High MPG Vehicle or Custom Build?
 

Hello,

I drive an average of 100 miles Monday through Friday for work. I drive a lifted '99 4runner on 35" mud tires... gas bill has been adding quick and I have started to look for good looking efficient car that I can modify. I settled on a 2003 Jetta TDI with the ALH motor in a 5 speed manual. I am still looking for "the one" low miles, clean title, no body damage, etc. I have been reading TDI forums none stop. I do not care if I get my money back after modifications from saving gas so please no preaching about how I drive. So far the main essentials on my build list are 17/22 turbo, PP520 injectors, FMIC, PD150 manifold, tune, clutch upgrade, aero mods, etc.

TODAY, I was reading a forum about aero mods for the Jetta and found were somebody posted about good info on this sight for eco mods. So I started browsing this website and found the URBA CENTURION! Spiked my interest real quick. But then I found were you have to make the body yourself... I can turn a wrench all day long and I have the equipment/space/money to do something like that but I hate working with fiberglass. Looked and looked and I could not find were I could just buy the body for the Centurion....

Is there a similar build as the Centurion that would allow me to get those kind of MPG? Kit? Any other success stories like the Centurion that is well documented?

Any cars you can take and do a motor swap on and modify it to get +100mpg?

I have to have a manual transmission and it can not look like a Prius.

Any advice is welcomed.

Welcome to ecomodder.

There is a vast amount of information here. The search box in the upper right is your friend.

I'm curious why you settled on the Jetta. Better mileage than the Prius? Why do you need a manual transmission when a single-speed electric drivetrain is most efficient?

If your looking for a project, rather than going anywhere, there's Robt. Q Riley. If you interest is the TDI into a kit there was https://www.smythkitcars.com/6-8 years ago.

vw tdi kit car - TDIClub Forums

Why not get a New Beetle TDI and boat tail it?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...llpaper-03.jpg

Edit: If it's about ROI and commuting; then an $8K off-lease Nissan Leaf is the best bet. How much do you pay for a kilowatt of electricity?

Not a fan of the look of a Prius.

I enjoy driving a manual, automatics are boring.

I want something that will be reliable (with proper maintenance) and I do not want to rely on a battery.

I have seen Robt. Q Rileys website, where you buy the plans for building a Centurion. I do not want to build a body from scratch.

Smyth kit cars are trying to turn a car into a truck. If I needed a truck bed I would buy a truck.

Get a manual transmission G1 Insight, then mod it.

Is it the loft line, surface development, or the sparkley gingerbread detailing?

Do you enjoy using the brake pedal as much?

Those are not necessarily two different things. Personally, I'm holding out until solid electrolyte or flow-cell batteries.

Get what you like and stop playing Why Don't You — Yes But. If, you know, you care to and all...

This!

Step back and examine what you're asking:
...gas bill has been adding quick and I have started to look for good looking efficient car that I can modify.
But I do not care if I get my money back after modifications from saving gas so please no preaching about how I drive.

Your ideal is ... modify it to get +100mpg?
But ...it can not look like a Prius.

As an aside, do you know why a Prius looks that way? It's because math doesn't care about your feelings.

Anyway, you say you don't like the money you're wasting on gas, but you "can not" be seen in something that doesn't burn much gas. You want to be seen in something cool and bang a wrench on it to make it give you magically high mileage, but don't want to operate it in a way that increases its numbers. Because racecar (and keep it quiet, but also wallet).

You get efficient results by taking an efficient machine and operating it efficiently. You can take an inefficient machine and modify it to be more efficient, and that's great. If your goal is "look what I made," then go for it and enjoy the hell out of it. The biggest, most effective mod, though, is adjusting the nut behind the wheel.

Thanks X2. But, I don't want to come across as cranky. I agree that the Prius is 'purdy' if you look at it and squint.

But I sincerely want OP to reply again. I am curious what the 'self-selected average' person thinks about regen. Is not having to touch the brake pedal more fun or less fun. Inquiring minds...

