Green Grand Prix, Watkins Glenn, NY USA - April 20-21, 2012
 

The Green Grand Prix at Watkins Glenn, NY USA in April looks fun. How often do you get to hypermile on a world class race track! Electrathons will also be there and take to the track in the afternoon. And, there is a 70 mile, over the road eco rally the next day. See you there.
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Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site

Here's a video of Danica talking us through her lap at "The Glenn". The Green Grand Prix organizers mention the use of the shorter course so I assume this eliminates the hairpin and climb up to the Bronson Hill ridge so there should be no problem making it around at the required 50 mph with no brakes and no shifting and I may even consider adding some ballast to intensify the effect of engine off pulse and glide.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsct...eature=related
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WOO HOO! Now I have some real incentive to get my diesel swap rolling. I didn't make it last year, but I'm going to try much harder this year:thumbup:.

Here's the results from last year. The two Insights did well at 63 and 80mpg for the stock ones and 89 for the highly modified Alfred State competition vehicle. The best Prius brought back only 55. Someone had a custom vehicle that made it to 160mpg. The two wheeled division needs to do better as it was won by a Vespa with 80 mpg. I do better than that driving to work at 65mph.

Here's a report by the Insight guys that were competing last year.
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2011 Green Grand Prix results - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

The no drafting rule is stated as 50 feet following distance. There is still a lot of good air to be had at 60 feet if you get behind one of the sport utes. The cars were having trouble getting up the hills with out shifting. So, it is hilly.

Looking forward to seeing you guys there!

Shifting definitely was part of the process for my car.
Lots of EOC (no surprise there).
First in class at 57.21 mpg! (see my avatar at left)

I have some improvements on tap for the 2012 GGP so if I'm very fortunate I'll break 60 mpg - I just don't know by how much. Unfortunately it's so d**n cold out right now, it tends to limit what I can do on the car till things warm up.

As for drafting - in addition to the 50 foot distance rule noted above, I need to drive my car the way I think it needs to be driven - I don't want to be stuck matching the speed of some other vehicle who is driving their own game.

Plus, I think that getting an advantage from another driver up ahead who is also trying for maximum mpg kinda defeats the aim. Why wouldn't we all just enroll a friend with a large-backed vehicle to drive ahead of us to "break wind"? I think that's not really the competition we want.

Did you have room drive your own game with EOC? It looks pretty crowded out there.

This looks like a blast. I know I won't make it, but I have a question. Is the EPA rating based on combined rating? The up to 32 mpg class would then include my Fiesta which is rated @ 32 combined. It looks like a Porsche won that class at 32 mpg. Then again, I see where they base it off of the instrumentation,** which would suck for me. The Fiesta does not record during EOC, so the more I pulse and glide, the lower it goes.

Kirk

** Oops, only the hybrid are based off instrumentation.

There was a thread on this run last year here . It has an elevation map and a description of the fueling process.

One huge hill! Great elevation map posted. Not much feedback on driving management of the course. Lots of talk about the draw backs and accuracy limitations of using total lost vehicle weight to determine the fuel consumption. Maybe this is why the Vespa only showed 80 mpg. I will have to bring a graduated container to do my own tank fill method for a more accurate, unofficial result of what I really get.

Brucepick may have some insight as to any rule/procedure changes for this year.

I see it's on Friday again this year. 600 miles/12 hours round trip for me. Not sure about the timing, but I'm going to be doing a LOT of driving that weekend.

I'm only 2 hours away.

Very interesting. I talked to my roommates about building a vehicle for this. Sounds like a fun competition. I do have a few questions though:

1) Is the EPA combined rating the *new* EPA combined rating? I.E. if you choose a car that was built before the new ratings were implemented, are you classed using the original ratings or the converted new rating?

2) Are there going to be silly speed limits per corner as there appear to have been in the past? How strictly are these enforced?

3) I see the elevation map, but what approx % grade is the steepest hill? This may effect the gearing we would select and/or the cam timing we would use.

1) They use the new ratings for older cars.

