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bbjsw10 08-04-2008 09:04 PM

Kill switch how-to
 
I installed an EOC switch today. Here is how I did it, should work on any 89-94 as far as I know.

Supplies needed:
1. momentary switch normally open
2. relay use a good one like Bosch 5 pole 30Amp
3. inline fuse holder capable of 20 amps
4. 15 amp fuse for holder
5. 16 gauge wire use no smaller than this or will over heat
6. ring terminal for grounding momentary switch
7. nylon ties
8. wire loom
9. (2) 1/4" male spade connectors for 16 gauge wire
10. (4) 1/4" female spade connectors used to connect wires to relay
11. Solder and soldering gun a must for underhood wires. Don't want to break down because of bad connections, Do you?

Begin by disconnecting battery. Pull 15 amp injector fuse in under hood fuse panel. Cut 2 sections of wire roughly 6 feet in length. Solder a spade connector onto fuse holder, and one section of above wire to other side of holder, mark this wire with a piece of tape at end. Solder another spade onto second wire used as return from relay. Run these 2 wires into underdash to mount relay. You will need the momentary switch grounded on one side, this will be to trigger relay. The other side of switch goes to relay. Diagram below. Mount your switch wherever it is easy to get to, I used my shifter knob. Once you have all connections made plug the fused wire into fuse panel and the unfused wire in as well. Pic below. Reconnect battery. Install fuse, match the size it calls for 15 Amp on my car. Start car, verify it runs. Press button verify it dies out.

To use while coasting shift to neutral for coast, hit button. Enjoy. Bump start vehicle, no key needed. Just release button, ease out in clutch in a higher gear, do not pop clutch, but do not overly slip either. Takes practice but saves alot of fuel. Questions just ask.

Edit: 85 and 86 are reversed on my diagram. These pins are the control side and reversible. One ground, One power. Makes no difference on the position of these 2.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c.../relaycopy.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...terbutton3.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...terbutton2.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...fterbutton.jpg

dcb 08-04-2008 09:35 PM

That's a nice writeup bbjsw10,

I had an injector kill switch on a metro, problem was it wouldn't shut off cleanly. I switched to the camshaft pickup trick (disables ignition) and it is a much cleaner transition to off and restarting, and maybe I can reuse that fuel on relight :thumbup: . You could kill both too with the right combination of relays, that would be more like what happens when the key is turned off.

bbjsw10 08-04-2008 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 50928)
That's a nice writeup bbjsw10,

I switched to the camshaft pickup trick (disables ignition) You could kill both too with the right combination of relays

Thanks

This camshaft pickup you are talking about what is it and where? Would my 91 have it? I have been wanting to do something like this and make my switch control both relays at same time.
EDIT: I looked in service manual, has camshaft position sensor with 2 wires a ign. ref. in and ign. ref. high would these be what you are talking about? Couldn't I just use a second relay to kill power to coil?

dcb 08-04-2008 11:00 PM

I think those are the right wires, coming out the side of the distributor. I tried the coil lead, but the current still found a path through the relay, oops, LOL :)

Note, you can interrupt either wire. In my rig the connections are currently exposed (I'm lazy in some ways) and the engine won't die when it rains with the kill switch :D

cfg83 08-05-2008 02:24 AM

bbjsw10 -

Thanks! I'm gonna save this post for careful study.

CarloSW2

Raysp30 08-05-2008 01:53 PM

Difference between Injector Switch and Fuel Pump Switch?
 
What's the ideal way to cut the engine off using a switch?

It seems like a lot of people are opting for the Injector switch. I read a very easy DIY post that cuts into the fuel pump wire to act as a theft deterrent. Would this also work?

bbjsw10 08-05-2008 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysp30 (Post 51125)
What's the ideal way to cut the engine off using a switch?

It seems like a lot of people are opting for the Injector switch. I read a very easy DIY post that cuts into the fuel pump wire to act as a theft deterrent. Would this also work?

I use my to do EOC. That is whenever I have a chance to coast I use it to "kill" engine, then bump start in 5th gear at speeds as low as 5mph.

I don't like the idea of shutting off fuel pump to kill engine. The injector is designed for that pressure. Would work awesome for theft deterrent.

MechEngVT 08-06-2008 01:18 PM

If an injector kill doesn't shut off the engine quickly or cleanly it's either not completely killing the injectors or your injectors are leaky.