All these responses clearly did not read my original post. So before you reply how about you actual read what I was asking.

Fat Charlie I clearly said I don't want to hear preaching about driving. I know how to drive efficient when I want to. I HATE going to a forum about a mod for Improving gas mileage and some idiot starts preaching about the driving style.

I also stated I do not like the look of a Prius which looks exactly like a turd insight.

If you can't comprehend wanting to building a good looking vehicle that has the capability of out performing that turd box you call an insight/prius then please don't respond. Go hug your tree, talk about poor dying animals, charge your batteries or whatever else liberals do...

MY QUESTION:
"Is there a similar build as the Centurion that would allow me to get those kind of MPG? Kit? Any other success stories like the Centurion that is well documented?"

Is a Honda insight similar to a Centurion build??? NOPE

Is a Prius similar to a Centurion build??? NOPE

An actual modification to a car requires tools, experience, and hard work. Things I have seen people do on this website for "Hypermiling Mods" is tape Duct Tape and card board for "aerodynamics".... this is not an actual modification, this you trying to make yourself feel good because you lack the skills to actually do something. You are giving yourself a participation trophy and patting yourself on the back.

If you are not responding to my question about similar builds to the Centurion then move on. And if you think your turd box is similar to a Centurion then your opinion is worthless.

If you really want to do the custom thing get a beater to drive around till it's done. Paying for gas for a 100 mIle each way drive on a 4 runner with big tires is way too much. It can't be getting more than 20mpg.
So I'm guessing you are buying about 10 gallons of gas every work day and a set of mud tires every 6 to 9 months. Or 12 months if you run them till they look like drag slicks.

Have you ever thought about getting rid of mud tires and getting tire chains and highway or A/T tires? That way you are not wearing out a set of soft rubber muds every 6 to 9 months by putting highway miles on them?
Highway tires with chains will do better than any mud tire at 50% tread depth and do better than most muds at 75% remaining tread deapth.
Or get a highway set of wheels run them and take the mud wheel set off and leave them at home when you don't need them?

My next direction for my 4runner is a straight axle swap so I can lift it higher and make a custom suspension because right now with the independent front suspension my flex is horrible.

Ive looked for other builds like the Centurion and found nothing. I am probably just going to get a TDI jetta

I drove a 2004 jetta tdi for a while and the 2 things I found lacking were the intake piping and intercooler. Since you are going to be highway driving a bigger turbo wouldn't hurt. But before bigger injectors I would try water methanol injection first, unless the injectors were dirt cheap.

Oil Pan, when the VW rolled out the 2004 Jetta TDI it had pretty much the same body since 1999 but it had a different motor. The PD motors are well documented to be unreliable. 2003 is the last year of the ALH motor in a Jetta.

Oddly enough, I hate it when some idiot asks about fuel saving mods and refuses to understand that the mods don't save gas, the driver does: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Picking up one of Prince's guitars won't make you a better player, but practicing will even if it's on a silly looking guitar.

As to the Prius' looks, form follows ****ing function. You want to drive nails but hate the way hammers look? Then get used to doing it badly. You're basically asking for constructive advice on modifying a sawzall (that you haven't bought yet) to drive nails, and you're acting indignant when you get advice to simply buy a hammer. Because hammers look dorky.

Saying get over yourself isn't preaching. The air you're trying to push your car through doesn't care about your tastes. I actually do- just a couple weeks ago a new user was looking at an 07 Fit, an 09 Yaris and an 05 Corvette, and I was in favor of the Vette. That user was in touch with his wants and needs. But if it looks like you're lying to yourself and get abrupt, callous answers, don't call it preaching. It's important to be honest with yourself and let wants and needs affect each other. Call that preaching if you want.

Nope. If you're not interested in driving efficiently, you won't get those numbers in an Elio running on unicorn farts. See? Abrupt and not preachy. Tellin' it like it is, as they say these days.

