Linner Strømlinet Vogn II
 

Let me preface by saying I've asked for Leitman's How to Build an Electric Car book for Yule, so hopefully that will answer some questions.

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I've been studying ecomarathon cars in the pursuit of ultimate energy efficiency in a planned electric reverse-trike project. Among a few of the most outrageous prototypes this one stood out. I've been trying to work out a viable package for the driver and equipment, however interior shots are hard to find for these things. Finally, a French-language web page emerged, which I link to you now.

(Google Chrome automatically translates for you)
Les stars du Shell Eco-marathon Europe : Polyjoule et Microjoule - Page 3

The highlights, according to the site:
-Started const. in 1984, unbeaten since 1992.
-Cx of 0.11 (Same as Cd?)
-Weight of 30kg, or 66 lbs.
-8,924 MPG (Yes, nine thousand)
-Apparently fiberglass body shell and carbon fiber wheels.

http://www.la-joliverie.com/media/po...3_19042012.jpg

http://images.caradisiac.com/images/...mant-39697.jpg

http://images.caradisiac.com/images/...mant-39748.jpg

Now, obviously driving it would literally be a pain in the butt. I would, though, like to adapt some of the technology to road use in a hyper-efficient commuter. A few questions:

Does anyone know what the wheels are made of, what size they are, and what type of tires were used? CRR of those tires?

I would like some up-close shots of the steering linkages and knuckles.

What is the frame made of, and what does it look like?

What's the turning radius?

Frontal area (to calculate CdA)? Seems to be around 0.4 CdA!!!

I plan on using a steering interface not unlike a recumbent bicycle, as it will make ingress and egress much easier (no wheel to climb under). Not sure where to position the batteries. Front suspension would probably be a variation on Ford's Twin I-Beam setup. Simple (primitive), robust. Rear would be custom-built similar to motorcycle rear suspension.

I think I'm on the right track, bodywork wise. The driver's (my) feet should rest just aft of the front axle(s). It should be a reclined, but not extreme, driving position with my back rather close to the rear wheel.

A quick sketch... I'll upload more later, perhaps. Surely I have enough pages filled with this thing :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8065/8...120a08f7_z.jpg
Stomlinet Vogn by Tyler Linner, Intergalactic Man of Mystery, on Flickr

Does anyone know about making custom in-hub electric motors? The ones on e-bicycles only go 45mph. I suspect the higher powered ones might sustain an ecomarathon car at highway speeds, but getting there would be a problem. The goal weight for the vehicle would be around 700lbs with batteries, without rider and cargo (+150lbs). I would need around 25hp to equal the power-to-weight ratio of a diesel Mk1 Golf. That's the performance goal.

Range goal is 100-150mi. Lofty? Maybe. But with Volts and Leafs on the market, perhaps Li-ion batteries will not be so expensive?

Oh, and I don't want to be a dick about this, but can we keep the random image/tangent posting to a minimum in this thread, pretty please? :)

Okay, discuss. :snail:

Those wheels look like they're carbon fibre to me.

Yes, wheels are carbon fiber. They are 16 inches mounted with Michelin Radial tires for solar cars. Probably 45/75 R16 with a Crr between 0.001 and 0.002, they are inflatable to 100 PSI.

Frontal area is around 0.3 m², CdA is much lower than 0.4, it's 0.033.

You might do well looking at Australian series racing HPVs. Very custom, but suspension is rare or nonexistant. The interior space created by rollcage requirements makes the basic styles more suited to commuting modification than Eco-marathon shells and chassis
The Phantom team forum seems to be the most active for the past few years, or search for "Pedal-Prix" for general images.

As for tires, the Michelin ecomarathon special radials, I'm not sure if they're available to the general public. Schwalbe currently has Tryker radial tires in commuter and lightweight racing versions available on request, 40-406 (20"x1.5"). The other popular option is Greenspeed Scorcher (40-349) and Duro slick (40-406) which were developed to replace Tioga Comp-pools which changed in design.

Looking closely at the wheels I would expect that they are cut from reinforced carbon panels - Pre-preg layers over a honeycomb core of aluminum or kevlar (Nomex) - with an alloy rim bonded on. An example (from a heavier material) is part way down this page

I have a bunch of old bookmarks I could go though. I was looking for 100 hp and never found anything. If I have time I'll see what I can turn up, seems like there was more than one at 25 hp, a golf cart thing maybe. It was not cheap, that much I do remember.

The typical cheap pancake motor can peak at 25 hp and sustain 20 hp reliably. I've sort of looked at FWD short axles and CV joints as a way to inboard the motors and keep the sprung weight down.