I would hesitate to use an ignition-only kill on an EFI car because that means your injectors will be spraying fuel through multiple crank revolutions with no ignition to burn it up. This can cause oil dilution, scoring of the cylinder walls, and wasted fuel. Even golf carts use a fuel shut off to kill the engine because the ignition ground causes the fuel/oil issues. Of course you could use BOTH an injector and ignition kill (like the key switch)...that would do the trick.

bbjsw10 08-06-2008 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEngVT (Post 51400)
If an injector kill doesn't shut off the engine quickly or cleanly it's either not completely killing the injectors or your injectors are leaky.

I would hesitate to use an ignition-only kill on an EFI car because that means your injectors will be spraying fuel through multiple crank revolutions with no ignition to burn it up. This can cause oil dilution, scoring of the cylinder walls, and wasted fuel. Even golf carts use a fuel shut off to kill the engine because the ignition ground causes the fuel/oil issues. Of course you could use BOTH an injector and ignition kill (like the key switch)...that would do the trick.

These are the reasons why I did an injector kill instead of ignition kill. I don't like the idea of unburnt gas sitting there. This how-to is on injector kill, that way the fuel gets burnt up then engine dies, no oil getting in oil or burning. FIRE BAD!!

dcb 08-06-2008 05:16 PM

It isn't that the injectors are leaky, it is that there is a layer of fuel on the inside of the intake manifold, it is a normal state of affairs.

That fuel is absolutely not usable if you "dry out" the manifold every time you kill the engine as the mixture is so far off there is no real useable power in it, and it causes the engine to stumble to a halt and it frequently relights when you didn't mean it to.


If you turn off the ignition, the engine shuts down right away. That fuel doesn't really go anywhere anytime soon if the throttle is closed and the engine isn't turning, so it is still there waiting for use when you restart the engine.

I do not know that oil dilution is much of a concern, I know planes would add fuel to the oil just prior to shutdown in winter and it would evaporate out when the engine is up to temp, and I don't know that much, if any, fuel is actually getting into the oil from sitting in the manifold between pulses.

MechEngVT 08-07-2008 10:49 AM

dcb;

In multi-port fuel injected engines there is not a substantial amount of fuel sitting in the manifold. Port fuel injectors spray into the intake port onto the closed intake valve. The only way for this fuel to get into the manifold would be as it evaporates and then exhaust reverts out the intake valve at initial intake valve opening it may push some fuel vapor up the intake runner, but then the piston will draw this vapor back down the runner into the cylinder as the cylinder fills.

When an engine shuts down it doesn't instantly stop. It spins down to a stop over time as engines have substantial rotational inertia. When I EOC my truck I have to key-off for almost 2 seconds (from 2000 rpm or below) because after just 1 second if I key back on the engine still has enough speed to restart itself. At just 1000 rpm an engine rotates more than 16 times in one second meaning that each cylinder goes through at least 8 intake cycles. If you kill your ignition but not your fuel injection you will be injecting enough fuel onto your intake valve to be sucked into the cylinder for about 8 combustion cycles per cylinder that will not be burned before the engine stops. This fuel will wash oil off the cylinder walls, dilute the oil, and some of it will go out the exhaust as unburned HC and/or will collect in the catalytic converter where it will oxidize and heat up your cat. The fuel does not just "sit" in your intake manifold because your engine still pumps air as it is spinning down to a stop. The spinning doesn't stop instantly, so if you kill just your spark the fueling continues as the engine spinning continues even though you don't feel the jerkiness of sputtering combustion.

You are correct that any fuel in the oil will light off as the oil temperature heats up. This also takes time at temperature and if someone is frequently EOCing and minimizing engine load rather than P&G the oil may not get very hot and may not stay hot long enough to light off frequent additions of fuel from a power-on shutdown. Bottom line: it's fine if you want to cut the ignition to shut off your engine, but for pete's sake cut the fueling as well!

Raysp30 08-08-2008 02:00 PM

Trying to find injector fuse...
 
Can't seem to find anything that would be the fuse I'm looking for. There is no fuel injector fuse or a PGMFI fuse. Anybody able to help locate on an 89 crx?

