Lordstown Motors’ Endurance pickup truck.
 

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Have we done this one yet...???

https://i.postimg.cc/c4rrjw96/347-D9...081-F459-A.png

Home page

https://lordstownmotors.com/pages/endurance



Shuttered Lordstown Plant to Reopen with 600 U.S. Jobs Making Electric Trucks

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ectric-trucks/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo


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So does this mean they are going to be first?

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Maybe...

More info here.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...es/5229669002/

Looks legit.


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Hub motors are such a cool idea. As soon as I saw that I was curious... but their tech limits the truck to 80 mph. They say that is a software limit but it seems like it might be a software limit because it is the hub motors limit. How many people will want a truck that tops out at 80?

Hopefully the hub motors don't end up sinking the company.
Hub motors are not really a great application for a pickup.

Uh, big pickups have been governed run since at least 2000. My F250 will only go 85 verfied without mucking with the software.

I didn't know that. But still, depending on their hub motor technology that software limit might be "hiding" hardware RPM limits to the motor. That would be different than your F250's software limitation. If Lordstown really is only software limiting much more capable hub motors, that would be really, really cool. It would be more like the Orbis Wheel than a QSMotor.

Hub motors move space requirements out of the vehicle, get rid of the gearbox, and allow for some very interesting suspension geometries. I would agree that they do not appear to be a perfect fit for low end torque on a vehicle that hauls, like a pickup.

I'm a bit behind. Last time I looked, a hub motor (not on a bicycle or trike) had not lasted longer than a set of tires. Has someone got a production model yet that does?

If they are so great then why has no one tried to make a hub motor on road vehicle?

Still to this day no one has demonstrated a hub motor used "on road" that can out last a set of tires.
It would be all over the Internet if they did.

Maybe they wouldn't be so bad at all, since they could allow the cargo bay floor to sit lower due to the absence of a differential housing which would allow the use either of a simpler tube-axle or some fully-independent suspension with a single swingarm on each side instead of a rear axle.

Nissan, tesla, GM and ford don't seem to think electric vehicle gear boxes arent such a horrible thing.

I was thinking more along the lines of a heavy highway driven vehicle that will see some water and mud on its hub motors. That's where the problem are.
10 to 12 years ago it seemed like every major OEM wanted to be the first to launch a hub motor electric car, then reality set in. All the hub motors failed rapidly, attempting to improve the design didn't help much, made the hub motors bigger and heavier which made already bad ride quality worse and they did the smart thing and gave up one by one.
Maybe they figure if a truck handles like a forklift not so many people will complain since it's just a truck.
If they aren't trialing hub motors right now and ready to show a hub motor that's as good as a traditional gear box and they're trying to put a product to market in 2021 it's likely going to fail spectacularly.

What I think is going to happen is this company was born to fail.

They launch the hub motors, the hub motors torpedo the company, GM buys it for change on the dollar, redesigns it a little to take a traditional motor and gear box setup.
That way they test the hub motors and if they work great everyone lives happily ever after, if they don't then GM gets to lead the electric truck market with a flag ship factory they bought at fire sale prices and it's nearly impossible for them to lose any money.

I gotta agree with Oilpan4 below. I have been following hub motors with interest for 6 or 7 years now, and there seems to be development activity, but not enough. The Orbis Wheel made a big splash at SEMA, attached to the rear wheels of a new Civic Type R for all wheel drive. It *seemed* brilliantly designed, and they were selling kits directly to the market. But they were bought out by investors and have disappeared.

If Lordstown does not have some amazing new tech in thos wheels they will be prohibitively heavy as unsprung weight and not durable.

I wish that were not true.

That's impressively cynical ... and likely how it will play out :(

Hub motors always sound like such an obvious solution.

[Begin sarcasm]
Maybe this requires some alternate thinking? Make them LIGHTER ... and CHEAPER ... don't worry about wear. Design them to be changed WITH the tires, and make them easily recyclable. Build one into your SPARE so you're carrying one around with you!
[end sarcasm]

Hub motors work great in appropriate applications.
Perfect for big low speed applications. But as the vehicle speed increases and weight decreases the hub motors need to decrease in size fast to the point where they are more of a secondary mode of propulsion.

The slowest, weakest mass produced electric vehicle made, the first Gen Nissan leaf will put down nearly 2,000 foot pounds of torque to the wheels. The truck will struggle to make 2,000ft lb from all 4 wheels.

Well, for example in Finland you're legally allowed to go 75mph and only on the motorway.
I'm just wondering why would someone want to go faster than 80mph with a pickup truck? :confused:

To make insurance rates higher for everyone who doesn't.

My wife suggests that it a physical endowment thing: mine is bigger, better, more expensive, (whatever) than yours.

Yeah my wife says I'm compensating with the leaf
I like to park next to the gigantic lifted pickups, I hope it makes them feel bigger, I'm just there for the shade.

Considering that most pickups in the US could easily be swapped out with Corollas equipped with Manly Driver bumper stickers, who cares about the hauling capacity?

In fact they're not such a horrible thing, but if some consolidated technologies were supposed to be irreplaceable we would probably be still riding horses or in a best-case scenario resorting to some jalopy.


That's a matter of concern, but shouldn't be treated as an excuse to simply leave hub motors behind.