Commercially produced hub motors which people could slap on a wooden crate and drive off in is a long time fantasy of mine.

EDIT: Inspiration - if they could do it in 1900, why could not we do it in 2012?

The first Hybrid Vehicle
by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche
http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/images...r-porsche2.jpg
http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/images...er-Porche2.jpg
http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/images...r-porsche2.jpg

Thanks, everyone. The HPV's look like they're more or less custom bodies over standard recumbent tricycle chassis? I've thought about that... might not be useful enough for the trouble of building one. I'll be making a custom chassis for this car anyway, so maybe it would be more easy to adapt the ecomarathon car after all.

Kach, the golf cart is an interesting idea. I may have to look into that. What kind of life span would those motors have?

Did another sketch yesterday, this time with more effort. Colored pencil with gouache highlights. I like the purple with light blue interior. The fenders are less prominent... good?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8...008e8c94_z.jpg
Stromlinet Vogn by Tyler Linner, Intergalactic Man of Mystery, on Flickr

One interesting thing is that the Microjoule's fabulous proportions are simply the result of styling over the large rear wheel. I love it, but my limiting factor will be the head room. A longer wheelbase will make it more stable at speed but decrease turning radius. Still have to run calcs on turning radius vs. wheel angle to reverse engineer the max wheelbase, and work from there.

I've been sitting on the floor to measure the space needed. Should be less than a meter tall, and perhaps 3m long like the 'joule. I'd like my feet behind the axle for rudimentary crash safety.

Now that would be a fitting successor to the Anal Probe. Did that thing ever sell?

You can buy a fiberglass body if you want to build one. I was looking at these a few years ago, but there is no room for pedalling.

http://destinyparts.com/

http://destinyparts.com/images/stori...0-1639-sml.jpg

freebeard, I've gotten a few nibbles but nothing serious.

arcosine, part of the appeal of this project is that I get to design and build my own car. So, it's exactly what I want! Looks like a good site, though. The motors go up to 19hp which is just a bit shy of my power goal.

Wow! They've got swing arms and shocks and wheels and brakes and everything! *Bookmark!*

On at tadpole trike, for best stability, the cg should be near the front, as the rear tire reacts no overturning moment.

Electrathon racers are cool*. But be aware that they race under rules that limit battery weight. Two Optima Redtops are about it. So every thing is sized to beefier that bicycle parts; but not for instance, motorcycle parts.

* Here're two pictures from last Summer at the Valley River parking lot.
http://i.imgur.com/408Tt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nOLih.jpg

So that's why all the competitors have the front wheels so far back? I figure I can throw some batteries up there and be fine.

And how long do you think those batteries would last, range wise? I have no idea about electricity consumption and battery size.

Also, that Metro limo is hilarious. They didn't even repaint the entire thing, or buff it out for that matter. :rolleyes:

Think of Bucky's Dymaxion.

That's the contest: Fixed battery weight, and longest range over 1 hour. It turns it into a balancing act.
To be fair the Metro is a working truck; He hauled two Electrathon racers in that. And he said he lost about 2mpg with the stretch.

It's plywood!

WOW!

Thanks for the new bookmark.

Here is an article taken form one of my old bookmarks.

Can motors in wheels spark electric car revolution?
Can motors in wheels spark electric car revolution? - CNN.com


Check out Tesla's new drivetrain.
EV Weblog: Tesla S Alpha
http://www.evconvert.com/images/693.jpg
I must have the golf cart and wheel chair hub motors in another folder, will keep looking.

The Golden Zeppelini
http://i.imgur.com/r60cj.jpg

^^ lol, burningman.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8076/8...4c97be65_z.jpg
Stromlinet Vogn II by Tyler Linner, Intergalactic Man of Mystery, on Flickr

What's the World Speed Record for wheelchairs?

110 mph

Sven7 -- I should mention that I really like the drawings you've posted.

The last one isn't colorized so I can read the glass area. The first one had a complex bubble(s) top, the 2nd one simplified and this last reminds me of the BMW i8 with that windshield that goes clear to the nose:
http://i.imgur.com/P3GDc.jpg

I was inspired a bit by the Pininfarina B0 (B zero) in that the area in front of the windshield, as well as the roof, would have solar panels to help recharge the batteries and vent the cabin while parked. The Prius uses that solar vent feature, correct?

It would also allow me to (probably) do a simple-curvature window and not worry about vacuum forming or other more complex production techniques. After all, windows are best without distortion.