If not, anybody have other ideas for a good kill switch method? The only one I'm still able to find that I know I can do is the fuel pump, and I don't really want to cut that one.

bbjsw10 08-08-2008 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysp30 (Post 52057)
Can't seem to find anything that would be the fuse I'm looking for. There is no fuel injector fuse or a PGMFI fuse. Anybody able to help locate on an 89 crx?

If not, anybody have other ideas for a good kill switch method? The only one I'm still able to find that I know I can do is the fuel pump, and I don't really want to cut that one.

Use the wires on 87a and 30 on your Injector resistor power feed. Will work the same way. I ended up changing mine to this after writing how-to. I believe the injector resistor on your car should be close to brake booster and look like this.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...w10/f728_1.jpg

Raysp30 08-08-2008 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbjsw10 (Post 52126)
Use the wires on 87a and 30 on your Injector resistor power feed. Will work the same way. I ended up changing mine to this after writing how-to. I believe the injector resistor on your car should be close to brake booster and look like this.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...w10/f728_1.jpg

I think I see what you mean. Just cut into the red wire (power feed) and plug those into the relay? Do I still need to use the inline fuse with this setup? Appreciate the help.

bbjsw10 08-08-2008 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysp30 (Post 52159)
I think I see what you mean. Just cut into the red wire (power feed) and plug those into the relay? Do I still need to use the inline fuse with this setup? Appreciate the help.

I would atleast use some type of fuse. Better safe than sorry.

Impulse 08-09-2008 06:07 PM

You guys should use a spdt relay and a momentary switch to disable the ignition, fused off of the igntion at or near the ignition switch itself. Pin 86 to the momentary switch, then the switch to ground, cut the ignition wire open, pins 30 and 85 will go to the wire coming off your ignition tumbler itself, and pin 87a goes to the ignition wire going down towards the car. Doing it this way, the relay ign connections are already fused through the factory wiring, but you should put a fuse between the chassis ground the momentary switch. If the relay ever fails it will rest at normally closed, and you ignition will still be connected, plus there are not wires through the firewall. If you guys like I can give people tech support and wires colors for your vehicles because I have access to it since I am a 12 volt installer. Just shoot me a pm. Just my .02 cents.

bbjsw10 08-10-2008 12:02 AM

The way I have this drawn up on schematic it goes back to a normally closed position. I would not cut into wire by ignition switch shuts off more than you need to shut off. Like your ecm and odometer all in one shot, and the all important ABS system and airbags. This is why I would not cut ignition off at switch with relay. Plus need odometer to figure mileage. I have installed also since 1995 and was Install manager at local ABC warehouse for about a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impulse (Post 52336)
Pin 86 to the momentary switch, then the switch to ground, cut the ignition wire open, pins 30 and 85 will go to the wire coming off your ignition tumbler itself, and pin 87 goes to the ignition wire going down towards the car.

FYI: the way you describe you have the relay connected on normal open contacts. 87a is normal closed.

Raysp30 08-10-2008 05:47 PM

Can't seem to get it right...
 
I had a relay from Radioshack that had 4 pins on it, no 87a. I hooked it up by splicing into the red wire on my fuel injector resistor. Once all the wires were in place I tried starting the car and it wouldn't turn over.

I found a different relay that was supposed to have the 87a pin on it, but there was only a stub where the pin should have been, and the packaging on that relay had never been opened.

Is there a 2nd wire I need to splice into to make this work?

Gregte 08-10-2008 07:54 PM

Regarding the concerns of cutting the ignition and then having a few extra cycles of fuel injected, carbureted cars do it every time you turn off the key switch.

bbjsw10 08-10-2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysp30 (Post 52448)
I had a relay from Radioshack that had 4 pins on it, no 87a. I hooked it up by splicing into the red wire on my fuel injector resistor. Once all the wires were in place I tried starting the car and it wouldn't turn over.

I found a different relay that was supposed to have the 87a pin on it, but there was only a stub where the pin should have been, and the packaging on that relay had never been opened.

Is there a 2nd wire I need to splice into to make this work?

Get a relay from autozone or advance auto and preferably a Bosch relay. It will have to have all 5 like listed on the parts needed list. That or find a 4 pin normally closed relay.

Impulse 08-11-2008 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbjsw10 (Post 52383)
The way I have this drawn up on schematic it goes back to a normally closed position. I would not cut into wire by ignition switch shuts off more than you need to shut off. Like your ecm and odometer all in one shot, and the all important ABS system and airbags. This is why I would not cut ignition off at switch with relay. Plus need odometer to figure mileage. I have installed also since 1995 and was Install manager at local ABC warehouse for about a year.



