(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?
 

I'm just trying to understand the Prius. I'm sorry if the title is a little sharp, but I'm not sure what the aim of the car is.


A few petrol cars here in europe can produce the economy figures the prius does.

At somepoint you have to run the engine to charge the cells, the sitting in traffic = zero emissions, doesn't really wash with me, if you're sat still - switch off your engine.

Highway economy seems poor when you compare it other cars especially TDi's

Manufacturing requires a huge amount of time and effort to shift the ingredientsfor the batteries around the world to build the cars in Japan just to ship back out around the world. thus completely obliterating and CO2 saving the car will have in service.

Aero? really?
Practicality? - the trunk is pretty tiny. and I drive a small hatch!

I want to understand the draw, but I just don't get it, can one of the many Prius owners on here explain to me why they plumped for it?

Priuses (Prii?) are great if you do lots of city driving, because having to stop and start is a fact of life. They are also a good size, while similar to a Corolla for actual dimensions, the interior is way more roomy.
I'd love to see a diesel version, because current gas engines just can't compete with TDIs. But as Toyota's main market is the US, a gas engine is really the only option if they want to be able to sell to normal people, who are yet to notice that diesels aren't horrible smoky machines anymore.

I'm also very interested in seeing some real research into how far a Prius has to drive before it cancels out the effects of making the batteries. I saw the thing a few years ago about a Prius being worse than a Hummer, but it had so many flaws it was just stupid.

IMO, hybrids are really only a good answer to people that do lots of city driving (like taxis and delivery people). For most other people, a good TDI would be better, ideally with an aerodymically designed body like the Prius (a 1.6L TDI from the Skoda Octavia in a Prius shell would be awesome).

What I've learned over the last few years, reading what hypermiling hybrid owners say,
you can get much better than the rated MPG, with the Prius, Fusion & Escape hybrids.

For many people, the 'point' of owning one of these hybrids, isn't to 'break even'
(compared to a gas car) or make it pay for itself someday.

The reason most people buy these hybrid models, is they want to.
They aren't forced to buy, because of high gas prices etc.
Like any other car, people 'like' it, so they buy it..

I like high-tech toys. If I could justify owning a Fusion, I would buy one.
They just seem like the coolest hybrid out there now..
But, since I don't drive very many miles, (and haul lumber on my roof racks)
I don't really feel the need for a fancy car that I will hardly use..

Because the price wasn't too high, I did buy 500w of solar panels this summer.
When people ask me, "When will they pay for themselfs?",
I just say, 'When they find a sucker, that will buy them for the price I paid'... :rolleyes:

Toyota did evaluate the impact of the additional environmental impact of the manufacturing process of the Prius vs a conventional vehicle. In fact, they put out some good videos when the 3rd gen came out. You might try scouring youtube for them. The study showed that BY FAR the most emissions from the vehicle's lifecycle comes from its actual use, not the manufacturing of it. Aha, I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnNEVdtzi4

I disagree that hybrids are only good for city driving. Yes, they are very good at city driving, but I still beat almost every TDI out there with my cruise set to 55-60 mph. Even the best Jetta/Golf TDIs here never beat the Prius on the EPA highway test cycle (03 TDI = 44 mpg, 04 Prius = 45 mpg). The electric motors enable you to downsize the engine, and this is what helps the highway cruising. TDI's suffer the same oversized engine syndrome as normal gassers do. As far as the start/stop capability, yeah you can turn your engine off yourself, but do normal people do this? The Prius automates many such things like engine off so that normal drivers can mindlessly use hypermiling like techniques without even thinking. Sadly, thats what needs to be done since they obviously aren't willing to drive reasonably in the first place.

I guess I'd also disagree that the trunk is tiny. I've fit quite a bit of stuff in my Prius. It is smaller than a normal hatch, but if you want an aerodynamic vehicle thats what you get.