Those 2 mpg could easily be regained with a few ecomods ;)

Reduce the weight, and you're back at diesel rabbit p/w.

If you want to run it out on the streets in the real world , instead of on the track as per eco-marathon, I'd go for 4 wheels rather than 3.

I think you're right.

Have you seen this? I posted it in another thread (I don't draw enough to have a fluid line). The windscreen would be a conic section with an irregular radius. I didn't draw them in, but the headlights would be under glass, like the taillights in the Pininfarina B0, or VW's Up!.
http://i.imgur.com/lnOex.jpg

I'm not confident I could build the thing, batteries and all, to be under, say, 900 including driver (150lbs). To equal the diesel Rabbit's dismal acceleration I'd need 26.7 hp.

Now, let's reverse that. If I wanted to use that 19hp [peak] motor, the loaded car would need to weigh 639.5 lbs. Subtracting the driver's weight, that comes to 489.4 lbs. That's really, really light. Sport bike light.

I want to use it as a commuter car. I would very much like to use the 3 wheel tadpole layout. I think if the weight is low and forward it should be stable enough for street duty. The only things sticking out above the top of the wheels should be my upper torso, head, and roll bar.

I don't want to brag, but I have attended autocross school and done some racing, so it's not as if I don't know how to handle a car. :) Of course, the main concern would be emergency maneuvers. Air brakes, anyone? :D

Thoughts on this stuff?

I saw it. I am planning on doing an irregular radius lexan window. The headlights would also be under radiused lexan since I figure glass would be hard to find and heavy.

My friend has worked with fiberglass a bit on top secret projects and makes it sound easy. He's also done some (cosmetic) carbon fiber work. From some quick Googling it sounds like CF is more expensive, stronger, more likely to crack and lighter than fiberglass. That would leave the latter's strengths to be much lower cost and higher durability. Can anyone give me numbers for weight comparison? Also, how much durability will the vehicle need? I don't know. Probably depends on the frame flex.

I am thinking about a tubular steel chassis shaped like those tetrahedral cream packets, with the flat part up front and the vertical one acting as a roll bar and rear suspension mount in back. With reinforcement, of course.

I need to make a 3D model and get some good proportions and perspective going. It's hard to work out.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8083/8...953fc272_z.jpg
Stromlinet Vogn II by Tyler Linner, Intergalactic Man of Mystery, on Flickr

Daihatsu Midget II's are 1335mm/52" wide, and they look top-heavy!

http://j-spec.com.au/yw52909698/1996...idget-Ii_1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSHI2mDWLGY

Peel P50 is 990mm/39" wide, and a top-heavy three wheeler.

At 2:54 you can see Clarkson lift the front wheel. Obviously it's got a much, much higher center of gravity and much, much shorter wheelbase than I plan to use. Its wheelbase is 50", about half my minimum acceptable measure, however 39" in width sounds about right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo

http://www.itsgotwheels.com/wp-conte...de-cropped.jpg

Recumbent bicycle seating position:
http://www.recumbentbikesdenver.com/...inks_gross.jpg

Am I crazy to benchmark against the Midget II, Peel and a bicycle?

Guys, Cd is unit-less, but CdA is expressed in units of area, so don't forget.

0.033 m^2 * (10.76ft^2/ft^2) = 0.36 ft^2

Compared properly, your two different numbers almost agree with each other.

==============================

I have to say that the MPG number very nearly boggled my mind, I thought it was an electric and it was MPGe, but nope, the magazine reports it has an ICE so it is actually MPG.

Nonetheless, I think that when you consider 15X reduction in CdA compared to a Prius, probably at much lower speeds for maybe another 4X for V^2 (am I right?), it does seem like it might be within the limits of physics.

... although I'm still mystified as to how they scaled an ICE down to achieve low weight in a practical drive-train with low throttle loss... something Sven needn't worry about for an electric.

==============================

If you want to use this in traffic, being seen by cross-traffic when you have right-of-way is a serious concern with all recumbent-type vehicles. Consider 500-2000 lumens of forward motorcycle / LED lighting. Needs to have a bright mode for daylight and a directed road pattern for nighttime. This issue gets a lot of discussion in bicycle forums.

Who says an off-road unicycle does not exist?
 

Am I crazy to benchmark against the Midget II, Peel and a bicycle?[/QUOTE]

Unicycles is the last packaging frontier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIa0q47CXsk

Just cause I'm still logged in, I'll reply right away.

First, I would like to use some sort of bright paint job. Safety green is a bit conspicuous but maybe a nice 70's blue or lime green.
http://static.corradoworld.com/pictu...ciroco_MK1.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8152/7...24b9f49d_z.jpg

It would also need ample reflectors- probably the kind that look black until you shine a light on them- over the "painted black" areas.