On another note, the air you're pushing your car through doesn't care if it's moving around cardboard and duct tape or lovingly hand planished steel. Numbers at the pump aren't a participation award.

What has you so obsessed with the Centurion? Ya it looks cool, but it doesn't really get over 100MPG unless you're willing to take a few hours on your commute. According to this article, it gets 128MPG at a constant 35MPH, and around 40MPG in normal driving. The reason it gets good mileage is the tiny diesel (that tops out at 55MPH), not really the aerodynamics.

Have you ever crunched the numbers for how long it takes for mods to pay off? Most only increase mileage by a few percent each, and starting with a higher MPG car makes additional savings have less and less impact. If I were to buy/make $300 wheel skirts for my Prius and they took it from 50 to 55MPG (they wouldn't), it would take over 41k miles for them to pay off with $4/gal gas. If I made those same skirts using coroplast and some bits from the hardware store for $30, it would only 4100 miles to break even. That's why most mods are done on the cheap.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/Aero%20Te...emplate_01.png
This is pretty much what the optimal aerodynamic car would look like.

http://ecomodder.com/imgs/aerocivic/BoatRebuild15.jpg
This is the Aerocivic, the physical manifestation of the aero template. It gets 100MPG at 60MPH. Anything that doesn't look similar won't come close to those numbers.

You cast a wide net. When are you going to answer my questions?

I took a look at the Urba Centurion. Why would you want something like that piece of, um, 'automotive excrement'? Put a TDI on a Beetle floorpan. You want flex, add track and wheelbase with long arm A-arms and extended shock mounts. Then you can choose from a plethora of low-drag bodies.

A friendly suggestion: Expurgate your l*ngu*ge, the mods are watching.

The only other vehicles that can get similar MPGs as the Urba are the
High MPG Vehicle aka HMV freeway with proper motor
Subaru 360 with proper techniques

Otherwise just buy and build a Centurion if it's what you want.

A TDI is an expensive to own car, cheaper to just get any normal MT econobox in the long run. Heck even a Cobalt XFE.

Fat Charlie you must not have any basic understand of how a combustion engine works... which explains your duct tape and card board "modifications".

When you increase the efficiency of how a motor runs, the mpg increases regardless of how you drive.

For the VW's with the ALH motor, it is well documented that if you install a bigger turbo and injectors (with the correct supporting systems like FMIC, etc) this will increase the efficiency of the motor. The increase in forced air at the right amount coupled with the correct tuning almost doubles the HP and Torque of the motor.

Then after doing those upgrades, WITH A MANUAL TRANSMISSION, you can swap out the 5th gear for a taller gear. Because you have increased the efficiency/torque of the motor it can now handle the increased load of a taller gear.

With this done you can be cruising at 1,500 rpms going 70mph and get 80+mpg. I am not making up these numbers, again this is well documented BEFORE even doing any aero mods.

While at the same time when I come up to Fat Charlie's duct tape/card board car cruising at 50mph Ill drop it into 4th and fly by with the new capabilities of my car. Also I be leaving you a black cloud of smoke because my Jetta will be a 3" straight pipe from turbo down pipe to tip of my exhaust! None of that catalytic converter nonsense.

Fat Charlie how about you educate yourself before making another uneducated comment on vehicles. You can be the most efficient driver but at the end of the day you are going to plateau when you reach the max capabilities of your motor and drivetrain. All the duct tape and card board in the world isn't going to change that.

Fat Charlie you compared building an efficient car to playing the guitar???

TDI's are expensive car to own if you do not do the maintenance and work yourself.

TDIs of the last 20 years are expensive even when you do the work, the parts run more $$$ and get replaced more often. (My father owned one)
To say money pit is an understatement .

If you want a TDI stick with a 1994, it's the cheapest to run.

As for uneducated get your 80mpg ALH TDI running and keep a fuel log here.
Educate us and prove us wrong with data.
You can also look for cars identical to what you propose, many here have owned or modd'd TDIs in their past, their garage entries (or fuelly ) and conditions they drove in are usually there as well.