For a family car, it doesn't get any better over here in the US. I don't think that it gets that much better over in Europe either, but I don't know all you guys have to choose from. If I were going with the highest mileage car I could get, I'd go with a smaller TDI if I could (and I can't since there aren't any here), or 1st gen Honda Insight. However, if Toyota released the FT-CH I'd probably take that over a small TDI.

I think its mainly the price of them over here (equiv to $30,000) but I don't think they could make sense over a decent diesel over here for anyone who drives for a living, as you said delivery driver, taxi etc (due to fuel price) I mean there is about a 2.4% difference in price per litre of diesel and petrol over here

Got a feeling its a bit of an 'IPOD' car. Great features, other companies do it as good if not better (cough honda), but every one knows the name..... thanks to Miss Diaz and pals.

Unfortunately, Honda does not do it better. Look at their abysmal 2nd gen Insight. Less room and less mileage (40/43/41) than the Prius (51/48/50). Probably why they haven't sold even 1/10th the number that Prius has this year. "Prius Killer," Ha!

I have to agree.

If the Insight was a desirable car, I would be seeing some of them on the road.
We have a Honda dealer right up the road. There are a bunch of dealers
in this part of Mass. But I don't see any Insights.. Mostly CRVs.

Actually, I see about as many Prius, as CRVs.. This is a snowy place
in the winter, but the Prius is a Very popular car here.

Just a guess, but the Insight is going to be upgraded a bunch or dumped in the coming years..

I hope they do upgrade it. We need more competition. Honda makes great cars (I used to own an Accord), but their hybrid offerings have not met the grade lately. Hopefully several companies will step up to the plate and challenge Toyota's dominance in this area.

The main problem for other manufacturers is that HSD is very simple part wise (and thus cost wise), and of course its patented. So, other companies have to use different designs that to this point are either not as effective (Honda's IMA), or more more complex (GM 2-mode) and more expensive. Ford has been able to use HSD since they worked with Toyota developing it (or something like that).

OK, here are my reasons:

What I really like about the new Prius (3rd generation) is the improved styling (definitely more mainstream than the 2nd generation), the improved safety, the great gas milage (at least double what I got with the Volvo S80 I used to own, and the potential for a whole lot more), the fact that it's a hatchback (allows hauling larger items than the sedan style), the fact that it has cloth seats (on the one I bought) versus leather (leather makes me sweat), and all the high-tech stuff that comes on it (touch tracer display, keyless entry system, Hybrid System Indicator, Bluetooth, XM). In addition, the Prius has very few maintenance items and few things to break: no camshaft timing belt or tensioner (uses a chain); no hydraulic power steering pump or rack (it's electric); no accessory belt or tensioner (all accessories are driven electrically); no starter motor (uses one of the motor/generators to start the engine); no automatic transmission to malfunction and/or require a rebuild/replacement; the regenerative braking reduces the wear on the brake pads and disks (some people have over 100,000 miles on them in their Gen II cars); and the oil change interval was just changed to 10,000 miles. There's just not much maintenance to do on a Prius.

So far the Prius drives great. It provides a ton of feedback through the Hybrid System Indicator to make you a more efficient driver. No problems with the brakes, either. I think the interior noise is about comparable between the Prius and the Volvo. I thought the Volvo sound system was great, but I have to say that the JBL 8-speaker audio in the Prius is better (it also has Bluetooth and XM built in).

I don't know about the UK, but where I live diesel costs more than gasoline, which reduces the appeal of diesel cars. Also, few gas stations (I would guess about 1 out of 10) carry diesel, which may be an inconvenience.

IIRC, the carbon footprint of diesel cars is higher than the Prius, also. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, I'll widen it a bit, I stil don't understand the advantages of Hybrids unless your have a local policy like london's congestion charge that benefits a car that can do a handfull of miles @zero emissions, even though it arguably compromises the car else where.....

are they purely the F-80 shooting star of cars? by that I mean proof that electric stuff can work in the day to day world before more manufacturers go full ZE??

p.s. not sure about the carbon foot print of diesels v's hybrids - especiall if we include the latest hypermilling diesel from OEMs getting down below 89carbons
Quite a few have start/stop systems like BMW Efficient dynamics, Audi's smartdrive systems etc, most renaults and fords have keyless tech

I suppose I need to drive one and truly experience them first hand.

