Hypothetical question : churchlady with an EV
 

Ok - So if a used EV was bought with 70% battery still left; and it had been charged ' normally " ( maybe 30% quick charging )
How long would the battery last if :
1) It was only powered on and driven for around 4 miles a week
2 ) And charged once every two weeks or so ( maybe once a week, but rarely )
3 ) But used perhaps twice a year to make a 130 mile trip to see family. ( So about 280 - 300 miles round trip.
4) And left to sit in the driveway in hot Texas sun.

If this were an ICE car, 'Aunt Bertha' would still be able to get in that car after 30 years of taking this same trip and still have a running vehicle, nevermind dry rot tires and such.

From what I undestand, churchlady Bertha would only be able to drive her car like that for a few years before needing to replace the several thousand dollar battery, despite the car being virtually new.
Correct ?
( thanks )

I wouldn't hold my breath for the batteries alone being the only problem. You know, some appliances also have such issue when they're stored with the batteries still charged, and the contacts become oxidized as they act like some sort of sacrificial anode.

Chevy Bolt would be fine. It conditions the battery at all times so long as battery charge is above 30%.

You can set the max charge limit so you don't have to mess around with sometimes plugging in and sometimes not. Leaving it plugged in will periodically maintain the 12v battery and more aggressively regulate the traction battery temperature.

In my mind, the EV serves 2 major purposes; short range in town trips, and long commutes within the limits of the battery range.

Your 'hypotetical' Aunt Bertha drives about as much as I do. My next nmber 3) will be to the Northwest Bug Run in March,

And if such long commutes happen within short timeframes, then an EV turns out to not be that great at all.

Well lipo in all forms tend to have a maximum average number of cycles before some sort of individual cell failure which appears to be mechanical and not directly related to level of charge/discharge. 30 years exceeds that number of cycles. Probability one pack could make that test and still be functioning but to have it apply to a specific occurrence is microscopicly tiny.

'how long'
 

The next door neighbor follows Tesla.
When those use a Tesla Supercharger station, the car provides telemetry back to Southern California where it's compiled and analyzed.
The word is that, battery life is a matter of charge cycles, and from what Tesla is observing, a Tesla pack will go for a million miles.
I know nothing about any other manufacturer's product.
So, for Tesla, anyway, the battery, if not abused, could go on to perform reasonably for the difference in mileage.

Age wears a battery too. A 15 year old battery that was kept on a shelf at 60% SoC will not perform as well as a brand new battery.

No wonder batteries often have an expiration date too.

I knew something tasted a bit off when I ate my last pack of batteries.
:D

'tasted'
 

The 'engineers' responsible for HOSTESS 'Twinkies' have volunteered to consult with the battery makers. So don't despair!

No enough info.
What is the age / cycle count of the battery once it has reached 70% capacity? (To have degraded to 70% it has to be very old or have lots of cycles)
What is the battery chemistry? (LFP has roughly double the cycle life of NCA)
What type of battery management system is in the car?

If Church Lady Bertha drives an ICE car 4 miles a week for decades she is going to spend many thousands of dollars maintaining her car because seals and rubber components break down with age and she will go through several exhaust systems from filling it with water every week then letting it set.

The muffler [or something] on my Metro agrees. It's taken to sounding like a WRX.

I remember seeing cars which were driven frequently, sometimes for a longer distance yet many other times the "housewife cycle", with the lower stream of the exhaust rotting. It's even more of an issue in my country due to the higher amount of ethanol added to the gasoline, and also the moisture in some places.

Ive seen various mentions of 1,000; 2000 & 5000 charge discharge cycles life on lifepo4 but I dont know the conditions of those lifetimes. 1000 cycles would be +/- 20 years at that useage and in Cali the battery is good for 10 -15 at least. I got ten so far in the Ranger.

