inline driveshaft motor?
 

I am interested in adding an electric motor to my (4x4) truck.

Can electric motors (such as the typical Advanced 9") be mounted cut inline to the existing OE driveshaft that is in use by a ICE, and power as needed?
Would need to have a double shaft. Its CE shaft strength might be the limiter?

I believe the rpm isn't a problem as these motors can spin up to 6k rpm?

(or redirect to existing thread)

Thanks

An ADC 9" should be fine as long as the driveshaft angles and mounting are solid. Here's an example of a similar setup. I hesitate to recommend it from the POV of cost in terms of engine assist for automatics because it's only reducing engine operating efficiency in that context. The only payback is if the vehicle's owner has a manual transmission and can operate on battery power alone instead of using their engine at low load AFAIK.

EDIT to keep OP's panties out of a wad.

I believe this is what Coyote X is doing with his metro hybrid

I'm no mechanic but I do work with machines etc. My guess is that it would not be easy in a fwd car. The easiest place (and not necessarily the right place) would be where the starter is. But the motor speed, due to the gearing, would end up phenomenal to say the least. Another option is to fit it between the gearbox and the engine. Space limitations apply big time here but it would be direct to the gearbox and the speed of the motor and gearbox could match reasonably easily.
All i can think of after that is to fit motors to the back wheels. The weight of the wheels then goes up of course, not to mention the problems with sticking two motors in the mud and water every day......
I briefly thought about having a drive motor connected through the alternator belt. Power would be limited by the strength of the belt and there would be losses. As Roflwaffle said, it would only serve to offset engine losses. But thats no small thing either is it? The only advantage of this is that it would be relatively easy to install and the real work would be in managing the whole package electrically. Beyond me but doable i'm sure.

ollie

I am going to read the whole thread now.

I've thought of this from time to time, cutting a hole through the bed of my truck and mounting an assist motor back there. It'd be huge fun, but it'd be huge fun to have a few thousand bucks in the bank, too. And since I don't have that, I can't have the motor either.

Dangit.

EDIT to keep OP's panties out of a wad.

roflwaffle, thanks for the link and input. I will read it and check back.

Guys, the thread is about installing an electric motor inline to a (truck) driveshaft.
Geo comments don't belong here.

Thanks

Pretty snappy for someone with seven posts.

What does it matter if it's a truck or a geo if the concept is the same?

I edited my posts, you can carry on. :o

:turtle:

Meh, installing it in between the transmission output shaft and wheels, be it on a CV or a driveshaft, isn't a huge difference. Actually, coupling it to the output shaft instead of inline can be a lot more useful in terms of the available power at whatever speed. An inline motor will have the same gearing as the rear end, which means it probably won't develop decent power until high speeds, ~40-65mph depending on the gearing, which kinda offsets it's usefulness at replacing low load/low speed/low efficiency engine operation. Coupling it to the output shaft lets us optimize power output and motor efficiency via gearing, but it's also more complex.

Netgain has some double-ended shafts specifically designed EXACTLY for adding in-line with a truck rear driveshaft.

They even have a black box (the EMIS) that connects to your OBDII that will control the motor added to an automatic transmission truck to make it into a hybrid.

Check out their motors and the EMIS at their web page:
TransWarP Motor Information

-Ben

there was a thread not too long ago, someone wanted to couple a motor to the front driveshaft of the 4WD transfer case. It would work just fine. Many enthusiasts have driven home as FWD trucks, so the strength and drive-ability is there. Your truck is 4WD, so that would work, but you'd be limited to 2WD from then on, not something I could give up. But you're from So-Cal? Do you use the 4WD for offroading?

do some checking on the Future Truck Competition, some of the teams that have won did motors inline with the drive shaft, a team from Madison WI a few years back got 55mpg out of a Ford Explorer and the rules of of the competition give you more points for using off the shelf parts instead of custom made parts.

I wonder if there is room to do a chain drive between the motor and the drive shaft.

There's usually a fair amount of space between the bed and drive shaft, but surely not enough to put in a 9" WarP or anything like that.

The other problem you'd face there is with suspension. You'd have to have a 2-piece driveshaft, with one piece being hung to the frame so that it didn't move with the suspension, to keep the chain from binding/skipping.

I was throwing around some ideas with with the guys a while back about doing a hybrid pickup truck.

One idea involved a motor or engine in the BED of the truck with a chain or belt running down to the driveshaft.

I'm surprised on one mentioned Mikes Insight with the fifth wheel.

Mikes Insight - MIMA Honda Insight Modified Integrated Motor Assist

It's written so anyone can understand it so be patient. There's a LOT of good info there. Check out the link below too while you're at it.... in fact you might want to read it first.

http://www.99mpg.com/Projectcars/ewheelforanyvehicl

I'd say this is pretty much what you're looking at. He has a full-size Chevy truck, so the motor would probably clear the bed (or at worst, maybe he'd have to put a little hump in the bed over the motor), and beyond that, it's a question of turning the driveshaft into two driveshafts with the motor between and the various ends hung so they're at the correct angles.

As far as freewheeling the motor when it's not being used, I remember from the EVDL that there's no problem doing this as long as you don't overspeed it. You can check with Jim Husted on the EVDL, but I'm pretty sure that the shafts on the ADC can handle the torque from the engine.

Did I miss it or has anyone considered making the front wheels electrically driven? I mean you already have half the system in place. I'm no expert but it seems like you could do it.

I've tried to encourage people to hook up an electric motor to a CRV too. It would have to be a non-realtime AWD model though I think. Or not, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong... nicely though. Don't be a ****ing **** or I'll report you in a heartbeat.

Yeah, we explore that in another thread for this member. I think that's still the best way to go.