FYI: the way you describe you have the relay connected on normal open contacts. 87a is normal closed.

Thank you for the correction :D

Clev 08-15-2008 04:08 PM

Can you guys suggest the proper way to do this for me? I have a '90 Accord (PGM-FI), and I coast and engine-brake down a 17.1 mile continuous decline in the morning. I tried leaving the car in 5th and turning off the key this morning. It worked great (kept me at about the right speed, the vacuum brakes still worked, etc.), but then I figured out that my speedo and odo were dead during the descent, so I can't compute mileage!

I'm thinking an actual switch to kill the injectors, but leave the ignition on. Any suggestions?


Thanks.

Tim

bbjsw10 08-15-2008 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clev (Post 53637)
I have a '90 Accord (PGM-FI), and I coast and engine-brake down a 17.1 mile continuous decline in the morning

A engine-braking situation normally shuts off the injectors on its own, "Deceleration Fuel Cutoff" leaving key on and coasting down that hill in 5th or 4th would kill injectors. I could be wrong but I know most fuel injected cars do this. Mine does and it is a 91 Metro I am sure a Honda would be the same a little more advanced than my car is.

Clev 08-15-2008 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbjsw10 (Post 53676)
A engine-braking situation normally shuts off the injectors on its own, "Deceleration Fuel Cutoff" leaving key on and coasting down that hill in 5th or 4th would kill injectors. I could be wrong but I know most fuel injected cars do this. Mine does and it is a 91 Metro I am sure a Honda would be the same a little more advanced than my car is.

My only problem is that a) there are some times when I coast in neutral down this hill, and b) there are a few times where the car slows enough that I think the injectors are starting to kick in again, and c) the main relay is a weak point in this car, and I don't want to overstress it or my ECU by constantly turning the key on and off.

With the key off on today's experiment, I was able to go all the way down the 17.1 mile hill, shifting easily from neutral to 5th, and with instant smooth power delivery by turning the keyswitch back on for the 4 seconds I needed to accelerate over the one short uphill about halfway down. And of course, with the car in fifth, when I turned the key back on, it instantly came back to life without so much as a hiccup.

KingsX 08-16-2008 11:38 PM

Hi, I wonder if someone would be kind enough to clarify something for me. I'm no installer and I'm having trouble keeping this how-to clear enough to start the project. Even a napkin schematic would help. Anyway, the two major points I'm stumbling on is 1) What is meant by "jumper from 30"? If I'm already getting power from fuse block, it leaves no room for a jumper wire. And 2) Do I need a three pin switch or just two... and does it need to be rated at 30 amps or will a small one do since there's a relay? Thanks very much for the write up— I'm sure for the electrically inclined, it's all that's needed but for the "special" among us, a bit of clarification might help.

bbjsw10 08-17-2008 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsX (Post 53928)
What is meant by "jumper from 30"?


Do I need a three pin switch or just two... and does it need to be rated at 30 amps or will a small one do since there's a relay?

At 30 you can hook a small second wire in with the main wire from the fuse block, does not have to be a large wire at all. It is for the "control" side of relay very low amperage.

The switch can be a very tiny 2 post 1 side to ground and 1 to the relay.

Relays hardly draw anything amperage wise on the control side of it, that is the reason for relays. Large capacity with low current switches.

I can possibly get a close up picture for you of the relay how I did it, if this does not clear it up for you.

And Welcome to Ecomodders.

KingsX 08-17-2008 04:06 PM

Awesome! Seriously, now I'm at least headed in the right direction. I really appreciate you taking the time to even do the write up. I just have no practical experience with relays so I'd rather not render my Metro inop while I muddled through it. Thanks for the rapid reply and the warm welcome too.

btw- I lived in Findlay several years ago. I couldn't help but notice that detail under your avatar.

Cheers!

Patrick

bbjsw10 08-17-2008 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsX (Post 54019)
btw- I lived in Findlay several years ago. I couldn't help but notice that detail under your avatar.

You left in time to escape the flood then.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...22-2007-38.jpg

KingsX 08-18-2008 03:02 PM

Yeah, I moved long before the waters rose. Sounds like nothing was spared in the Midwest that year. I'm on higher ground now so I just have different things to be concerned with.