I think the main attraction to hybrids here in the states is the fact that we do not have access to these ultra-efficient diesel cars that are available in Europe (70+ mpg).

"Clean (low sulfur) diesel" fuel has not been available in the US for very long and it will probably take time for Americans to adopt the idea.

Here's what drew us to our Prius:

• We wanted good gas milage, so we were limited... either a super tiny car with a small engine and a manual transmission (like my Swift) or a TDI or a Hybrid... Since my wife WILL NOT drive a manual transmission (this is primarily her car), and we have a child and are planning on more, we opted for a larger car than what I currently drive.
• We looked at some TDIs, but people wanted $15,000 for one with 100,000 miles on them... or $7,000 for ones with 200,000 miles... just not cost effective (at least in our area), plus, diesel has been more expensive for a long time, and it's more expensive to get them worked on... oh, and for the best FE, you have to have a manual transmission...
• We looked at the new Insight, but, since they are new, you would have to pay new prices for them...
• The Prius gets outstanding fuel economy, particularly in the city (where we do most of our driving).
• I was really surprised at how roomy it is! Really, you can fit 5 adults in it without a problem! It is also big enough to fit everything we need to take on a trip (car seat, dog, baggage, snacks, etc.). Coming from my wife and I having two sedans, the hatch is awesome! Much easier to get things in and out, especially large objects like ladders or over-sized boxes.
• We have had it for about a year, and averaged almost 50mpg with it. To put this in perspective, we have a friend with a manual transmission TDI, he gets better highway FE, but his average FE is low 40's.
• It also has lots of cool features that I hadn't seen before, like the ability to open your door, and start the car without taking the keys out of your pocket, or the ability to creep along in traffic without having the engine running.
• We were also able to get ours for a really good price from a guy that was buying a TDI and going to make his own bio-diesel.

For us, it just made sense. Maybe someday if our family outgrows it, we will go to a minivan as the primary vehicle, and I will get the Prius :)

thanks - i think i understand now :)

There has been a lot written on this, which you can find with a bit of searching. But the simple explanation is mostly to do with engine size. It takes a lot more power to accelerate a car to cruising speed than in does to cruise at a steady speed. With a conventional car, you have to size the engine to produce the power needed to accelerate, which means that when cruising - most of the time, for most people - you're carrying around a lot of extra engine that's running at much less than its best efficiency. (See various threads of BSFC.) With a hybrid, you can have a smaller engine running more efficiently, because you have the electric to accelerate.

There are also a couple of myths in previous posts. First, that hybrids are only good for city driving. Now this may be true of the Prius, but it's emphatically not of the 1st gen Insight. With mine, I might get 50-60 mpg or less in city driving (I don't do enough to have good numbers, though), but on an open, level highway I can frequently be cruising above 80 mpg.

Second, it's not true that the engine must recharge the batteries. If you drive properly (and it helps to have a MIMA system or similar) most of the charging will come from braking, recovering energy that'd otherwise be wasted.

It might help to introduce you to the EPA web site that folks can save their mileage numbers:
Fuel Economy

There is a "Compare Side-by-Side" that allows selecting four cars in different years to see what USA drivers are getting:

• 49.1 MPG (US gallons) - 97 vehicles, 2010 Prius, Midsize car, 35-60 range
• 49.8 MPG - 14 vehicles, Honda Insight 2010, Compact Car, 43-60 range
• 44.7 MPG - 10 vehicles, VW Jetta TDI 2010 (manual), Compact Car, 36-52 range
• 44.6 MPG - 5 vehicles, VW Golf TDI 2010 (manual), Compact Car, 41-47 range

These are not lab tests but what owners of these cars are getting. In fact you can get their individual averages and look at the distribution to understand where the performance falls off.