2) NFI (no :D idea)

3) NFI

It is a rally not a race so you must average between 49 and 54 miles per hour for the event or face a penalty. A couple corners have speed limits of 40 and 45mph but you would want to be gliding through them anyway and that is not far from the 49mph limit that you want to match. The slowest possible time wins on air resistance.

Here's a new elevation map with some numbers. I guesstimate the hill at 1100 feet of distance for 180 feet of rise. Ratio of .16. Which is 9.3 degrees, 16.4% grade!

Might be more like 180 feet gained in 1600. 6.4 degrees , 11.3% grade.

Heh-heh. Yes it was crowded at first. There were times when I had to drive to accommodate the traffic. Was a bit frustrating occasionally but it happens in real-world driving too, so there's nothing unrealistic about it.

Last year it was a 2-hour run, about 35 laps, but about half the field chose to run the shorter option of 17 laps. So for the first 17 laps it was a bit crowded, depending on where you were on the track at any given moment.

I'm not sure of the exact details of this year's event. I think the organizers noted that it was a bit crowded during the first half (in 2011) so I wouldn't be surprised to see some change to the setup for this year, to reduce crowding.

I haven't driven the track, but I was more concerned about a speed-limited corner at the bottom of a grade. With grades as steep as your map shows, it would be easy to be coasting and still exceed 45mph. I'd rather just drive through the corner vs. scrub off speed with my brakes.

Thanks for the grade info though... 11% is pretty steep. That would likely require a downshift unless I could cut out a whole bunch of weight from the car.

1) As someone posted earlier, it's the "new" EPA combined rating. You'd find that if you look up the car now on the EPA site.

2) Last year observers were posted at several inside locations. I suspect you'd get flagged if you went flying through the turns, especially if it appeared to be unsafe - like a bunch of slower vehicles there at the same time or other unsafe situation. The GGP's organizers have always put a big premium on safety. Read a bit of race history and you'll see that one nasty accident can shut down a competition for years, or for good. (This isn't NASCAR, you know.)

3) Google "Watkins Glen Track" or "Watkins Glen Track grade", etc. You'll find articles detailing the track pretty well. Yes, as noted in an earlier post, the GGP uses the shorter version of the track so the "boot" with its hairpin turn and steep grade are eliminated.

I meant to ask earlier... what is the date for 2012?

Green Grand Prix Watkins Glenn, NY USA April 20-21 2012.
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Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...m/facepalm.jpg

All over that page it says 2011 everywhere. Completely missed the 2012 GREEN GRAND PRIX right at the top. Doh!

I talked to Bob today. There are still plenty of openings for the track day on Friday in addition to the rally. He is thinking he will end up with about 40 entries. Saturday will be a true SCCA road rally of 140 miles so bring your navigator. Secret maps will be handed out right before the start. He said he won't make it too tricky and it will stay to the main roads and have a fuel economy measurement at the start and finish of course.

The schedule for the 2012 Green Grand Prix is posted.
Friday, April 20


10:00AM:. Rally Registration at Tech Building

10:15 AM Rally Tech Inspection begins

11:30 A.M. Rally Drivers meeting

12 noon. Displays and seminars on sustainability topics begin in WGI Tech Bldg.

12 noon Lunch

1:00 PM Rally Stage 1 - 3 hour SCCA fuel economy rally on WGI short course.

4:00 PM Rally finishes




Evening social activities to be decided in village of Watkins Glen



Saturday, April 21


7:00 A.M Rally Registration and Tech Inspection: WGI Tech Building

TBA morn. NYElectrathon race registration and inspection

7:45 A.M. Rally Drivers meeting

8:30 A.M. Rally Stage 2- . Fuel economy rally starts with 2 laps on WGI circuit and continues onto public highways including 30 min. stops at cities of

Corning and Ithaca



12:30 PM Rally finishes and cars return to WGI Tech Building to be on display for

the public.

1:00 PM Seminars and presentations on sustainability topics begin in WGI Tech Building.