What's the point of putting 30,000 mile hub motors on a million mile battery?
Even the lowly Nissan leaf gear box will go at least 160,000 miles if you never check or change the oil.

I like the motor per wheel approach and the availability of the space between the wheels for lowering the bed or batteries or whatever.

But the same could be achieved with a swingarm suspension with hypoid gears and the motor in between the main bearings of each swingarm. The motors could rev higher, the hypoid gear set would add less unsprung weight than a rim motor would, and the motors would be less vulnerable.

It would be no good for the front suspension as you cannot steer, obviously, but neither is a rim motor any good there as the the motor and steering pivots get in each others way and the total weight gets out of hand.

This truck is never getting produced.

Workhorse spun off Lordstown Motors to put their unprofitable truck project and associated R&D money sinkhole somewhere it won't bother their core focus on more profitable last-mile delivery vans. For more evidence, here's the drivetrain on Workhorse's C1000/650 vans:

https://workhorse.com/assets/img/P45.png
Source: https://workhorse.com/NGEN.html

NOT the unworkable hub motor BS.

Sam

The machining on that looks expensive

Back in the days of black and white photography they did it like that.

I'm not a hub motor expert but I'm pretty sure that's not a hub motor.

He's saying this is the Workhorse axle motor. Workhorse dropped the hub motor design and another investor bought it and created Lordstown motors named after the Lordstown GM plant he also bought to make his pickup.

To me the Lordstown guy seems serious about making the EV, and it seems all the prototypes have hub motors. Maybe they have figured out the shortcomings or know nobody else is making pickups that last much more than 200,000 either without a $5000 motor or a $3000 transmission or $4000 worth of fuel injector work or all of the above. Even if it needed $10,000 worth of new hub motors after that it's still under what and average new pickup is going to bleed you.

200k pickups are fairly common, mostly the ford /chevy big block diesel. most achievements not requiring motor tranny or FI rebuilds. Brakes, tires, suspension otoh, yup common.

Well my supposedly "bulletproof" 5.9 Cummins needed injectors in under 200,000 miles and the parts alone were over $4000 (new Bosch injectors, new harness, and new gaskets) installed would have been $5000 even. So great, the Cummins goes 500,000 miles but I could have dropped a whole new Hemi in there at that point for less than just the Cummins injectors. My 3.0 TDI just got all new injectors at 80,000 miles and they are similar $400 each just for the part. Luckily that was done 100% under the extended dieselgate warranty. It's always something, expecting zero high dollar maintenance after 200,000 miles is unlikely.

Considering a brushless motor will have fewer wear and tear, I wouldn't expect it to be made to a much lower standard.

Notice I did not include FCA or isuzu. Never a fan of cummins, always a CAT person. HMMM perhaps low milage stop starts affect injectors. Will advise when any of my FI stuff needs injectors in the next say ten years or so.

To use 4 motors instead of a single motor, transmission, and differential (or 2 motors if you want 4wd) .. the hub motors would need to be in the $3000 range. That's still $12K for the drivetrain ...

Everything that I have read so far points to .. unfortunately .. the $12K replacement motors installed at 50K - 75K(optomistic) or 30K - 40K(pessimistic), not 200K. And the failure mode of the hub motor is nasty. Rotating metal hub hits stationary metal stator when the single side-loaded bearing gets not-very-much wear. Screeching metal, abrupt stop :(

I'd love to be proven wrong by Lordstown. If they figured out how to make the bearings wear very little ... or have designed a different setup that uses 2 or 3 bearings and they can spread the load ... they'll be a couple of years ahead of everyone else and should be able to make a decent profit before anyone else can reproduce their success. Particularly if they continue to improve their design.

Million mile battery, 30,000 mile hub motors.

Jeez Louise, thats like a rebuild on a long haul truck every month. Tires last that long.

If tires only last 30,000 miles they are overpriced mud tires, the person drives like a juvenile or they are cheap tires.

FCA remained a serious player in the field of light-duty Diesels, even though Isuzu has concentrated its efforts on engines for commercial vehicles and other applications. On a sidenote, besides some N-Series and F-Series trucks which used to be officially imported and rebadged as a GMC, most of the Isuzu stuff I have seen in Brazil were gassers.

Well the local joke is about FCA is stuffing a 20year engine in a 5 year body with a 20% discount to FMC, Chevy. Most isuzu branded vehicles I have seen are box trucks diesel powered, flogged hard and put away wet with manufacturing issues.

I cant or wont comment on other countries experience.

Commercial long haul tires which tend to wear in a taper from corners.

I don't think the Lordstown motors will only last 30k if GM is involved. They have a good track record of ev reliability.

But hub motors have a horrible record of durability and reliability when used on road.

You mean the 3.0 V6 EcoDiesel? Well, there are other examples of some random "old" engine design being slightly updated to some newer emissions standard. Another example from FCA is the Sofim engine fitted to the Fiat Ducato and briefly the RAM ProMaster, and also fitted to the Mitsubishi Fuso Canter.


Regarding trucks, only a handful of the ones I've seen weren't rebadged as GMC. Those older ones had rock-solid engines, even though the lack of electronics by the time most of them were made could be accountable for such resilience to somewhat extreme conditions and neglect, plus the fact that much of the old-school Jap trucks were mostly naturally-aspirated.