We find that other web sites that track mileage seem to report similar results:
Fuelly | Share and Compare Your MPG

Notice that the Prius, unlike the other three cars, is considered a midsize vehicle. This means we have a tremendous amount of space for people or fold down the rear seats, our "stuff." Only the Jetta SportWagen comes close in volume but at 39.9 MPG, 33-52 range, it has significantly worse fuel economy.

Now there is a critical speed that separates 'hybrid mode' from 'engine on always' mode and in the 2010 this is ~46 mph (~73 km/h). Below this speed, the car automatically cycles between engine running and electric power depending upon the demand and amount of energy in the battery. What this does is instead of running at a very inefficient, low power mode, the engine runs at a little higher, more fuel efficient per kilowatt hour. The excess energy is stored in the traction battery so when it has enough, it stops the engine and uses the stored excess energy. It turns out the energy saved by running the engine at a higher power setting more than makes up for any conversion losses.

BTW, I quite agree with the auto-stop engine nonsense as being just that, nonsense. General Motors just killed their 'auto-stop' hybrids that they called "mild hybrid." They failed to save hardly any fuel and were dreadfully expensive. Fortunately, the Toyota, Ford and Honda hybrids don't do just 'auto-stop' nonsense.

I do hope you get a chance to test drive a Prius. We had rented one in 2001 for a couple of days but at the time, I couldn't justify it. Then in 2005, I bought a used, 2003 Prius when our Camry was lost in a rain-slick, street accident. I've never looked back . . . except for the first tank.

The older, NHW11 model Prius, 2001-03, has a 'knee in the curve' at 70 mph (112 km/h) that I didn't know about. So I drove that first tank at 75+ mph (+120 km/h) and got 39 MPG. Slowing down to just 70 mph increased the mileage to 49 MPG and 65 mph (104 km/h) brings it to 52 MPG.

The newer, ZVW30, has lower aerodynamic and rolling drag with a larger 1.8L versus 1.5L engine. I have to exceed 80 mph (128 km/h) to get in the 39 MPG range.

Bob Wilson

p.s. One caution, reports that Prius owners buy them for the image of being 'Greener than Thou' that is pure utter nonsense from Jeremy Clarkson . . . although there is the new Prius buyer ceremony:
http://news.cultural-china.com/china...springsac1.jpg
They serve cake.

I have found the knee in the NHW20 Prius' curve to be around 65mph... that's where the FE start to really drop off, so when I am driving, I set the cruise at 64, when my wife is driving, she sets it at 69, I get 50 mpg, she gets 45 mpg. Going 55 only returns marginally better FE numbers under normal driving conditions.

Oh Lord help us. :rolleyes:

TDi
 

Two items I want to comment on.

TDi over Hybrid
In test driving 2nd Gen Prius vs 2009 Jetta TDi Wagon (kids, stuff to move, etc), we decided on the TDi. My wife (primary driver) and I both liked the way it performed. One big selling point for us was the automatic shifting manual transmission with dual clutch. The smoothest shifting 'auto' I have driven. Would we have selected differently if the 3rd Gen Prius was out? Not sure, have not driven one yet.

Something I have noticed in wishing we could get more TDi options here in the US vs Europe. In the US, there is almost no competition for the car*. In Europe, it appears from afar to have a great system of buses and trains that seem to make it quite easy to not own a car.

I think if there were more public transportation and it was wider spread, then car manufacturers would have to do better, offer more options to compete with the public transportation system.

Here in the US*, you pretty much have to have a car and for most families, more than one. And if that is not the actual truth, it is the assumed truth and it will take time and changes to make that so. I think telecommuting helps, but so would trains and buses.

Just my wacky opinion.

(* There are a few cities with great public transportation that I have experienced first hand, like DC, but that is the exception, not the rule.)

