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willy57 04-29-2008 04:53 PM

Hydrogen Generator Experiment
 
This site is very informative. Thanks to all who post. I know most posts are much more complex but I found this simple fun experiment I wanted to share.

[spam link removed by admin]

Have fun. Looking forward to future posts.

AndrewJ 04-30-2008 12:46 AM

What exactly are you planning on doing with a hydrogen/oxygen bubbler?

Please note in the video that the battery charger that's running the bubbler is putting out 100 amps at 12 volts.

That's 1200 watts of output, with 50% charger efficiency that's 1800 watts at the outlet. "Cracking" hydrogen and oxygen gas from water is a VERY energy intensive process.
Not worth it IMO.

blackjackel 05-15-2008 03:12 AM

why not just use the engines heat to generate water vapor to go in with the air intake.... same thing, and it would allow the combustion crack it :D

Joseph Davis 05-15-2008 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackjackel (Post 25975)
why not just use the engines heat to generate water vapor to go in with the air intake.... same thing, and it would allow the combustion crack it :D

When combustion temps become high enough to seperate water into it's component hydrogen and oxygen it is called detonation. At the temps that shear water molecules it's too hot for H and O to recombine into water, so they seek out the next best thing: aluminum or steel in the combustion chamber. Not good.

For every pound worth of gasoline injected into an ICE there is approximately two pounds of water formed in the combustion reaction, which as wet steam is the primary motive force that pushes against the pistons. Kinda interesting that a gasoline engine is also an open cycle steam engine, eh?

88CRX 06-10-2008 03:21 PM

Any luck with this. A coworker metioned it to me acouple of months ago.

It seems like it won't work because it takes more energy to seperate the water molecule, than what you get out, when recombined.

But thier are so many people out there that swear to it. Even the cheap eBay bottle sellers get good reviews from the purchaser.

There must be something else going on here. Maybe small amoumts of hydrogen and oxygen added to the air/fuel mixture changes the burning characteristics???

Has anyone in this forum actually tried and got positive, no, or negative results?

88CRX 06-11-2008 05:33 AM

Okay i'm at home wondering about this, i found an articale in wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_Fuel_Injection

There might be merit to HHO, but not as the way they advertise... 50% is probably based on higher concentrations of Hydrogen, than what HHO generators can produce. But that small about might still give an improvement.

This part got my attention:

Automotive fuel enhancement systems work by injecting a hydrogen rich mixture, or pure hydrogen into the intake manifold of an internal combustion engine combined with air/fuel ratio, and timing modification. A small amount of hydrogen added to the intake air-fuel charge permits the engine to operate with leaner air-to-fuel mixture than otherwise possible.[3] As the air/fuel mix approaches 30:1 the temperature of combustion substantially decreases effectively mitigating NOx production.[3]

Under idle conditions power is only required for extraneous components other than the drive train, therefore fuel consumption can be minimized. A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption, at idle, was reported by numerically analyzing "the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine".[4]

Under most loads near stoichiometric air/fuel mixtures are still required for normal acceleration, although under idle conditions, reduced loads, and moderate acceleration Hydrogen "addition" in combination with lean burn engine conditions "can guarantee a regular running" of the engine "with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption".[5]

Increases "in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen".[3] This is specifically with regard to use of a hydrogen reformer. Overall computational analysis "has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a" substantial "performance decrease, but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption".[4]

Overall comparing "the properties of hydrogen and gasoline, it is possible to underline the possibilities, for hydrogen fueled engines, of operating with very lean (or ultra-lean) mixtures,[6] obtaining interesting fuel economy and emissions reductions".[5] The "concept of hydrogen enriched gasoline, as a fuel for internal combustion engines, has a greater interest than pure hydrogen powered engines because it involves fewer modifications to the engines and their fueling systems".[5]

[edit] Engine Control

ECU or carburetor modifications are required to establish lean or ultra lean burn engine conditions; where the hydrogen permits leaner conditions than possible with solely hydrocarbon fuel.[7][3]

88CRX 06-11-2008 05:36 AM

I wish i can read the rest of this:

Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine At Part-Load Operation

here: http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2002-01-2196

88CRX 06-11-2008 05:38 AM

here is another one:

Lean-burn characteristics of a gasoline engine enriched with hydrogen from a plasmatron fuel reformer

here: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16124816

88CRX 06-11-2008 05:42 AM

There is a bunch more.

Just search google: hydrogen enriched gasoline engine.

has anyone tried this, and taken before and after measurement?