The CR-V has an electrically operated clutch pack at the rear. If somebody could figure out a way to either remove or permanently lock up that clutch pack, they could then run the rear off of a motor. (A bit more of a clearance problem under the CR-V than under a pickup, though.)

Clev, that post that you quoted of mine, I was referring to solid mounting the motor to the frame, and using a chain to connect the motor to the driveshaft.

What you were suggesting in that same post, is basically the equivalent of using the e-motor for a carrier bearing. This is fine, as long as the armature can stand up to the driveshaft's speeds and torque. Remember, that driveshaft gets going REALLY fast. Also, it would require less of a HP rating, and thus, a smaller e-motor, if it were chain driven with a lower gear ratio, such as the same as 2nd gear in a truck, which would still allow for most low-speed city driving scenarios, and be more efficient for said purpose, due to less weight and power requirement.

Another example of the emis inline drive shaft mounted motor: http://www.evalbum.com/img/2098/2098a.jpg

Strong insecurity in this one...


Christ, if you geared a motor to run at effective "second gear" speeds, wouldn't that make it (the motor) rev to hell and back @ 60?

Sorry, I must not have read closely enough. I read enough of your post to think you and I were on the same page. :)

I guess the only problem with the chain-driven smaller motor is that you'd need a disconnect or overrunning clutch to keep from overspeeding it at freeway speeds.

What the?.... I admit I'm feeling a bit clueless on that one but does that go in a bimmer? I have got to look at that closer.

It's cool, it really did apply to both, though it was more directed at being chain driven. Either way, you've got to have a 2 piece driveshaft to pull it off properly, or a very elaborate variable mount system, which just makes it not even worth it.

I was thinking more like an overrunning gear hub, like you'd find on most 20" and larger bikes with a single speed rear tire. This way, the motor couldn't be used for braking, but in the interest of "cheap", regenerative braking is out the window anyway.

Yeah, that's kind what I was getting at. It doesn't look like Netgain did anything special to that except bolt on a U-joint at each end. (The EMIS box is actually the motor control bit; looks like they use a standard Warp motor.)

One person on the EVDL has two ADC 8" motors belted together, and another had three 9" motors mounted end-to-end. In both cases, the motor closest to the transmission must handle the torque from the other motors. In both of these cases, the standard ADC shaft was sufficient. There might be a slight possibility of concern in the case of using the 4WD low range for something like pulling a stump, but even then, half of the torque is going to the front wheels.

Yes, my particular application has a manual, however.
Is the loss of efficiency you refer to WRT an unlocked torque converter?

Thanks

Thats the scale and scope of application I was looking for.
Thanks

Do you mean you wouldn't have much low speed torque? You could still have 4-wheel drive technically, albeit not effective at low speed, correct?

It looks like I have to drive it rearward through the transfer case in order to benefit from the gearing advantage for low speed torque. Yes, I would be giving up my 4-wheel drive capabilities (which you are right, I don't use).

Thanks for input.

Will do, thanks!

Packaging inline for the full size truck isn't so much of an issue. Wether or not they could be effective without any gearing beyond a differentail, and survive inline a drive shaft was.

At this point I am only interested in pursuing the inline drive shaft applications afforded by a 4-wheel drive.

Thanks

Again, thats what I'm looking for as far as strength and free-wheeling, thanks.

Your reference incorporates a bed mount with chain drive I believe? There is room for a straight inline driveshaft install. I am concerned about allowing to move with the suspension, verses a rigid frame mount.

You'll end up having to mount the e-motor about the same as you would a divorce mount xfer case, which involves a 2 piece driveshaft. In your case, you'd be using the e-motor as a carrier bearing between the two pieces of the driveshaft, with the motor installed directly to the frame, and the second section of drive shaft having universal joints and a steeper dive angle from the last output to the pinion yoke than it normally would in OEM configuration.

If I were doing this project, I'd probably get the output shafts from a VW transaxle, for the flanges, then get the CV joints that match them. Put the flanges on each shaft of the motor, then put the CV joints on the ends of the 2 driveshafts that mount up to each side of the motor, then mount the motor to the frame using a solid mount rail, something like a transmission cross member.

This is exactly the application I am talking about.

It now seems I have determined that this application isn't for low speed use.
It needs to be geared down to get my heavy vehicle moving. Looks like my only option here is driving in backwards through the transfer case.

Thanks

Trying to follow. Which end of the truck are you doing this mount, up front? And which direction are you driving, front axle or rear transfer case?

Only if you use it. The bearings should be able to take high speeds, just make sure it isn't on or else it'll grenade.

It'sa function of how engines operate. Engine efficiency, generally speaking, is relatively poor at lower loads, and tends to increase w/ higher loads. If the engine is making power, and we add power from an electric motor, then engine load will drop and efficiency will probably drop too. There are situations, depending on engine load/speed where engine efficiency won't drop much or at all, but especially at lower speeds, outside of when the vehicle is accelerating, using an electric will probably decrease engine efficiency.

On the flip side, since low load is where an engine operates inefficiently, and this corresponds to low power, w/ a manual trans and a sufficiently powerful motor/battery combo, we can run on just the electric motor's output and only use the engine where it's efficiency is maximized.

Course, like I mentioned before, this brings up another problem, namely stretching a motor's power output over whatever gearing the rear end has, and since optimizing engine efficiency tends to include taller gearing, we may end up having motor power peak at a speed much too high to be useful for low speed/low load operation. There are exceptions, for instance I have an old Mercedes that tops out at ~76mph or something, so peak power at ~38mph is fine, but for other vehicles with taller rear ends, especially larger ones, having peak power at ~50-70mph isn't desirable in the context of using a hybrid conversion in a cost efficient manner. Gearing the motor up would help, but that introduces another set of problems. If ya want specifics LMK.