Large cars
 

I got up the courage to post this after reading the threads about pickups and SUV's. I have looked on this site but have not seen the large car topic covered in any detail so far.
Elsewhere I mentioned I get 34 to 36 mpg on my Stratus (this is a 1998 2.4 with no mods). Of course this is highway driving, at 58-62 mph. So far, so good, however:
Road noise is terrible in the Stratus, it's not roomy enough for us and we want to take a trip to Texas in a couple of months in greater comfort and safety; besides, we are seniors who probably won't be able to drive much longer and time is an issue. Finally, though we're not poor, we've never owned a new car, will never own one, and will plan to look in the 1995 to 2002 range.
So we're thinking along the lines of a Mercury Marquis or Chrysler Concorde/ Dodge Intrepid. The Chrysler products are lighter and more economical, but are not as quiet and apparently are not as reliable. Depending on several factors, I would be thinking of aero mods also, but probably would not get to those before our trip. I'd be happy at this point to be able to get to 30 mpg in stock form, driving it as I drive the Stratus .
Your thoughts?
Ray Mac

Check out the Toyota Avalon. Very roomy. Very Quiet. Better mileage than the Merc or the Mopar. Truly more reliable. You'll love it!

look into a used Mercedes diesel

The full-size GM sedans (one example: Buick Park Avenue) with the 3.8 are capable of 30 or so driven carefully, and they are very comfortable, quiet, reliable, and affordable.

Say away from the Concorde/Intrepid clones, they are a nightmare waiting to happen. Have yet to know anyone who can say their Inprepits didn't blow up at some time or another.

As Frank said a GM with a 3.8 would be a good choice. What about an Accord or a Camry? Both are good sized cars, pick up a higher trim one for luxo options. Or an early Lexus

Old people love Buicks! They also get decent fuel mileage. Evan the large Roadmaster could get decent highway numbers.

Ford Crown Vic and Mercury Grand Marquis are very solid, safe, reliable cars and are better on saving fuel than a truck or SUV.

Best in my opinion would be the 97-05 Buick Century. 3.1L V6 Auto. My wife's gets close to 30 MPG with no mods, and no FE technique (she salutes my Metro efforts, but does not to worry with it). It is very comfortable and more roomy than any of the imports I have seen. It's well over the 3,000lb. mark and has stock 140HP.

I have recorded as high as 34 mpg before I ever heard of EcoModding, but I have not driven it recently.

I'm just guessing, but are they sold on "American" cars?

If so, I'll second that -- the 3.1L is an efficient engine option and the Century is comfy. Too bad Olds isn't in biz anymore. The Ninety-Eight was a reliable beast (I met a couple of mechanics that chose them as their daily drivers). The Park Avenue is the biggest (most amenities) -- avoid the supercharged version. The LeSabre is a good compromise.

If the Impala is big enough, that might be a decent pick -- stick with the 3.5L, non-E-85 models from the last few years. I really liked the last Lumina sedan.

I'm not a big fan of Chryslers over the last few years.

From Ford/Mercury, the "Grand Vic" series requires some TLC, but racks up hard miles under Police and Taxi service -- good testament to reliability. Otherwise, the 500/Montego or New Taurus/Sable might be pretty good. Avoid the AWD+CVT ones -- not a good combo.

Imports: Avalon, Maxima, Volvo S60, and S80 are good picks. I'll leave it to consumer reports for Audi, BMW, and Mercedes :o

RH77

I will echo the vote for the Avalon if you can swing it and don't mind a rice burner. If not Buick isn't a bad choice.

Thanks for the replies.
I just took a ride in a '96 Grand Marquis that was for sale. Quiet ride but too softly sprung and it didn't seem to track as well as my Stratus.
I'll keep looking.
Ray Mac

Ditto the recommendation for the Toyota Avalon. A nice ride, but not too soft and squishy, very roomy with big trunk, quiet, and it has a good quality reputation. Much better mpg than a Mercury too.

Intrepids are fine if you can find one without the 2.7, and can afford to not work on the car yourself. My girlfriend has a 2.7 Intrepid, and frequent oil changes with Mobil 1 are a must (this engine is notorious for a sludge issue that Chrysler won't acknowledge), and even minor mechanical issues are a nightmare to work on due to the complete lack of underhood space.

The bigger engines offer a 1-2mpg hit, but are vastly less troublesome, allegedly.

Actually, no, don't get an Intrepid. The seats are absolute murder on my back, and I'm only 27. That's reason enough to not want one.

I second the recommendation of the Avalon. Not real cheap used, but it's basically a big Camry, so you're pretty much in the clear with that.