Daox 06-11-2008 09:04 AM

I've heard of a lot of people try it, but none have gotten good results from it. However, hydrogen has been proven to improve a gasoline engine's efficiency. The problem with many kits IMO is none of them allow you to retune the engine to account for the changes in combustion characteristics.

88CRX 06-11-2008 12:30 PM

I was wondering the same thing the ECU or Carb must be adjusted to burn leaner, because the Air/HydroCarbon Fuel/Hydrogen burns more efficiently.

They sell HHO Map sensor adjustment devices like this:
eBay Controller

I Think the more expensive probably have them included.

What's weird is they all seem to miss the mark as to why they save gas. they are not running off Hydrogen, the hydrogen enhances the Hydrocarbon Fuel/Air Combustion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 33664)
I've heard of a lot of people try it, but none have gotten good results from it. However, hydrogen has been proven to improve a gasoline engine's efficiency. The problem with many kits IMO is none of them allow you to retune the engine to account for the changes in combustion characteristics.


Daox 06-11-2008 12:49 PM

Two potentiometers on the map sensor are not going to to squat for altering fueling maps. You need a much better system and a way of altering closed loop maps. Probably more important than fuel is that you need alter ignition timing... The whole thing really isn't that simple and I think thats why the DIYers get tripped up.

FYI, I've never built anything myself. I've just read about it.

88CRX 06-11-2008 03:39 PM

yeah i'm not sure about the potentiometers either.

I'm not planing on building anything either, I just think when people say that it doesn't work (like me, because you put in more energy, than what you get out), should rethink about it because of results people have.

All those satified customers can't be wrong. (maybe there ECU's recognized that timing A/F mixture can adjusted). I know Honda's do that, when higher octane fuel is used. I'm guessing the H/F/A mixture behaves like higher octane fuel. So that's why some people get good results, some don't.

I decided to look more into it and i realized the advertisements were misleading. benefits are from a changes in combustion properties, not actually using the hydrogen as a fuel...

88CRX 06-12-2008 02:20 AM

I seem like these diesel guys are getting great increases:

Magdrive HHO test results

More results

Bigs 06-13-2008 10:50 AM

I have been researching on this a lot. The reason is a local guy wants to get a grant to start his business and his primary product is HHO Kits. I have emailed him with questions and hasn't replied. Though, he has replied to my brother.

Now, my research has founf that people are installing these on OLD rundown cars. I haven't see 1 video with a new car. Of course the MAP/MAF and o2 sensors will act funny. Water vapours, will it screw up your engine and exhaust system? I'm sending this guy an email concerning this to see his replies. I'll keep you posted!

88CRX 06-13-2008 12:39 PM

Although there may be some merit... i just saw a video of a canister blow up!

Be careful if you do try it.

NeilBlanchard 06-13-2008 12:46 PM

Hello,

The basic principle of this sort of device is impossible -- it is a perpetual motion machine (if it were true!) and therefore it is bunk.

I think the OP is a Spammer...

Daox 06-13-2008 01:38 PM

Niel, please read up on how the system works before making assumptions. The hydrogen is not primarily used as a fuel and is therefore not a perpetual motion machine. What happens is the hydrogen changes the combustion characteristics. More specifically it increases flame speed which increases the efficiency of the engine. This has been proven.

NeilBlanchard 06-13-2008 01:54 PM

Hello,

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I do know that making hydrogen through electrolysis is pretty inefficient, and depending on how much hydrogen is needed to have the desired effect -- is there a net gain of energy? IOW, does this scheme increase the overall efficiency of the engine?

[Edit: I watched the video the OP linked to, and it shows how to make hydrogen -- but how would one connect this in a controllable manner to ones vehicle? I use steam humidifiers that run on a very similar principle (They use carbon rods as electrodes) -- I'm puzzled by the need for distilled water which they then add salt to? The salt conducts electricity through the water (pure water is actually an insulator!), so it would also work fine to just use tap water. Of course, the mineral and chlorine content are going to vary...

What happens to the oxygen?

Lastly, if the device draws anywhere near 100 amps (that would be 1200watts!), this would severely load your alternator, and therefore the added load is greater than the energy released into the hydrogen -- so the gains of efficiency in combustion would have to be pretty large.]

Daox 06-13-2008 02:06 PM

You would be correct there. However, the ICE is also horribly inefficient, so there is tons of room to improve. According to many sources the necessary amount of hydrogen is not much. But what is not much? Like I mentioned above, I have not tried it myself and I have not seen any proof that it absolutely does work. Hydrogen does improve efficiency. But, I have yet to see it proven that a HHO generator can be run efficiently enough to overcome its power requirements. Do I think it can be done? Yes, I do. I have heard of guys who know a LOT more than me about engine building say it works.