The problem with that of course being that to use the public transportation, you have to live in a city :-(

Best MPG Available, Simple As That
 

I was driving a V10 truck when the oil started gushing into the Gulf of Mexico. I was driving that truck for a variety of reasons, but when the oil starting flowing, I knew I could no longer put off making the big changes in my life that would support my aversion to oil.

I bought and drive a Prius for one primary reason: it is the most fuel efficient car I could find. Period. I live in Florida, and it works here. I will learn how to drive it more and more effectively, and this will be my first step in reducing MY personal part of the demand for more oil drilling. Going to diesel is still using oil. I want out of the oil cycle someday, and EV's are going to be the ticket.

One more point... MOST people I meet or experience have NO interest whatever in learning to hypermile or do ANYTHING AT ALL to reduce their oil usage. So if you can find some way to sell them a nice MAINSTREAM car like a Prius, that they can drive pretty much normally, and still reduce the oil usage... HURRAY!!!

Not to pick on you or your wife specifically, but this WILL NOT mentality (it's clearly not just your wife that has it) not only toward manual transmission, but toward a LOT of stuff (composting, biking/walking to work if you only live about mile away, having less than 2 children, trying/learning anything in general other than "the missionary" in life). People are not born with this, it's purely cultural. Just because it's pervasive, widely used or widely available doesn't mean it's healthy or wise or responsible or correct. Many people never get educated enough to even realize this, and who can blame them? I just think it's the worst to see people lucky enough (usually wealthy enough) to actually be exposed to the education required to deduce this idea, and still won't budge. I don't assume you or your wife are ignorant, I just wanted to contribute this view to the conversation - food for thought. WILL NOT is a cop out born of a nasty cultural addiction many of us have, and it needs to stop if we expect to sustain any kind of civilization.

Wonderboy:
I understand what you are saying, but when my wife does not know how to drive a stick, and won't try, and there is a Prius with a CVT that gets great gas milage (oh, and I forgot to say has 8 airbags, that was a HUGE selling point), then why not make everyone's lives easier? It may have been a different story if the price difference was great, but it wasn't.
What you are talking about goes beyond manual transmissions, it's an "A-mer-i-ka" thing. There's a reason why most of the world sees the US as wasteful, stubborn, and needing to change. I know it can't be an attack on me or my wife, since we do composting, some gardening, and trying to reduce fuel consumption in and around the house as much as possible... no harm.

As an afterthought to the O.P., I've only recently had the opportunity to drive both a gen 2 prius and a gen 3 prius (only about a week apart), and I drove the gen 1 before it came out (tour de sol in Burlington NJ). I must say that hypermiling techniques are made incredibly easy with these cars, and the heads up display is pretty useful. Excellent for city driving, and in all honesty, probably a good band-aid for people who want good mileage but refuse to drive manual. I don't like the extra weight of the batteries/motor, especially when traveling long distances ("highway driving"), and when driving the prius, I found myself wishing for a non-hybrid CVT that acted like a hybrid (easy EOC using a shifter knob similar to that in the prius). It just doesn't feel small and responsive, but then again I was just driving them for a few hours - I hadn't developed that close connection between human and car where I could REALLY have a feel for what was going on. I'd at least rather see someone driving around in a prius instead of some crown vic/lumina/impala/jeep/taurus. Meh.

They make a lot of sense in the US where a car getting more than 25 seems to be a 'good deal' ;) Here in Europe even with higher fuel prices they seem to make far less sense, especially at the price they sell them for. Some comparisons of similar sized cars :

Cheapest Prius - 19,800 GBP
Peugeot 308 HDi - 16,190 GBP
Focus TDCi - 17,890
Citroen C4 (5 dr) HDi - 15,790 GBP
VW Golf TDi S (5 dr) - 17,840 GBP

These are only the 'mainstream' competitors. Start including the likes of Chevrolet (aka Daewoo), Kia, Hyundai and so on and you can start to get even bigger Diesels in for the same money. Full disclosure - add in auto trans (DSG, Sensodrive etc.) and the prices close up but then again most European drivers don't drive autos and you can't specify a manual Prius.