My neighbor had a Leaf and would hang a cord out her window to charge it. ( sounds like a joke, eh ? )
I live in an apartment.
As you can imagine, this was completely impractical and dangerous.
Not only were people tripping on her cord, but it was a fire hazard.
Seeing this, I gave up entirely on the idea of owning a Leaf.
Even if this girl charging her Leaf with a cord went to go charge at an actual charge station, she would have had to be there for hours and rack up a huge bill, since it is by the minute and not by the Kw.
It was only recently that I saw another resident here with a Leaf as well, and found out some have quick charging

I had the wrong idea about batteries, and thought that cold was worse than extreme heat.
( When it is cold and the battery dies )
I live in Austin.
The car would sit in 110 degree sun all day

How woukd this degrade the battery ?

I keep sayin it, but I wouldn't get a Leaf if I were you. I'd get a Bolt (or possibly Spark).

The Bolt regulates battery temperature so long as it has 40+% charge.

With how few miles you drive, you could L2 charge at grocery stores or other places you've got to visit periodically.

I thought about snaking a cord out my apartment window, but I was on the 3rd floor. There are cord protector ramps that prevent tripping.

Seeing the selection of mini SUVs makes me want to grab a Sawzall.
They all have such a huge frontal area ( Leaf included ! )
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1678042222

Looking at prices on used Sparks and Bolts also shows that they are about twice as expensive as some of the Leaves i have seen.

I may be able to find a Spark from a private seller for cheap, but I have the impression that the cars are cheap.

used BEV prices
 

I recently perused three websites dealing with residual values of used BEVs.
Current used car prices are around 200% what the values would without the current market distortions.
If you delay your purchase, you may find that your currency goes a lot further.
And lenders are 'punishing' consumers buying 'older' BEVs.
You my find a 'newer' car with more range for no more than an older car with less, after pushing a pencil around on a piece of paper.
My personal strategy is to keep saving, while eyeing the market.
There are no finance 'fees' at my credit union. Just simple interest.
CDs used as collateral will continue to compound, offsetting the loan rate, with less than a 3% spread between what I'll pay, and what I'll get.
My net worth continues to grow, and the credit union has time deposits to work it's fractional banking magic, and at zero risk.
The only time I ever had a car mortgage was with GMAC, in 1982. That cost me 47% interest, when the 'finance fee' was factored in. Something never mentioned at the time of the purchase.

Having cash now is a bad investment as inflation continually devalues it.

Spending all cash and taking out the largest fixed rate mortgage you could get approved for about 4 years ago would have been the best move.

By pure coincidence, that's roughly what I ended up doing.

No way to predict the market accurately, but my sense is used car prices will continue to fall, and once manufacturers can meet BEV demand the used ones will further drop in price.

The Nissan Leaf has an air-cooled battery with a reputation for early failure. That is why they are cheap along with the limited range even when new.

I had a 2016 Chevy Spark EV. It was GM's compliance car made from 2014 - 2016 with only about 6,000 made. GM changed the batteries 2 or 3 times in that period so there is zero change of any aftermarket support in case of a battery failure. A replacement battery was $22,000 last I checked. (I have a theory that GM has 1 battery on the shelf to meet the legal requirement to offer warranty parts but priced so that nobody will actually buy it).

That said - I liked my Spark. It was a very fun car to drive around town if you can deal with the range. (82 miles EPA with my average about 95 miles summer and 65 miles winter.) It is also very quick with way too much torque unto that open differential which can result in massive torque steer and spinning tires up to about 30 mph. It is downright dangerous in the ran or snow on the stock tires.

My 2017 Bolt is fun like the Spark but bigger and better in about every way.

