk"
 

Hey I dont see why i am getting so much flack from you. You piss on everything I say, how about this, I will make suggestions that contribute to the benefit of everyone here, could you do that? Negating every idea i say clearly defines the fact that i need to "dumb up' some of this technical advice I give. When we explain things to each other you demonstrate how "you have heard it all". My education dictates the ability to "trump" most individuals that I encounter. my reason for this is to gain personal knowledge for myself. I do not do that to hurt anyone, but merely to help. Forget about the Amsoil claims, if all you wanted me to do was to retract any statement I made, then fine. You can just stay in your world believing what you want to believe, fine with me, go drink some more beer, and keep the redneck mentality. The other members and I will try to contribiute something to benefit each other instead of bashing everything. i have no patience in listening to some blow hard that has no scientific background other than how much he saves going to Wal mart. i never should have started battling you i am CLEARLY out of my league and have to take 20 years off of my life to compare to your intelligence. So be a jerk all you you want, crap on everything I say and go play the lottery. I will go get struck by lightning because the odds are 1000 times better. Good luck with your evolution.:thumbup:

By the way there is no "boy" here I am almost 50 years old, and have been doing independant research for over 20 years on things other than automotive products. if there is a way to save money, I will find it. I am cheap. But if a product claims to do something amazing I will test it over and over. its that simple. Unwarranted and it doesnt work are apples to oranges. This product will clean fuel injectors without harming the catalytic converter. it is a solvent. I have the documented proof, but i am testing it. I guess I should do that before I share that info. If someone said urine in your gas would help mileage i would try it for laughs.

I agree
 

I agree with you, my machine shop says to use an HD oil, or Rotella. It still has the good stuff in it to help.

in response
 

Check the web, and Youtube. Alot Of these products my customers agreed to try. Especially the 25,000 mile oil change. Because at 40-45 bucks an oil change, a $100 dollar oil change is attractive in comparison because it equates to 8.3 regular oil changes if you drain at 3000 miles. But I am not making anymore claims, everyone can try it or not, the resistance of everyone in this forum is giving me a headache, especially people who are closed minded. I think i am just going to hypermile on my own. The incredible amount of information on this forum comes at a price...

I'm 62 and I sold my shop at 50 to take advantage of the tax free gain on the sale of your personal home. I built two and so far it works out to a gain of over $300k, $165k when we sold the first house, without any tax liability, and another $135k if we sell the second house, which was built with the gain from the first.

Your initial post was very strong and that tends to make people react negatively. I did the same thing when I first came here. I believe my Patented design is a key component in future vehicles because it allows incorporation of hypermiling techniques into the design of the vehicle itself. I let the negative attitudes of members on other forums drive me away, so I spend my time here. I try to help people with problems with my experience, some 60,000 hours of hands on problem solving as well as interactions with people who trusted my judgement and character.

You should stick around, as I did, and try to add to the knowledge base of this forum. You might even learn a few things, as I have, and when you do, push the thanks button and let people know their efforts were worthwhile.

If you decide to no longer participate, I can understand that, having done so myself on other forums. Great knowledge is worthless without the ability to pass that knowledge adn experience to others. I learned my trade by focusing on what worked first, then refining my knowledge with experience and an excellent memory, that is fading with advanced age. Even with all of the issues age brings on, I still get a thrill out of helping another member without requiring them to take the same arduous path I took to get the same level of knowledge.

regards
Mech

Huh?
 

I dont agree. The problem is with all of the marketing tests the are tested in optimum conditions. I have done some testing, and I continue to do so in every tank. I have read that thread, the data is incomplete. Is this why I get so much friction on this forum? I even moved to the unicorn stable because if you mention fuel additives here you get stoned to death. But I will do some more reading, thanks for reading.:thumbup:

My diesel gets a quart of mobil1 bike oil and filled the rest of the way with 5w-40 rotella.
The cars get synthetic mobil1 10w-30 that I bought on sale for $2.50 a quart.
I was putting 5w-40 rotella in them and will go back to it once the mobil 1 runs out.

Well, I got to feeling bad about some of the stuff I said, so went back and re-read most of what you said and what I said. Yeah, OK, maybe I'm a jerk. So, I apologize for that. I'm impressed by the way Old Mechanic can get his points across respectfully, clearly, and concisely. So I'm going to attempt to be more like that.

First, let me address the "busy boy" comment... The word "boy" was NOT mean disrespectfully - just a figure of speech. - probably should have just said "busy". It was not suggesting age, since I obviously didn't know your age. "Almost 50" is good though - in 5 years, you'll be almost as old as I am now.

Uh - and good luck with your lightening strike, I guess....

Amsoil is the Amway of motor oils.
Available only through Amsoil dealers who profit handsomely on every sale.

thank you
 

Thank you for your post, I totally respect what you said, and i will give it a try. I re read the testing things correctly data suggestions, and it clearly said I would expect resistance on things, I guess I did not read that and memorize it like i should have. I wish other members would have come at me the way you did. the other independent research i have done gets the same resistance. But this is why I am leaving and I will not share any more information. My shop's motto is knowledge based, you come to me because the other shops you have been to do not possess the amount of research time I do. It has been stated by nearly all of my customers. All I have to do is what no one else does, fair honest, affordable, and 100% truth. But if convincing folks about fact gets complete resistance, they get shown the door. I do not have the patience or time to fight over it.

Again much praise for you taking the time to help my direction, thanks.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbu p:

ok
 

Amway and Amsoil are not the same in any way, it is a better oil, just research it and see the capabilities. All salesman make a profit, but if it saves money, reduces failures, and extends the life of the parts it is installed in doesnt that justify cost? It is designed to reduce friction thus nearly eliminating wear. AS much as repairs cost doesnt the end justify the means? But believe what you want. :thumbup:

bottom line....
you lied.
period.

you said you werent a salesman.
you are.
The biggest problem here is you lie to yourself. Which explains why your wrting is so....difficult to read.
Liars are continually having to justify themselves because of the low self esteme that the lies create.
four pages of posts and what got achomplished here?????
a blowhard trying to be king of the hill in 5 posts!

Everyone here tried to reach out and guide you.....but you dont get it.

This is by far and away the fairest, nicest and most generous forum I have ever been on. And there are only a couple of 'unspoken rules'
1. be honest
2. aba test

pretty simple really.

I can tell you this, there are quite a few people on here who are smarter than you and me put together. I am amazed at times at the wealth of knowledge that they give of so freely. I am amazed at what I learn here on a weekly basis.

You ought to look thru the threads and breath in what is going on here. We always have room for more smart posters.

Yes, Amway (the company) and Amsoil (the company) are EXACTLY the same.
The are a direct marketing/ mulit-level distribution model. Not saying that in a negative way. Just stating a fact.
Here again is another one of your 'wow, does he lack credibility' moments.
Amyway also has very good products that are researched and do work.
So please, tell me how they 'are not the same in any way'???????