Last, I would have LED running lamps. It might be good to make them flash like some motorcycle headlamps, and since it will be registered as such, that would be legal. Not sure how to go about putting together the lighting- do you know of any good threads?

Inside Fast Freddy's 78 mph bicycle run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPzF...e=results_main

Yeah, bright paint color is very good, I understand your hesitation in painting the whole thing neon green. Reflectors are good at night when (if) you're being overtaken (more of a cycling issue), no good for any other circumstance. But forward lighting is key for the cross-traffic under right-of-way issue, which is a really critical and common scenario. Actually, the other supplementary solution I might be alone in suggesting is a chrome dome. Full daylight is the single condition where forward lighting tends to under-perform, in that scenario if all your top-half curved surfaces have a chrome finish then you become a source of glare.

Sorry, I don't know of any good threads I can direct you to for this purpose, and I'm not even totally happy with the available cyclist solutions (although I have some high power P7 LEDs in LiIon flashlights that I blind everyone with).

The thought I have put into this suggests the next place to look might be converting motorcycle luminaries to LED, but...

I'm not familiar with motorcycles period.

The end-game is getting tons of light sprayed indiscriminately across a wide azimuthal range, including the horizon and above during the day preferably in a flashing mode, then being able to direct it to the road so you can see where you're going at night without blinding oncoming traffic. Obviously automotive luminaries are really good at doing this but can't be converted to LED due to the specificity of the reflector design to the bulb type, and would be mechanically too big anyways.

Here's my other idea: Get a Magicshine, plus taillight. Turn signals would have to be a separate kit. You can try getting it without the battery pack and get a DC-DC converter so it can splice into your trike's battery, but that may just be extra work. Steal some road-pattern lenses from some cheaper lights so you can spread the pattern along the azimuth. Make a mechanical lever so you can toggle the hot spot height, up in everyone's eyes in the day, down on the road at night.

Did you see how the commenters were more concerned with the old car in the barn than the design? :(

By 'glass' I meant Lexan. But there is a company locally that makes windshields for motorhomes. I may draw up a schematic and walk in to see if I can get a free price quote.

It's 'easy' but don't breath the fumes. My understanding is that carbon fiber is harder to mold around concave or convex edges, as it's stiffer that glass fiber.

With three wheels, the frame shouldn't flex in torsion.

Aren't you in some design school? Have they covered 3d modelling or do you have a preferred application? I think you basic choices are box, NURBS or sub-division modellers.

LED headlight - Google Search

http://i.imgur.com/RNzps.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ofGMD.jpg

I'm really irritated by people who fly flags for their local football team in traffic because they are distracting; but in this case an anarchist flag on a whip antenna might be a life saver.

christofoo

Yeah, bright paint color is very good, I understand your hesitation in painting the whole thing neon green. Reflectors are good at night when (if) you're being overtaken (more of a cycling issue), no good for any other circumstance. But forward lighting is key for the cross-traffic under right-of-way issue, which is a really critical and common scenario. Actually, the other supplementary solution I might be alone in suggesting is a chrome dome. Full daylight is the single condition where forward lighting tends to under-perform, in that scenario if all your top-half curved surfaces have a chrome finish then you become a source of glare.

I can see how a chrome finish would be great for visibility but that woul be even worse than neon green! :p

I am a cyclist as well and commuted on bike all through high school, all year round. So, I am aware of the visibility issues. I had thought about having a flag lift up during low-speed driving but perhaps that would add too much drag.

Sorry, I don't know of any good threads I can direct you to for this purpose, and I'm not even totally happy with the available cyclist solutions (although I have some high power P7 LEDs in LiIon flashlights that I blind everyone with).

The thought I have put into this suggests the next place to look might be converting motorcycle luminaries to LED, but...

I'm not familiar with motorcycles period.

The end-game is getting tons of light sprayed indiscriminately across a wide azimuthal range, including the horizon and above during the day preferably in a flashing mode, then being able to direct it to the road so you can see where you're going at night without blinding oncoming traffic. Obviously automotive luminaries are really good at doing this but can't be converted to LED due to the specificity of the reflector design to the bulb type, and would be mechanically too big anyways.

Here's my other idea: Get a Magicshine, plus taillight. Turn signals would have to be a separate kit. You can try getting it without the battery pack and get a DC-DC converter so it can splice into your trike's battery, but that may just be extra work. Steal some road-pattern lenses from some cheaper lights so you can spread the pattern along the azimuth. Make a mechanical lever so you can toggle the hot spot height, up in everyone's eyes in the day, down on the road at night.