Testing of different battery chemistry. Cycled from 100% to 0% to 100% at 0.5C

https://www.onecharge.biz/wp-content...7240786736.jpg

From this paper:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...45-7111/abae37


The LFP batteries I'm buying for my Ambulance to RV conversion are LFP and rated for 80% Capacity after 4000 Cycles, 100% DOD @1C Rate. They come with a 10 year warranty. I'm buying 2 for 10.24 kWh storage
https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sk48v100/

'cash now'
 

Here's some context:
* 2016 KIA Soul EV, $9,980, with CARFAX
* $998 down
* 60-months @ 8.62%
* around $ 185/ month
* $ 8,982 unpaid balance
* Cost @ 8.62%, $9756
* Total out of pocket, $ 12,098
* Hidden 14.96% finance charge ( $ 1,343 ) never mentioned ( just like GMAC in 1982 )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Denton Teachers Credit Union 12-month Cd, @ 4.33% APY.
* $10,000 CD, rolled over, each maturity
* $ 998 down
* $ 158 / month, 60-months.
* $ 9, 537-paid, plus $998 down + $ 10,535 total paid.
* $ 555 cost of loan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* $2,360.78 in paid interest over 60-month term.
* $10,000 has become $ 12,360.78
* The loan cost $ 555, but I earned $ 2,360 at the same time, for a $ 1,586 net gain.
* $ 555 vs $ 1,117 w/ CARFAX
* CARFAX works out at 21.22% simple interest vs 6.19% at the credit union.
* @ 5% fractional reserve requirement, the credit union can lend out $100,000 to the local economy.

I'm always on the fence about financing cars. If the rates are extremely low, then generally the stock market will outperform the finance charges you're paying.

On the other hand, when you finance a car, the lender requires full coverage insurance, which is much more expensive than liability only.

That really depends on the car and the person.

My 2017 Bolt was valued at $24,000 when I purchased it. My insurance for the Bolt is $282 every 6 months. Of that $32 is Comprehensive and $89 is Collision so I would save $242 a year to drop full coverage and go to liability only. It seems quite foolish to me to risk $23,000 to save $242.

Now if I was an 18 year old with a bunch of tickets trying to insure a Corvette - that might add up to some decent savings to drop full coverage.

I generally don't own anything worth more than about $6k. With a $2k deductible, I'm risking $4k. I'd rather insurance not know about something stupid I did to my car, and just repair it myself.

If I owned a $40k Tesla, I'd spring for full coverage.

My 2004 Astro van is worth $6,000. Insurance for it is $113 every 6 months for full coverage. Comprehensive is $9 and Collision is $11 - each with a $100 deductible. So I'm spending $40 a year to not risk $5900

(I thought the Bolt had $1,000 deductibles but a quick check shows they are $100 and $250)

I just got the KBB value for my newest vehicle, the 2006 Acura TSX, and it booked at exactly $6,000.

You end up paying more on your insurance premiums making a claim, so there's a hidden cost that makes full coverage insurance less straight forward value calculation.

KBB
 

They're one of the entities I looked at recently for residual values on used cars.
The takeaway for the present state of the 'market' is that prices are extremely inflated, at about 200% of what they 'ought' to be.
I located my pre-'COVID' used BEV prices, and you can see how 'insane' the market is right now.
' pencils & paper, what a wonderful thing!'

Vehicle prices are massively inflated right now (but coming down). However, if you were to have a car totaled today and needed to replace it that is the price that would need to be paid - and that is the price the insurance company would pay out.

As someone who bought and drove a 24kWh Nissan Leaf and had a "church lady" copy me and bought one herself, I would not recommend one of those to anyone except the toughest ecomodders, although 4 miles a week might be the ticket for someone who wants a cheap car that needs no oil changes, etc.

As someone who has owned two Toyota hybrids, I don't think battery technology is always that bad. I don't think expecting at least 10 years out of a battery is unreasonable (assuming it degrades to 70% in that time). And depending on how far the car needs to be driven, an EV battery may last double or triple that. One car I really am interested in (just for the battery, I hate most everything else about the car) is the newer standard range Tesla Model 3. These come with LiFePO4 batteries that supposedly have even greater longevity than standard lithium ion batteries. And they also are non-flammable and charge more quickly than standard L-ion's.

But going back to the ICE, I've seen lots of people that don't have much of a clue of how a car works that have destroyed many engines. They never change the oil, never notice they had a coolant leak, never notice the dash lights and gauges, and they idle the heck out of the engine a lot of times in gear. A lot of these "church ladies" and such will go through cars every few years just because they have no idea of how to take care of one. At least an EV is a bit more idiot-proof as there is much less maintenance needed, except things that are more obvious like bad winshield wipers and tires.