2:00 -3:00 PM Electrathon Race in North paddock area.

TBA Electrathon Technical presentations in Tech Building

4:00 PM- Awards Ceremony in Victory Circle

I probably won't know until April if I am going to make it this year. I wonder if I can get into Class I with my "slightly" modified Jetta;). EPA is 25mpg:thumbup:.

For 2010 and 2011 there were "modded" versions of most classes. Would have been one for each class if a modded car had entered for each.

Your gas log shows ~35-38 mpg in April 2011, and that was without the boat tail. Running in April weather this year I'd expect you will do very well. With the boat tail, I'd say it definitely be registered as modded. All the other mods to the car should also qualify it as modded but they're not quite as visible. ;)

If you register, the organizers will likely ensure there's a class that your car will fit into. I won't guarantee that there will be a class where your car's EPA will be right at the max for the class, with all others in that class having substantially lower EPA #s. :)


The classes breakdown on this page:
http://www.greengrandprix.com/about.pdf
is from the 2011 GGP. Document Properties: Created 3/14/2011
So far as I can see, the 2012 version isn't out yet.

I'd expect to see a revision to the classifications for 2012. That's based on the fact that the 2011 GGP had the classes revised from the 2010 GGP. It seems the organizers revised the classes after most entries came in, to morph them to accommodate the field of cars entered. Sensible to do, considering that ecodriving and ecomodding are still evolving.

In registering, I'd write in somewhere (I did it in the "Fuel type" entry box) EXACTLY what the EPA #s are and which features of the car determined that EPA #. The reason is that they only ask for year, make and model, nothing about auto/standard tranny or engine type. So they can't reliably determine EPA unless you tell them. Just my outspoken opinion.

I put this on my calender in hopes nothing comes up, I'd love to check this out...maybe even drive in it just for the experience.

...subscribed

Looking like I'll be competing in Class I(m) if I make it. The 1.6 diesel is junk, so the engine swap is off for a bit. Finishing the tail moves to the front of the list.

Friday Registration time moved to 10 a.m.
 

From the GGP Facebook page:

"The schedule has been revised and will be posted on the website soon: Registration for Friday, April 20 is at 10 A.M. (previously 9 A.M.)"

The Saturday driver registration is currently posted at 7:00 a.m. The Saturday rally runs 8:30-12:30 so I expect that registration time will stay as is, unless the Saturday event is pushed back in time.

I think I'm in:thumbup:

Looks like fun, interesting and a great opportunity to meet some of my internet hypermiling friends face-to-face. I have a modified 06 Honda Insight and would expect to run the modified class, since it would be rather difficult to get back to stock. Some questions:

1. One of my modifications is removal of the passenger seat, since it is never used. Would I qualify as "no passenger seat-no navigator," or must I reinstall the passenger seat and find a navigator?

2. My car has installed an electronic control device to manually control the operation of the electrical generator/motor portion of the hybrid - commonly referred to as a MIMA system. Can the MIMA device be used in the modified class, or must it be disabled?

3. Many components have been removed from my car in order to lower the car weight. Does this matter in the modified class?

4. Which turns had speed limits below the minimum average speed of 49 MPH?

5. I assume there is no passing in some/all turns. Correct?

Hope to see some of you folks there. It is awefully difficult to get together in such a widely dispersed special interest group and this looks like a great opportunity:D

This definitely would be a question for Bob Gillespie of the GGP. Go to the GGP site, find 'contact us at' over on the left side, and email Bob. I could swear that I saw this year's info stating you'll absolutely need a navigator for the 2nd day's run. But I can't find it. Also it has to be registered and fully road legal this year.

Personally, I didn't want a navigator the first time I went, but I missed a turn and it cost me some. I'd replaced the navigator with some ballast. My second year, with the event run only on the Watkins Glen track, I was very glad to have my brother with me navigating and recording lap data using pen and paper. This year's run will be longer (3 hours, each of two days?) and having him there will be most welcome.