You may find why we have a disclaimer here about claims, especially those made on the internet about intakes exhaust and turbos which usually gain less than 5% in the real world. (Many reduce efficiency)

Further that up to 90% of the energy needed to move a car is to displace air as you move, your arguments on splitting hairs with gaining a few percent with a turbo fall flat with me.

A TDI gains FE from gearing despite the turbo so no argument there.

I recommend reading about the VW Lupo which actually does what you want, it can do what you want with or without a turbo.

Feel better now?

Fat Charlie compared driving the car to playing a guitar. I know reasoning by analogy is hard, but geez Louise...

Keep it clean, boys. We don't want to turn this in to another one of those forums.

Rant+helpful answers combined, bear with me.



Well, looking back at your original response, it isn't really clear what you want...You want to get better mpg because your 4 runner is costing too much money to do long commutes on, but you also say you don't care how much mods cost...Are you trying to get the best mpg just for the heck of it?

The reason you are getting preaching is because cars like the Centurion need to be driven EFFICIENTLY to get 100 mpg. Driving style mods WORK. 40% improvement in mpg JUST from driving style mods is easy, and many times it can allow you to maintain the same avg speed. Another thing about driving style mods, THEY ARE FREE. There are 50cc scooters available that will give you your 100 mpg if you don't wan't to adjust your driving style.

So you call the insight a turd, but not the prius? The insight can come with a MANUAL TRANSMISSION, no prius can. Are you comparing the 2nd gen insight to the prius? Cause I don't really see the resemblance between 1st gen insight and prius. What if I called your 4 runner a turd? "F***ing piece of **** SUV that can't take a hard corner without rolling over!" There! See...How does that feel? I can bet you that we feel pretty similar when you come on a hypermiling forum and right away start bashing successful eco cars.

Have you looked around this forum at all? A lot of the people here are not liberals, I myself am a libertarian. Are you ready for it? Do you want to hear the MAIN REASON I hypermile? Ready? Here goes!

ENGINES ARE FUN.

That's right, I think engines are F***ing amazing fun. They can sound amazing, they are very practical, and they are just plain FUN to operate! However, the problem is that engines are inefficient and are dependent on a declining fuel supply. What does this have to do with engines being fun? Well, if the EPA goes and decides that engines are evil and need to be banned altogether, then they are gone. No more fun. I hypermile because engines are a privilege we get to enjoy fairly freely. I want it to stay that way. If everyone started driving more efficiently (trust me, its really F***ing easy) then we get to enjoy engines for LONGER! I want my children and grandchildren to be able to enjoy engines too, not just me telling stories to them about the good ol' days.

Look up the LO-COST, it is essentially a cheap Lotus 7 kit car. I have seen somewhere that a guy put an aero body on one plus other mods and could touch 100 mpg. Here is one such LO-COST thread: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-11009-21.html

So screwdrivers, wire cutter pliers and hammers are not tools? Reading about real aero experts and their discoveries via research papers plus understanding general aero rules for cars doesn't equal experience? 20+ hours of work is not hard work? You sound more like a stylist than an engineer when you talk like that. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PRETTY TO WORK.

Here are the modifications to my car, take a good look. It sure isn't winning any design competitions, but I can tell you one thing, THEY WORK.
Attachment 21499
Attachment 21500
Attachment 21501

Your turn, show us your aero mods. Oh wait, that's right, you have none. Not even a PARTICIPATION TROPHY for you! HA!


Okay, thanks.
I think you are confusing VOLUMETRIC efficiency with fuel efficiency. You could do all those mods to your engine and end up with great volumetric efficiency but ****tastic mpg.