I intend for this car to cruise at speeds up to 65mph. I want it to be highway-worthy. Therefore, my main lighting has to be DOT approved and VERY bright. I have been considering mounting Hella 500 style driving lights inside the nose but they draw 55W each. I will probably end up with some sort of HID or halogen car headlights for the night and Audi-style LED strips for the day.

Good idea on directing the lights in people's eyes during the day, but how much oncoming traffic is really going to cause a problem? Only when I'm turning left across an intersection? I feel that maybe blinking LED running lights may be sufficient and I will just have to drive defensively. Having full-strength headlights on all the time would really drain the battery.

Speaking of which, does anyone know of a thread dealing with electricity consumption vs. CdA vs. battery size, or something of the sort? I'd like to have a rough estimate of how much space I'll need for batteries. Let's say I want it to go 100 miles on a charge, use a 26hp motor drawing on lithium ion batteries, and have a CdA of 1.5.

freebeard-

Sorry, I was responding to christofoo when you posted!

Did you see how the commenters were more concerned with the old car in the barn than the design? :(

Actually forgot to look back at your thread after the T-bird stuff. :o Gotta finish this post, do some job searching, then go back and review it. I do LOVE the old Chrysler prototypes though!

By 'glass' I meant Lexan. But there is a company locally that makes windshields for motorhomes. I may draw up a schematic and walk in to see if I can get a free price quote.

Oh, of course. I seem to remember custom auto glass isn't terribly expensive?

It's 'easy' but don't breath the fumes. My understanding is that carbon fiber is harder to mold around concave or convex edges, as it's stiffer that glass fiber.

Project: Mad Hatter :D

With three wheels, the frame shouldn't flex in torsion.

Duh, why didn't i realize that.

Aren't you in some design school? Have they covered 3d modelling or do you have a preferred application? I think you basic choices are box, NURBS or sub-division modellers.

I graduated with a BFA in Transportation Design from CCS last spring. They taught us to use Autodesk Alias so that's what I use- it's very powerful for making pretty surfaces but isn't meant for mechanical design. It'll work well enough to lay out suspension parts and whatnot for visualization, but you couldn't mill a cylinder head from it.

When the time comes to make the actual body I will probably print out sections from my Alias model as guides for the buck.

LED headlight - Google Search

:p

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RNzps.jpg
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ofGMD.jpg

Uffda. :eek:

I'm really irritated by people who fly flags for their local football team in traffic because they are distracting; but in this case an anarchist flag on a whip antenna might be a life saver.

They're irritated at you for rooting for the other team! Anarchist... haha. How about a white EM logo on a bright green flag?

S'okay. It's supposed to be asynchronous.

When you do remind me which thread that was (or post in the thread) :) If it falls off the front page, or I don't get an email tickler, I lose track of where I said what [outlandish claim].
But if the quote is free I have a talking point!

Paul Arzens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually I guess it was 'Union flag' I was thinking of:
"There's foxes in the hen house Cows out in the corn
The unions have been busted Their proud red banners torn"

I saw a truck with a wide load that had flags made of a fine mesh net in orange. I wanted some to put on the rear corners of my VW van. (they always hit the left rear corner) :(

That's surprising. Autodesk's AutoCAD is *the* name I associate with Computer Aided Design. Do they provide an Export path back to AutoCAD?

I did a little sketch model just with some curves to get a feel for the dimensions and volume. It's got a 108" wheelbase and it's 39" wide. The passenger space is about 26" tall by 48" long. 20" wheels in front and 24" in the back, or something like that.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2dh62b4.jpg

sizing batteries for small vehicles - Google Search

The model seems to confirm the sketches. It will be interesting to see how you handle the front fender/skirt.

With any three wheel design needs to control the Cg:

http://www.rqriley.com/images/fig-3whl.gif
(click on image to see source article)

If you can get consumption down to about 100Wh/mile, then you'll need a 11-12kWh pack (with about 10kWh DOD) and based on the cells I was planning CarBEN EV5 around, that would be a volume of about 3.5' x 10.5" x 5.5". The individual cells are 10.5" x 5.5" x 0.375" and you would need about 112 of them. (CarBEN EV5 has space for ~768 cells for a ~55kWh pack.)

Perhaps I err on the side of stating the obvious? While I'm at it, I'd suggest wheels that are round.

I forgot about HID. That's probably the way to go.

=======================

I like the idea. Now I want a freeway etrike too.