If modded, anything goes, as long as its within the SCCA competition rules. You can google for those, it's a huge .pdf of 732 pages. But there's a good index so it's possible to find stuff in there. I doubt there's anything that would apply to a MIMA there, unless it affects safety

There haven't been varying degrees of modded status at the GGP, in my experience. So my only concern is the guy showing up with one little mod that gives the car 0.5 mpg increase over stock, and he's competing against cars that are heavily modded and getting 50% over stock mpg. They would be classed together.

In my experience, the GGP has been operating on "If the entrant says it's modded, it's modded". Sooner or later they may have to start inspecting the cars for mods and for stealthy mods. IMHO, modding drivers are very proud of their work and tend to say so right out front.

As above, it wouldn't matter, based on my experience. But of course all your safety components have to be there. Has to be road legal too.

I think the first turn? But this year's rules could be different so you'd just have to "deal".

HOWEVER as I recall, the target lap speed last year was 45 mph so steady running over 49 isn't really feasible. It's a rally, so you do need to be close to the target speed.

Yup.

I agree completely. And the event seems to be evolving forward every year.

:)It's really still quite confusing, but I'm beginning to piece it all together. From the registration form, one can register for the Friday WGI 3 hr economy drive(I think it's an economy drive), or the Saturday TSD rally or both. Since the Friday WGI drive is an economy contest, I think, then there would not be a target speed, just an acceptable range of speeds, and potentially some corner speed limits.

I'm not sure whether a navigator is required for the Friday WGI run, since one is only driving for economy on a well defined circuit for multiple laps.

I guess I'm going to have to make the call. Rules for the TSD rally are probably the normal SCCA Rally rules, but the WGI economy run is an entirely different animal.

It would help if they would update the page and cite some rules for both contests. Guess I'm going to have to make the call

I'm pretty sure it's all run under the SCCA umbrella - they have been the last two years, which is my experience time with the GGP. I'd say, write to Bob re. the questions you raised.

Jim- on the pdf that Bruce posted, http://www.greengrandprix.com/about.pdf , they state "If your vehicle has two seats you must have a navigator."

I still don't know if I can make it to this one. I REALLY want to go. I'm looking at traveling on Thursday(6 hours or so) and returning on Sunday. Fingers crossed:thumbup:.

Read back through this thread and you should find links to threads from last year from people that were there from Insightcentral.net. The track day on Friday requires a final average speed between 49-54 mph and is a fuel economy contest as is the road rally on Saturday.
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Here is my latest email.
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Dear Green Grand Prix folks,

Thank you to the many who have registered. Here is a quick look at the difference between Friday's Road Rally and the one on Saturday.
The Friday rally will have very simple instructions. You will drive around the track at the speeds you are instructed to and you will have certain stops you must make in the pits. We will fit each vehicle with a transponder. The event will last three hours.
The Saturday Rally will be a more typical Time-Speed-Distance Rally with checkpoints.The vehicles will start at the Watkins Glen International complex and go out onto public roads for about 100 miles. The route will involve a variety of driving conditions but all roads will be in very good repair and you will not be driving on any dirt roads. Your instructions will be more complicated than Friday's, It will definitely help to have a navigator for an extra set of eyes.
I will send out a set of General Instructions in early April.

There will be a set of awards for each rally and then overall awards for those who entered both stages. We will measure T-S-D driving accuracy and fuel economy.
I will send more information about our method of determining fuel economy later. Suffice it to say that we have several different categories and fuels, and we will not attempt to compare apples and oranges, so to speak. There are no easy, universally accepted conversion factors.We will most likely be using some different methods of measurement for certain categories. I'll send you more on this later.
Were just over a month away- again, don't hesitate to ask any questions.

Looking forward to seeing you here-

Bob Gillespie
Exec. Director Green Grand Prix Corporation (501C-3)
Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site

Who's going to the Green Grand Prix? (April 20-21, 2012)
 

I thought I'd start a new thread for this. How many EcoModder members are going?

I'll be there on Friday. Not entering, just showing up to see the cars.