The only way I could see a car like that getting 80 mpg at 70 mph without EXTREME aero mods is by drafting. Consider that many non fuel economy forum members don't regularly track their fuel economy and may use faulty methods to come to a faulty conclusion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You really have conflicting goals don't you? You want to be able to cruise at 70mph at 1500 rpm, okay. That takes TORQUE, specifically low end torque, the very low end torque that you LOSE by going to a 3" straight pipe on a small engine. Black clouds of smoke? That is unburned fuel, you say you want to get good mpg?

Catalytic converters exist for a reason. Ready for it?
Attachment 21498
That is smog. No one likes smog. Smog sucks. Catalytic converters cut down on smog by SIGNIFICANTLY reducing unburned hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxides, and particulate matter. All this SIGNIFICANT pollution reduction comes to you at the cost of slightly reduced high rpm engine performance. That's it. You don't need to kill the cat to get good mpg or make good power.

On that note, there is also a reason California has such strict emissions laws. Yes, a lot of that simply has to do with environmentalist culture/lobbying, but the real reason is that California is boxed in by mountains which cut off the airflow. Here is a quote about this subject that explains it better than I can:
"Los Angeles in particular is strongly predisposed to accumulation of smog, because of peculiarities of its geography and weather patterns. Los Angeles is situated in a flat basin with ocean on one side and mountain ranges on three sides. A nearby cold ocean current depresses surface air temperatures in the area, resulting in an inversion layer: a phenomenon where air temperature increases, instead of decreasing, with altitude, suppressing thermals and restricting vertical convection. All taken together, this results in a relatively thin, enclosed layer of air above the city that cannot easily escape out of the basin and tends to accumulate pollution."

I'm sorry, but not using efficient driving techniques is going to prevent you from plateauing how? And actually, card board and duct tape CAN change that by improving aerodynamics. Just because it doesn't look pretty doesn't mean it doesn't work. I showed my aero mods to some of my formula SAE team members, and you know what they did? No, they didn't disown me for not spending 3000 god damn hours in solidsuicide designing them and making the parts out of 101% pure refined Supreme branded carbon fiber. You know what they thought about my semi-ghetto aero mods? They liked them! That's right, they don't have to be pretty. Engineers come to appreciate function over form.

My wife has a 2001 VW bug turbo gas motor. By comparison my 1985 suburban with 454 and 3 speed auto with 4.10 rear gears is cheaper to drive base on operating cost.
To say a VW is expensive to operate is an under statement. 2 trips to the dealership cost a total of $1,800 and that's not counting towing it 80 miles each way with my suburban and car trailer.
They are great vehicles, just not for very long.

My dad had a 2001 TDI, in 120,000 miles
Timing belt & cover , water pump
Glow plugs twice and harness rebuild
Oil pan & seal
All 4 rotors rusted out had to do a full brake job and bearings, parts were surprisingly expensive
Injection pump had a defect from the factory and grenaded $3000 in parts after warranty.
Glove box failed twice, replacement was the most difficult glove box I ever did
Passenger door would only unlock if the driver got in and pulled the handle
Both fenders replaced under warranty because the paint peeled off and rusted out had to fight VW months for a recall
Rear bumper paint peeled for no apparent reason
Interior was not cleanable
All plastic handles peeled
Trunk release broke, hard to use the key
Front end chewed up tires in strange ways front end wouldn't align

Probably a few dozen other things I'm forgetting

Because racecar

It would be far less work to replace the mud tires with LRR tires, remove the lift kit, convert to 2WD, add a grille block and air dam, adjust the differential ratio as appropriate, and learn to drive for mileage. The OP would double his gas mileage and keep the vehicle that he obviously likes.

That reminds me the glove box is still broken.
This one holds front end alignment real good.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...0/73677854.jpg


I've never built an engine, don't have the knowledge to build an engine, don't have the inclination to build an engine. Mainly because it makes more sense to work backwards: until you minimize losses due to driving style, aero and rolling resistance, it doesn't matter what you've done to the engine because you're going to force it to work through all those inefficiencies.