I also recently got this link.
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1716/69/

NeilBlanchard 06-13-2008 02:21 PM

Hello,

Have you folks heard of using (non-oxidized) aluminum to split water, and release the hydrogen?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10621223
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...-research.html
http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

Daox 06-13-2008 02:29 PM

The need for distilled water is simply to keep the unit clean. As the water is broken down any impurities will remain. Eventually the generator needs to be refilled as it'll run out of water. The impurities continue to build up and will eventually short the generator.

The OP's example is a bad design and 100 amps is a ton of energy. I've seen generators running on 5-10 amps that produce a fair amount of HHO. I can't remember (I have it written down at home) but IIRC there is one that is claiming 60 lph @ 10 amps I believe. This is supposidly enough for most car engines.

The oxygen gets drawn into the engine and is used as part of the combusion.

Lazarus 06-13-2008 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 34514)
The oxygen gets drawn into the engine and is used as part of the combusion.

On modern EFI engines would EFFIE's(?) to spoof theO2 senors be required to use the kits?

Bigs 06-13-2008 03:00 PM

^^^ Yes they sell those for EFI engines with o2 sensors. I also saw an adapter for the o2 sensor. It moves it fiurther out, but not sure how that would trick it...

Daox 06-13-2008 03:25 PM

The EFIE is an okay device for altering closed loop mixtures a very small amount. However, once you start leaning things out too much you go beyond the intended use of the sensor and the resolution becomes horrible. Here is a chart that shows AFR vs O2 sensor voltage. As you can see, there is almost no voltage change at higher AFRs.

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/nbsensor.jpg


The $olution? Use a wideband O2 sensor. They allow proper resolution for higher AFRs. All the new systems can simulate a narrowband sensor's signal, and you can set the AFR at which it operate in closed loop mode. For example, I can tell the wideband system to say 17:1 is stoimetric and it'll keep me at 17:1 while in closed loop.

cfg83 06-13-2008 03:46 PM

88CRX -

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88CRX (Post 34041)
I seem like these diesel guys are getting great increases:

Magdrive HHO test results

More results

110% agreement here. For HHO to work, the car must be reconfigured for lean burn. That's one of the reasons it's a PITA to make work. A diesel engine likes to "go-lean" by design, so it is a better ICE for the job.

I have an HHO generator from www.hydrogen-boost.com. just like Daox says, I haven't had any results. However, I have not been willing to implement all the mods required for "the system" to work. This includes MAP and 02 sensor spoofs, and a fuel heater (using waste heat from engine coolant).

If I had to do it all over again, I would seriously *consider* this gizmo :

HydranOx - $400 :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

The reason I am curious about it is that it *claims* to separate the H2 from the 02. If the gizmo is only sending H2 into the air intake, this would remove the need to modify the 02 sensor, which I like, :) . But, I wouldn't pump the 02 into the cabin of the car, that's for sure.

I am not saying that the above gizmo is not a scam, I am just saying that it claims to solve an existing deficiency with HHO designs.

CarloSW2

trikkonceptz 06-13-2008 06:55 PM

Hydro 4000
 
Hey guys, do me a favor help me make an educated decision on this product .. It is a Hydrogen generator, the website is hydro4000.com

I have seen the product first hand and my dealership is looking to back the product for sale. These guys got their lucky break by giving a unit to the local news station to use on their news van and saw positive results.

Just by using 15amps of power this unit creates hydrogen which is introduced into the intake manifold after the map sensor. Because of the low current the creator says it takes about 30 days for the unit to begin producing hydrogen efficiently. Several customers that come to my work have them and say it works. But with testimonials like; " I go to the gas station less" & "My car feel more powerful", I get real suspicious.

I know one of the benefits is it burns off all carbon build up, resulting in a better runing engine and of course if you percieve you are getting better mileage, you'll drive that way to see results.

Like others, it uses distilled water to refill and claims that you have to fill it up every other tank. I've seen the kit and it is well made, I am just concerned about the free flowing hydrogen into the intake and the ecu's ability to compensate for fuel.

Take a look at it and let me know. Thanks ...

cfg83 06-13-2008 07:40 PM

trikkonceptz -

I navigated to the Paypal. They want $1200 for it, so I say no. For that $$, you should make your own.

CarloSW2

trikkonceptz 06-13-2008 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 34605)
trikkonceptz -

I navigated to the Paypal. They want $1200 for it, so I say no. For that $$, you should make your own.