Actually, even the 2.7 is a good engine when maintained. My wife drives a 2000 intrepid with over 115k miles on it. We have owned it since 20K and have always used Mobil 1 in the car since it was known for the sludge issue. The only repair to the car (non maintenance) was a crankshaft position sensor that went out at 109,000. We routinely get 22 in town and 30 on the highway on cruise at 75mph out of this car. It has had a few mods done to it though. Smoother intake to a K&N filter, better tires etc.

Now, since you are looking used, I would likely shy away from a 2.7 unless either you know the car and how it was maintained, or the PO can show you the record of every maintenenace that has been done.

There were 2 larger engines available, both do not seem to have the sludge issue, but still need the maintenance done. Dodoge vehicles do seem to be picky about the oil changes, but it not like they don't post the intervals in the owners manual or anything....

If you are looking for long term reliabalilty, I would be tempted to look at any Buick (or gm) with the 3.8l...the 231 v6. It is an engine renown for it's reliability. In a park avenue, driven moderatley 27-28 is pretty normal, and they are quiet and comfortable. The regal is a little smaller, gets a little better MPG.

As far as the fords go, they are probably the quietest being full framed and rear wheel drive. They are also the heaviest. I have a friend who drives one 30K+ a year as a regional sales rep. At 65mph he gets 27 and at 75 he gets 24-25. He keeps it though because of the loads he carries in samples, and it is better than a SUV.

Ultimately, they can all be good cars depending on how they are cared for.

Jim

If you want to stay with am American car I'd second the Buick Century or LeSabre. Both will get at least 30 mpg with conservative driving. They are quiet but the ride is definitely on the floaty side. Probably the highest quality GM cars out there for the age. You may be able to get a pretty good deal since their initial depreciation is high but it levels off. You might find a nice 04-06 coming off a lease that would be very affordable.

what about a ford 500 or ford fusion? if sticking with american. both decently sized and good economy

The ford 500 (Taurus) and fusion are midsized cars. I think he was asking about fullsized cars.

Jim

whoops yea sorry i forgot the 500 is now the taurus. that is a pretty big car though, i would even call that full size, but i suppose you're right.

i remember a neighbor of mine had a grand marquis and my dad had an 02 vw passat. honestly the passat had much more passenger room and comfort. with better economy. i think some of the bigger american cars have alot of hood (and motor) and long trunks.

Agreed, they are pretty big, but a direct competitor for the Stratus he already has.

One thing I forgot earlier was the Lincoln Town Car. Basically a Crown Vic/Merc Marquis with more upscale comfort. Probably one of the quietest cars I have ever had the pleasure of riding in. They also came with a MPG (instant and per tank) built in to the dash. For those that want to hypermile the things :)

Jim

The camry and avalon both had an option for in dash mpg monitoring as well. My parents have an 04 camry xle with the 4 banger, very quiet and roomy and ive been able to get it up to 38 mpg on a highway trip before.

In a bit of irony, I'm currently renting a 2008 Avalon Touring for a work trip (a first time rental).

Truthfully, I'm pretty impressed. There's an LCD screen in the dash that displays tank FE, distance to empty, duration of trip, and outside temp (including radio info and climate control).

~200 miles of driving mostly 70 MPH resulted in a 33.2 MPG trip.

Handling is taught but not abusive. It's a nice compromise.

Power is abundant: 268 hp from a 3.5L, V-6. With the 6-speed transmission, the power delivery feels like a V-8. Cruising at 65-70 shows engine speeds of 1700-2000 RPM.

It's slow to downshift through the gears when power is needed, but that's under hard acceleration. So far it's a pretty nice large car.

We'll see how it does around town the next 3 days...

RH77

I'll echo the Buick vote. My dad drives a LeSabre Custom with the 3.8L V6 and says he gets in the high 20s on the highway. It's a very comfortable ride, and plenty of power when you need to get moving, even with a loaded car.

i beat the hell out of my camry and get 27-30sh on average, no hypermiling what so ever.
the avalon is a wider camry.

but i am bias. i am also six three 250lbs and fit comfortable in my car.

Thanks again to all.
I don't need a lot more room inside as much as I want to have a much quieter ride. I do not want a softer ride if it's at the expense of good handling.
The Stratus would be OK for longer trips otherwise, seats are OK, holds the road well, etc.
I appreciate all your suggestions.
Ray Mac

If you are happy with all of the other aspects of the stratus other than the noise level, you would be much cheaper going to a good car audio installation shop and having them put sound deadening in. (or you can do it yourself). There is a type that comes as rolled sheets and can be put under the carpeting and behind the door panels, and the change is significant.