The difference in fuel economy between the Diesel models and the Prius is also going to take a long time to pay back. And that is using the official figures. Very few UK road tests I have read and owners I know (Gen2s and 3s, bit NOT hypermilers) get anywhere close to the claimed MPG in normal use - they just drive the things as normal cars here in the UK.

Combine this with the fact we do lower mileages than in the US (typical used car annual mileage is estimated at just 10K) and that new car owners tend to only keep their cars for 2-4 years mean that payback is probably never for them.

The few people I know with Prius's in the UK are mostly exactly the kind of people who bought them for the green image, precisely the thing Jeremy Clarkson hates. The remainder of them run also second cars which are not green - think X-5, Range Rover, Merc S-Class and so on. The Prius is their way of sticking two fingers up to the congestion charge which they are free from.

As for the insight there is a car more expensive that a Civic with only slightly better economy, less space and an awful ride. So why bother ?

Yet if the European diesel models added a hybrid drivetrain, they would improve their fuel economy by the same factor that a petrol-engined hybrid does over a similar non-hybrid.

I think that Toyota would be really clever to sell a diesel Prius along side a petrol one. That way, the general American public could see that diesels are better for FE without the old downsides, and it would make for one hell of a FE car.

On the other hand, huge amounts of resources go into building a hybrid, so I actually think that environmentally it would be better to just offer non-hybrid diesels at prices that are close to the petrol equivalent (even if that means jacking up the price of the gasser).

I can vouch for the roominess of the Prius, having detailed a 2nd gen. After seeing one up close and cleaning it, finding the extra storage bins in the back and such, I have to say their charm is rubbing off on me. Maybe I'll pick up a used 3rd gen in later years.

Some manufacturers like PSA (Peugeot and Citroen) keep pre-anouncing diesel hybrids but have been doing for quite a while. At the same time the Diesels seem to get better FE and power with each gen which is every 2-3 years.

For example in 2000 you could just about get a 110 hp Diesel in a VW TDi for loads of money. Now you can get a 105 bhp 1.5 CR Diesel in a cheap hatchback from Kia and get 60+ MPG without even trying.

And I think a very key problem for hybrids is that the drivetrain is not suitable for smaller cars like superminis (think Geo Metro sized) which Europeans love. Although they are getting larger and lardier (current Fiesta, Yaris, Aveo) adding hybrid batteries would be tricky without other side effects.

Not sure this would make much of a difference as Toyota like all makers charge a premium for their Diesel models. The problem with the Prius in the European market is price - same problem for the CRZ Couple which is the same in numbers in GBP as the US price.

For example the Auris hatchback (Corolla replacement in Europe) prices :

Auris VVTi (Petrol) 15,830
Auris D4-D (Diesel) 17,385

Interestingly one selling point that Honda are pushing with the Insight is that it should have lower maintenance that a Diesel. Most Diesels have a DMF which goes wrong randomly and expensively or lasts forever, as well as a lot of other highly stressed and expensive bits - fuel pumps for example. The Insight doesn't is their sales line.

Mind you a CVT ? A CVT seems like the engineers solution to a problem of efficient transmission that the end user has to suffer.

The Insight is selling poorly to not at all over here and will probably be dropped. I suspect Honda may also make a non-hybrid CRZ if they produce them in the EU at some point. But it would probably have to have a better engine as the CRZ is apparently quite sluggish when the regen runs out.

While I like the idea of CVTs, having torque converter is a killer. Hopefully someone will come out with one that uses an automatic clutch instead, in that configuration it would probably do better than a manual for a 'normal' driver.