CarloSW2


Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

silverknight 06-13-2008 08:05 PM

Hey guys.
I am in the middle of building my own generator but not from any purchased plans. I researched a couple designs and choose one to start off with. I also bought a scanguage to get some data for an A-B-A test of my build. I plan on trying a simple mod to send a slightly higher voltage from the o2 sensor to the ecu to make sure it leans out. Also going to try to retard the timing if needed.

The only way this will work is if the hydroxy gas makes burning gasoline more efficient to make up and exceed the electrical losses in the generator. We will see.

I am waiting for the correct electrolyte, aka, NaOH (sodium hydroxide) or KOH (Potassium hydroxide). These are cheap as well but you either have to order them online or have a soap making supply shop near you.

cfg83 06-13-2008 08:07 PM

trikkonceptz -

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 34611)
Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

Ok, that's different. I'll spend more time on the site than just looking at the pri$e.

CarloSW2

jamesqf 06-14-2008 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 34598)
Because of the low current the creator says it takes about 30 days for the unit to begin producing hydrogen efficiently.

My, how convenient - for the con artist, I mean. The 30-day delay for the effects to show up means a lot of gullible marks can be parted from their money, before said con artist needs to skip town with the swag.

NeilBlanchard 06-14-2008 06:51 AM

Hello,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox (Post 34514)
The need for distilled water is simply to keep the unit clean. As the water is broken down any impurities will remain. Eventually the generator needs to be refilled as it'll run out of water. The impurities continue to build up and will eventually short the generator.

The thing MUST have the salt in there in order to work! Salt IS an impurity, too. And yes, any and all impurities will built up as a crust on the electrodes.

So again, why would one use distilled water -- and then add an impurity? (Which will build up inside the plates.) The only reason I can think of is to try and control the rate of conductance -- though he sure doesn't measure it, like he said in the instructions...

88CRX 06-14-2008 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83 (Post 34540)
88CRX -



110% agreement here. For HHO to work, the car must be reconfigured for lean burn. That's one of the reasons it's a PITA to make work. A diesel engine likes to "go-lean" by design, so it is a better ICE for the job.

I have an HHO generator from www.hydrogen-boost.com. just like Daox says, I haven't had any results. However, I have not been willing to implement all the mods required for "the system" to work. This includes MAP and 02 sensor spoofs, and a fuel heater (using waste heat from engine coolant).

If I had to do it all over again, I would seriously *consider* this gizmo :

HydranOx - $400 :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

The reason I am curious about it is that it *claims* to separate the H2 from the 02. If the gizmo is only sending H2 into the air intake, this would remove the need to modify the 02 sensor, which I like, :) . But, I wouldn't pump the 02 into the cabin of the car, that's for sure.

I am not saying that the above gizmo is not a scam, I am just saying that it claims to solve an existing deficiency with HHO designs.

CarloSW2

So you have an HHO in your car now. no differences huh... how much did it cost?

I believe that there might be merit, but only certain cars.

It would seem like something free for nothing, but i reality you have to check it often put water, clean etc. so it does not end up free...

cfg83 06-14-2008 02:35 PM

trikkonceptz -

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz (Post 34611)
Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

I did some more reading but I don't understand parts of it. There is no traditional catalyst, just mineral water :

Gerolsteiner Spring Water - Sparkling
http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...rolsteiner.asp
Code:

Gerolsteiner Analysis BOTTLED WATER ANALYSIS:
milligrams per liter (mg/l)
2527        TDS       
        ph factor       
347        Calcium       
39.7        Chlorides       
0.21        Fluordine       
1817        Bicarbonate - See (1) below
108        Magnesium       
0.4        Maganese       
5.1        Nitrate       
10.8        Potassium       
40.2        Silica       
119        Sodium       
2.9        Stroncium       
36.3        Sulphates

After initially charging the system with mineral water, you switch to distilled water. Usually, for the system "to work", I would think they must have a (nasty) catalyst. Because of this my vivid imagination makes me think that they have done something exotic with the interior metal conduction plates (which have to be there), but I have no proof. They are claiming stainless steel, but that doesn't seem enough to me :

(Technology Tab)
http://hydro4000.com/technology.htm
Quote:

... For example, using iron electrodes in an electrolyte solution will produce iron oxide at the anode, which will react to form iron hydroxide. When producing large quantities of hydrogen, this can significantly contaminate the electrolytic cell reducing its hydrogen output. This is why our HYDRO-4000 is made entirely of stainless steel.
(1) I noticed the Bicarbonate component to the mineral water. For some HHO generators, people have claimed that bicarbonate soda (Arm & Hammer) would work as a catalyst. Others have said this is a bogus catalyst.