At the right ambient temps, my engine is efficient enough that I get 300 mpg while gliding at 60 mph. If I want better than that, I've got a key that brings it up to infinity mpg. Call it a failing of mine, but I'm perfectly happy with that kind of efficiency under the hood. Maybe if I get really ambitious a WAI could bring that up a bit, but it'd take more testing than wrenching, and would only ever pay off if I saw it as a "look what I did" mod.

Tire pressure and a grille block, OTOH, produced big reductions in rolling and aero resistance, and the block actually lets my non-wasteful engine put some heat into the cabin in the winter. Another fun fact about aeromods is that they help even more when you're going faster. If it helps, I went high end with the grille block: coroplast instead of cardboard, recessed and painted black. When I posted a pic here, someone thought I had accidentally posted the "before" shot.

So, just for readers coming across this, I'd like to set the record straight:
The Green Car Reports article pulls directly from Lane Motor Museum's account of the "Burlington Cars" built Centurion and not from their own experience with the car. Not a problem for Green Car Reports, or even Lane Motor Museum for that matter, the problem is the car at Lane is one example, and one I question. After discussions with Mr. Riley, we both agree there is an issue with that car, and we know the build was deviated from just in appearance alone.

In contrast, I have three Centurions: Riley's original, the gray one I built, and a fully electric one. Riley's original will beat his original numbers without modification and without hypermiling. 55 mph is not the top speed limit of a Centurion by any means (my gray one tops out at 88 mph and there's still headroom). All three Green Grand Prix events that Centurion went to are very well documented as-is all the trips driving to and from the event (uncut footage from in-car cameras).

At those events (2015, 2016, 2017) Centurion went up against some pretty stiff competition, on the same track, same conditions, same 100 miles with one mandatory stop, with two people in the car per their rules and the mpg for all contestants at the end of the day speaks for itself. Eventually Centurion's numbers will be beat at the event, but I'm not seeing that yet..

I have a lot on my laundry list, but somewhere in it is reviving Riley's original (which I did start) and then onto the electric if batteries ever get viable for electric cars - they need one more leap. Should that happen I'll start a separate thread for that car.
-
~CrazyJerry~

Thanks for chiming in!

~

Today was the first time I saw this thread. I understand this was years ago now, but I was a bit shocked by how this played out.

.


3 years later...



Such a timely response... https://i.postimg.cc/ZRCtX1YP/BD5617...F60-D607-B.gif



Welcome back...

:)

>

Every now and then there is a guy who shows up with questions, but then he can't hear answers. Always seems like that dude is trying to please an off-forum audience still looming large in his head. Usually, he gets down to bragging or insults really quickly. That's when I lose interest. Good luck with your build, hey.

I can't find the overall results for 2015-2017 online anywhere. You (or anyone else) don't happen to have copies?

LoL Redneck!
I've been a little busy on a few other projects...
Slow but sure, I'll get there... :snail:
-
~CrazyJerry~

Vman455,
Copies of Centurion's relevant years (2014, 2015, 2016) can be found at the following links:

2014 Awards List - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...wards_List.pdf

2014 Rally Spreadsheet - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...preadsheet.pdf

---

2015 Awards List - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...wards_List.pdf

2015 Rally Spreadsheet - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...preadsheet.pdf

---

2016 Awards List - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...016_Awards.pdf

2016 Rally Spreadsheet - https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...preadsheet.pdf

---
~CrazyJerry~
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https://diesel-bike.com/Centurion/GG...abbit_2017.jpg

I assume OP is long gone, but just in case he isn't...

I also drive a 1999 4Runner. V6, 5 Speed, 4x4. I have 34" tires for offroading. I have a set of rock sliders, skid plates, real recovery points, winch, etcetera. I keep a set of 31" tires for daily driving though. I don't like offroad tires for use onroad for extended periods. Anyway my 4Runner gets 25+ MPG average with the street tires, and that falls to 23+ with the 34" tires mounted. (I want to build some conveyor belt tire spats to help with that...) Why not try to improve the MPG of what you already have?