Here in NZ the price gap for a diesel Toyota is getting much closer to the petrol versions, which is amazing considering that the engines are shipped from the factory in Turkey to Japan just for the NZ market. At launch the price gap was about $7000NZ ($5000US/3200GBP), whereas now it is only $2000-3500NZ. I see several Prii a day, and maybe one D4D Corolla a week, and considering that the Prius is $12000NZ more expensive than a Diesel Corolla Hatch (with pretty similar FE), I think people are willing to pay a extra for that "green" image, even if it isn't really there.
As the Prius has the green image already, if Toyota marketed a diesel version as being more so, it'd sell like hotcakes.

That's an outright lie, a descendant of the "Hummer is greener than a Prius" propaganda effort.

Oh, really? Seems to work just fine in the 1st gen Insight, and there aren't many smaller/lighter cars on the market.

Yep really. The Gen 1 insight was only a 2 seater. Most Euro hatches carry 4-5 people and luggage, or 2 people and a load of 'stuff' quite easily. The insight only had the latter option.

Look at Rob's VW Polo build thread for pics of his supermini or google cars like the Peugeot 207 or VW Polo. All have 4/5 seats and a boot. Smaller ones like the Citroen C1/C2 sometimes have moveable back seats so you can have leg room or luggage room.

EDIT - You also have to remember that most European families only have (or had until recently) one car - very few would have the US stylee one car, one truck for towing etc etc.

When I was little ALL of our family motoring needs (2 adults, 1 child, 1 dog) were catered for in a 10ft long Mini.

PS - Having tapped that of course Toyota now sell the Hybridised Auris which is a hatchback but it is larger than the cars I mean - its really a Focus / Astra sized car.

It's a fact that more resources go into making a hybrid than a standard car, how much more they use is hard to tell because no one has done a proper study.
I am surprised that Toyota hasn't funded research to counter the Hummer rubbish considering how much damage it did (I don't know about other countries, but here it got a lot of coverage, and a lot of people now think their V8 SUVs are better for the environment).

Saw a 2006 Prius on the local craigs list today. Under 25k miles, excellent condition.

$13500.

regards
Mech

And what's wrong with that? You (and the automakers) need to remember that there are a lot of people out here who don't have families - single people, couples without kids, or with kids who've grown up. Why should we be forced to carry around all that extra weight (and non-useful space) for the benefit of those who do?

And it would have been pretty easy to build a 2+2 version of the Insight.

Depends on what you're defining as standard. If you mean an average or typical car, then a hybrid like the Prius or Insight actually uses fewer resources to build, because they're smaller/lighter than average. Compared to similar size/performance models, they do use a bit more - but not all that much, and the extra is easy to recycle.

But in no way can the extra resources needed to build a hybrid be described as "huge". Minor is a better word.

Have you got a source for how much energy/resources are used to build a Prius vs a similar car (eg Corolla), or is it just your opinion? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just interested where the information is from. Anything that shows cars like the Prius to be better is good news.
Also, in most parts of the world, a Prius is about average, it's really only in the US that the Prius is much smaller than your average family car.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. My original point was that the hybrid tech (batteries, motors etc.) doesn't suit the small European style hatchbacks because of the space taken and the weight.

Your response was to compare the 1st Gen Insight to them which I don't think is valid as hatchbacks are aimed at families as well as folks with no kids - young or old.

To be honest I don't think Honda believed the Insight is comparable either as at the same time as the Insight they were (attempting to) sell the Honda Logo in Europe (which I think has the same 1.0L ICE as the Insight).

EDIT - No it didn't - the Logo had a 1.3.

http://www.click-cars.co.uk/1201/ima...r_id_991_1.jpg

No idea - I'm with you on this one. I would consider one. Ask Honda I suppose as they have abandoned the idea. The CR-Z has 4 seats, 2 of which are a PITA to get into, but they are still there. Of course you can remove them if you want, a lot of hatchbacks include the ability to easily completely remove the rear seats.

But they didn't and haven't. And the 2nd Gen one with 4 seats is cramped and has less luggage space compared to the competitors I already listed and Honda's own Civic hatchback which is different from the one sold in the US.