One other one that makes a big difference on our intrepid and neon noise level (cab forward like the stratus) is the type of tire. When we put the winter tires on, the cab volume goes up a LOT. The touring tires we run in the summer are extrememy quiet. So if you have all season tires on the car, you might consider a change to a touring tire.

Jim

Interesting that you brought this up, Jim.
I woke up at 3 this morning, got up and began to look through old Consumer Reports mags that I've kept. I looked for specs of cars in the 1996 New Car Yearbook that I still have.
A couple of things:
Unless I go to a much larger and heavier car, I won't gain much more interior room or trunk space than the Stratus has.
The other surprise was in the comparison of the Stratus with its twin, the Chrysler Cirrus. The Stratus they tested had the 2.4 I4 like mine, and the Cirrus had the 2.5 V6.
Stratus and Cirrus both rated at EPA 29mpg highway.
However,
Stratus was 60 lb. lighter, yet got less mpg.
Cirrus observed mpg was 14/38.
Stratus was 12/36.
Extra weight of Cirrus may be at least partly due to sound insulation, which takes us back to your post, great suggestion!
Mystery is on the FE of the two. I'd guess that the V6, though a little bigger displacement, is a more efficient engine and/or the final drive ratio on the Cirrus is taller.
Noise level on the Cirrus was rated above average, Stratus was rated average.
Ray Mac

My grandma's over priced Mercedes broke down for the umteenth time and she got a 2005 Avalon to drive until it was fixed, well,

she said the Avalon was a much better car and wished she bought one instead.

No problem, and it is certain to be less $$$ than a new car.

The other reason, if I remember correctly, for the difference in MPG was the gear ratio of the transmissions. The 2.4 generally had a numerically higher gear ratio to account for the smaller motor moving a relatively heavy car. The 2.4 was originally designed for the neon after all <grin>.

One other MPG gain I have seen on my old neon, if you decide to keep this car, was an underdrive pulley. It reduces the load from the power steering, AC and alternator by effectively spinning them slower. The only downside to this is if you idle for long periods of time with all the lights, etc on. In which case the battery could run down. It is not generally an issue on highway or normal in town driving. I currently have one on order for the current neon (took me a bit to find one for a first generation).

The other advantage to keeping the car is that you know the history of this vehicle. That can often be priceless.

Jim

Oh yeah....and that you woke up at 3:00 thinking about this probably belongs in the "you might be an eco-modder if....) thread :)

Jim

Thanks again.
I see I wasn't precise about noise level. I meant to say the Cirrus was quieter.
Re the 2.4, 3rd gen Caravans had a base 2.4 engine, not sure if it's the same as the Stratus engine. It must really have to scream.
At the local senior center today I noticed several Le Sabres parked and I was eyeballing them.
The jury is still out, I will continue to research.
Ray Mac.

If you don't want to sacrifice handling, then the 95% of the Buicks are out. The last gen Regal GS has a tighter suspension, but only comes with the 3.8L (some were supercharged).

If you're satisfied with the space of the Stratus, then maybe we're heading in the wrong direction with the "Large Car" segment -- maybe "Mid-Size" is the way to go (opens up a few more options)...

I searched around 1995-2002/Midsize and came up with...
(not a whole lot of Domestics that aren't "mushy")

A few Imports:
Acura TL (1998 and earlier avoids the transmission trouble) More luxury, so-so FE with smaller 2.5L, good handling
Volvo 850/S70 5-cylinder (turbo option), bank-vault safety, OK FE, luxury with good handling
Toyota Avalon As mentioned, a nice big car with Toyota reliability and reasonable FE -- good handling for its size, quiet

Notes: the Lexus (Toyota) brand tends to favor soft rides unless you get the GS300; Infiniti (Nissan) has some options -- but check reliability and ride quality.

RH77

Thanks for the detailed reply. I had forgotten about the good things I'd heard about the Volvo 850.
Regarding ride quality--I want straight-line comfort, a little mushiness is OK as long as it tracks OK and doesn't require constant steering correction.
Ray Mac

The 850/S70 are not the greatest in fuel economy. Average is around 27-28 mpg highway. My brother owns a 99 S70 and I get 1.5 mpg better highway in my 960.
The fwd 3100 lb S70 has a 2.4L 160 hp I5 and is aero rated at .32 Cd. While my rwd 3550 lb 181 hp 2.9L I6 960 areo rated at .36 Cd.
Volvo is in trouble because their cars are not getting better mpg's
My 97 960 at .36 Cd gets the same mpg as a 08 S80 with a .28 Cd that replaced it.
This is the reason when I replace my 87 740 wagon DD, it will not be with a another gas hog Volvo.