I am expecting a "catch can" to catch the H2 and 02 that reforms back into liquid, but it isn't there. Also, If they are adding 02 to the air intake without separating it, they need to modify the 02 sensor to make sure the ECU/PCM doesn't add more fuel.

It just seems too "simple" to me. To appear this simple up front, I think it should have more explanation as to why it is so simple. The "simplicity" could be a selling point where they say "we have this advantage over our competition, blah blah blah yada yada yada ...", but they don't.

Question: When you interact with them in person, do they give you more information than what is on the website? For example, what happens in a typical installation?

CarloSW2

cfg83 06-14-2008 02:49 PM

88CRX -

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88CRX (Post 34713)
So you have an HHO in your car now. no differences huh... how much did it cost?

I believe that there might be merit, but only certain cars.

It would seem like something free for nothing, but i reality you have to check it often put water, clean etc. so it does not end up free...

I spent $500 about 2 years ago on a closeout system before he hiked his prices. It came with a scangauge, so I consider the cost to be about $350. I also did the "typical customer thing" and ignored the installation instructions. He told me time and again to install the *whole* system, but I only installed the hydrogen generator. He wanted me to install an 02 and Map sensor spoof, along with a fuel heater, but I didn't.

This summer I will have an EFIE (02 sensor voltage modifier) in place, and a DC motor controller to limit the Amperage (to control HHO production overrun). Still no fuel heater or Map sensor spoof. We'll see what happens.

It's definitely not for free. There is a lot of care and feeding involved. In his newsletter, he even claimed that it's not very efficient for hypermilers because we are driving small displacement vehicles under very low-load conditions. It's more appropriate for vehicles or stationary engines that are "doing work". We Hypermile because we have a choice on how and what we drive. A diesel engine at a worksite has more narrow load usage conditions. A trucker has to haul X-Amount of weight. He/she can't say "I'll haul the load, but you'll have to take everything out of the boxes in order for me to save weight".

This is all my opinion, YOMV.

CarloSW2

trikkonceptz 06-14-2008 03:24 PM

-cfg83

The setup is very simple ... you tap the intake after the MAP sensor avoiding such problems with air fuel ratios .. the only variable is the ECU leaning back the fuel once it realizes it needs less to combust in the chamber. They claim that the Hydrogen created is browns gas and other than the mineral water to start it, distilled water is all you need to maintain it. They claim there is no cleaning or maintenance involved once you install it.

Their only caution is that you install it below the level of the air intake. Also the unit has a pretty hefty air filter, but otherwise, simplicity it is.

Currently the Palm beach sherrif's office is putting 2 units in their cruisers to see what results they get. With the beating those cars take any positive change will be a good boost for their product.

Mind you they have video dyno tests of thir unit working on a vehicle with and without. They basically moved an established system into this test vehicle to see immeadiate results. The dyno confirmed improvements of 7 miles per gallon I think. They did the run with and empty tank adding 1 gallon of gas each time, once without the unit as baseline and a second time with it for their tests.

Who knows this may actually work, I figured you guys could sniff out a rat if it were to good to be true.

Formula413 06-14-2008 04:23 PM

I think people are saying "MAP" and meaning "MAF"

MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
MAF - Mass Air Flow sensor

I was just coming here to post up about the Hydro 4000, but I searched first and found this thread. The idea sounds very appealing, using wasted energy from the alternator to split water and create fuel. I would love to hear any first hand experience anyone has had with it. It really does sound too good to be true.

jamesqf 06-14-2008 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula413 (Post 34791)
...using wasted energy from the alternator to split water and create fuel.

What wasted energy from the alternator? The alternator only converts the mechanical energy of the engine to electricity, and it only does so when electricity is needed. If you take energy from the alternator to run this hydrogen generator, that will put more load on your engine, and decrease your fuel economy.

Formula413 06-14-2008 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 34833)
What wasted energy from the alternator? The alternator only converts the mechanical energy of the engine to electricity, and it only does so when electricity is needed. If you take energy from the alternator to run this hydrogen generator, that will put more load on your engine, and decrease your fuel economy.

But an alternator doesn't shut itself off when the battery is full, it keeps right on spinning. As opposed to say the air conditioner which has a clutch that engages when the A/C is turned on and disengages when the A/C is turned off. Unless there is some huge gap in my understanding of how an alternator works.


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