In fact today I was outside and a young neighbor lady came up to me and my wife with some car questions about her new-to-her car. I checked her tires, two were over 50psi, and it was low on coolant. She had no clue about how to check the oil or tire pressure or things like that. I didn't check the oil because the engine was running, so let's hope that's ok. I did show her how to do all of that herself and even gave her a tire pressure gauge. She did ask what to put in the windshield wash fluid reservoir, so I tried to tell her without sounding like a smart aleck.

Hate to to telll you but lifepo4 uses a flammable organic solvent as part of the electrolyte. Charge them to more than 4.2v and they vent that solvent. Can be exciting.

I'm no expert, but they are marketed as "non-flammable." Seeing how their maximum voltage is 3.6V, far away from +4.2V, they seem to me to be safer than not only your typical nickel maganese cobalt type lithium ion batteries but even gasoline. If you have a car fire, you'd be better off with an EV with LiFePO4 batteries than just about anything else.

How many LiFePO4 Teslas have caught on fire? How does that compare to other EV's that have caught on fire?

My stepmother for instance doesn't seem to have much clue of how a car works, but she can ask me, my father and her eldest son about it, yet often I am the one she asks about cars. Early last year, once she went back to Florianópolis from a trip to Bagé where one of her brothers lives, she was mostly concerned about the battery discharging, so when she went to put the engine to work a little I explained to her the "housewife cycle" and how the oil pressure should also be taken as a matter of concern after a car was stored for a long time. But her cars tend to last long, and she only got her most recent one because her eldest son managed to persuade her to get a newer one. My father, who had a slightly larger car, kept my stepmother's previous car, which at least has automatic transmission. My knees are not something to write home about, and my father also has his fair share of damage to his legs due to motorcycle crashes before I was born, and now he seems to understand why I prefer automatics :D

When it comes to EVs, an engine not being so maintenance-intensive is not so much of an idiotproofing at all, because some folks may neglect other maintenance routine checks more often. My stepmother for instance, 10 years ago she was quite impressed by claims that EVs would decrease the need for servicing to the point of nearly bankrupting the service and spare parts departments of dealers which are in fact the major source of revenue. Then I had to explain why it was quite an unaccurate claim, because the engine is not the only complex component which would require servicing in order to keep a car working properly.

Non flammable? I got a bridge in NY, NY I could sell you.

Seem to be confusing solar bulk storage with vehicles. 388v pack DNE maximum divided by 96 series cells in a 16kwh Volt pack is what voltage per cell? Hint: more than 3.6.

Depending on your fire origin criteria, many, but from assorted causes. Remember the whole recall on 66kwh Bolt packs but spontaneous random burns are rare.

Sounds like you're confusing the NMC Teslas with the LiFePO4s.

Nope, I understand the various chemistry options, and their flammability prospects pretty well

You're the only one I've ever heard say LiFePO4's are flammable. There are videos online of these types of cells being crushed, punctured, overcharged, overheated, shorted, etc. and, unlike NMC, they don't ever go up in flames at all, ever. What am I missing here?

On the other hand NiMH are considered non-flammable, but I've heard of at least one guy who was able to get them to catch on fire in his Toyota Prius.

EDIT:
So it looks like you're right, that they do have a flammable electrolyte. But according to this article of tests:

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

You can expect EV batteries to easily last 10 years as that is the warranty on many of them. Automakers don't like warranty expenses and a failure rate of even 1% gets the CEO's attention at my employer.

BTW - CARB is standardizing EV battery requirements as part of their Advanced Clear Car II program. It will start at the 10 year / 150K miles and 70% of range and gradually increase to 80% of range by 2030.

Also the CARB plan does not completely ban sales of vehicles with an ICE in 2035. The percentages are ZEV OR PHEV

https://dieselnet.com/images/n/2022/08carb2.png