I have an 1998 Olds Delta 88 3.8 ( inherited from an elderly relative in 2004 with 24 k miles ) that was getting 22 mpg city and 28 mpg hwy . The mileage has dropped considerably of over time down to 17-23mpg . The car has had regular maintenance . A full scan ( with a real sacantool ) showed everything functioning OK . A tune up did not help . I now have about 71K miles on it and wondering what I can do . Any suggestions to get that mileage back ? - Thanks

Rkpatt. If the mielage has dropped that much, there is something up. At only 71K on a 3.8 I would venture that it is a sensor out, and most likely one or more of the O2 sensors in the exhaust. There is a maintenance interval for these that (IIRC) is around 60K miles. They may still be "close enough" to not trip the scanguage.

That is assuming that you don't have a brake dragging or bearing going out that would not show up in a comuter scan anyway.

Back on topic....

Every vehicle that has been mentioned with good statements will not be too mushy on a straight drive, and bigger cars generally require less steering correction with their longer wheelbase on highway drives (I sometimes drive a jeep XJ and I see a LOT of steering correction :)) Any of them are good, what it ultimately comes down to is drive what you are comfortable in, keep up on the maintenance and tune-ups, drive conservatively, and enjoy.

Jim

Mushy is good!
 

American cars with a mushy ride are perfect candidates for stiffer and lower suspension. It's like a twofer you get the handling and improved Cd both in the same package!:thumbup:

You could always try the old reliable Seafoam treatment. If there is significant carbon buildup inside the top end this would certainly have some benefit. How much of the car's usage is city driving? I would think bad compression would be unlikely at 71k, but anything is possible.

Re the Concord
 

I took a 2000 Concord with the smaller six cylinder last year in part trade for a hotrod I had built and was selling off.
It is not what I would call an exciting car and normally I would not have considered it. The thing is I had just changed work circumstance and was going to be driving a sales route and occasionally sheparding around manufactures representatives to accounts. I am in the DFW area and have about 70 accounts all over the metro area and put about 150 miles a day on the car so I needed to get decent fuel milage obviously. But I also had to be able to pick up and carry around a few other sales weasels now and then, so I needed a fair amount of room. It turned out that the Concord was pretty much ideal.

Having had a Neon R/T and a PT Cruiser not long ago I was kind of luke warm on the Chrysler products, but the Concord has so far turned out to be a pleasant surprise. I am averaging just a whisker over 25mpg with combined driving and I can do 32-33 on the highway. Keep in mind that this is driving like a grandmother as opposed to my old leadfooted ways.

The car had about 110k on it when I got it and I have put another 25k on it in the months that I have had it so far. The only things that I have had to deal with are like another guy mentioned I replaced the crankshaft position sensor. I am told that this is not uncommon with these cars after a 100k or so. I also had some new brakes put on.... apparently the first set to be replaced as I have all the orginal records and they had never been touched.

While I know these things have very little personality and frankly look like the end of the probe an alien would use on you, the fact is that they are dirt cheap, get pretty good mpg for their size and they are pretty big. I look like a mountain gorilla that has been strategically shaven and jammed into business casual and I am quite comfy in it.

Would have rather had an Avalon I will grant, but given that I got it for the equivelant of 2k I think the car really has its points.


Just my two cents.

Funny that I have been lurking and reading forever and something like the Concord got me to start talking.

Cheers,

Crafty

Yes, my daughter has a 2000 Concorde and it seems to be a good car.
When you say you have the smaller engine, do you mean the 2.7? I've read that the earlier ones had a design flaw that caused oil sludging and major engine damage. Hopefully if you have a 2.7 it's a later engine or one that's been taken care of (synthetic oil, etc.). The larger v6's did not have this problem and did pretty well on FE.
Ray Mac

I am close to inheriting a 2000 BMW 540. It is a large solid sedan V8 powered and very comfortable to drive. it is quiet and smooth. In fact with no alterations I had that bad boy doing 25mpg in the city and 32 on the hwy. It not only has a digital mpg meter on board but also has the vacuum meter in the console.

It feels and is a solid car and I am sure reasonably priced in todays market. I will be replacing my 4-runner with it asap. And for those who enjoy older technology still has a tape deck in it along with a cd player .. LOL

Sludging....
 

Yea it is the 2.7L, I don't know if there was trouble with the sludge building up in the first 100k miles. I was lucky enough to have gotten it after the original owner had gone through some kind of deal with a dealer where by he had a new crate motor installed. I got it at about 7500 miles after the install. So if the first motor had issues, the newer one does not seem to. I just do normal oil changes and have had the crankshaft sensor and the basic brake work done.... beyond that boring but dependable and a pretty good work horse.


Crafty