Thanks for the how-to. I finished it yesterday and it works like a charm. I now wished I'd either used a lighted switch or mounted it on the shift knob as you did. I assume you just took a drill press to the knob for routing the leads down and out through the boot.
That may be next weeks proj.

bbjsw10 08-18-2008 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsX (Post 54219)
mounted it on the shift knob as you did. I assume you just took a drill press to the knob for routing the leads down and out through the boot.

I actually drilled 2 holes one in top and another from low on front and made them intersect, that way avoiding threads of shifter.

Xringer 08-18-2008 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbjsw10 (Post 53676)
A engine-braking situation normally shuts off the injectors on its own, "Deceleration Fuel Cutoff" leaving key on and coasting down that hill in 5th or 4th would kill injectors. I could be wrong but I know most fuel injected cars do this. Mine does and it is a 91 Metro I am sure a Honda would be the same a little more advanced than my car is.

My 1999 Honda CRV coasts right into 'Fuel Cutoff' when I take my foot off the gas on a good hill (while in 4th or 5th gear).
The Scangauge2 starts displaying 9999.9 MPG. :thumbup:

If I'm coasting down a smaller hill and engine braking is just too much,
Or, I feel the need for speed!! Just shifting into neutral and
letting the engine idle nets me around 50 to 70 MPG while coasting at 30-40 MPH..

Coasting while in Fuel-cutoff is super simple and can be done without doing any wiring.. :)


That SC2 is a great little device for showing how much gas you are wasting going up hills too fast.
I've been using it with the Cruise Control for highway driving.
When I see the display dropping down around 20 MPG going up a hill,
I back off with the CC down button. On the down hill part, I use the
CC up button to apply more speed until I see the MPG hit a peak,
or until I hit the safe speed limit.

I love good long hills where I can hit 65 MPH while getting 40 to 70 MPG..

dentprone 08-22-2008 10:43 PM

Thanks for the info, bbjsw10, I'm following the thread closely. Impulse, as an installer, have you run across the sockets for those Bosch style relays? I have used those to make some of my installations a little cleaner.

bbjsw10 08-22-2008 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dentprone (Post 55498)
Thanks for the info, bbjsw10, I'm following the thread closely.

Your welcome. :)

bennelson 08-22-2008 11:13 PM

Ultimate KILL-SWITCH SHIFTER!
 
I was lucky enough to find a very slick control knob at the junk-yard today.

It is a joystick from a forklift - cast aluminum with TWO momentary one switches built it.

Perfect for both a kill switch AND a push-button start. Plus, it gives the feel of a jet-fighter!

Sorry no photo. My camera batteries like to die at exactly the wrong time.
Will post one later.


Edit: Hey, just remembered I have a web cam!

http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...12194632510001
http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...icture/web.jpg

Cheaper than THIS and at a much better price.

bbjsw10 08-22-2008 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennelson (Post 55501)
I was lucky enough to find a very slick control knob at the junk-yard today.

It is a joystick from a forklift - cast aluminum with TWO momentary one switches built it.

Perfect for both a kill switch AND a push-button start. Plus, it gives the feel of a jet-fighter!

Sorry no photo. My camera batteries like to die at exactly the wrong time.
Will post one later.

I gotta see this, sounds pretty bad-a$$. :D What ride you putting it in?

bennelson 08-23-2008 07:54 AM

Planning on using this stick for a kill-switch setup in my 4-banger Chevy S10 pickup truck.

bbjsw10 08-23-2008 08:52 AM

Just saw the picture, I WANT ONE TOO!!! My car is starting to look like a shuttle might as well have a flight stick..

MetroMPG 08-31-2008 01:30 PM

I should do a writeup of my ignition coil kill switch method. It would be interesting to compare the two methods to see if there's any difference in the way the car stops/restarts.

Will 08-31-2008 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennelson (Post 55501)
I was lucky enough to find a very slick control knob at the junk-yard today.

I have GOT to get me one of those!!!!!!!!!

Clev 08-31-2008 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 57706)
I should do a writeup of my ignition coil kill switch method. It would be interesting to compare the two methods to see if there's any difference in the way the car stops/restarts.

Would the fuel system keep pumping in fuel if the car is moving in gear with the ignition killed?


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