Mechanics : need advice on a "mistake"
 

Hey folks. I posted this topic earlier : http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ease-2882.html

I finally took the car into a new shop down the street. I told the fellow that I needed the CV boots replaced. He said he could replace the boots as well as the shaft for under $ 350 dollars, which was around $ 100 less than the other shop I had been to before.
This sounded good, but I should have known that he was talking about another part on the car.
I picked up the car at closing time, signed on the dotted lines, shook the guys hand and drove off.
The car drives really strange now, but I thought it just needed time to wear in.
When I pulled in to the drive, I turned the wheel and looked under the car.
Plain as day, the CV boots were still there all torn up.
I did however have a shiny new "CVjoint shaft" and boots up front. ( That were probably just fine before the mechanic replaced them. )

Now I know I am at fault for not specifying which boots needed replacing, but ... c'mon it is plain as day ! ( Just look at the images I posted at the linked thread )
I would have hoped that the mechanic could have called me once he saw that the ' other' CV boots were split and asked if that was what I meant.
So now I am out $ 342.64 and still have to have the CORRECT CV boots replaced.

Hard lesson learned.:(

How would you guys handle a situation like this ?

This is what I get for being in too big of a hurry. I should have walked the guy over to the car and showed him what I needed replaced.
Stupid me.

I'm not saying that the guy was out to get me or anything, but I have to admit that the thought does cross my mind when I just know the guy had to have seen that the CV boots ( the other ones ) were torn.

Yet another stupid mistake that I made was that I signed the paperwork without inspecting the work,or thinking twice what was written on the bill ( " Replaced both left and right CV joint shaft - Chk Alig " )
There was no mention of CV boots in the bill.
I just assumed that the guy would have seen them.

Stupid stupid me.

Cd -

Wierd. Maybe he just wanted you off the property. Years ago, before I met my wife, she came to pick her car up from the service department. For some reason, the car was oddly parked so that she couldn't see the passenger side. She insisted on looking at the other side and saw a big dent/scratch. Their plan was for her to drive off the lot. The minute she was off the lot, they could claim that she caused the damage. She caught them red-handed and they had to cough up for the repair.

Sorry about the $$ loss. If the receipt doesn't match the work, then maybe you can do something about it.

That's one reason why I drive 26 miles to my current mechanic. I'm too scared to try someone else because I don't have the savvy to know if they're ripping me off or not.

CarloSW2

Looking at your other post that is not a CV boot. That is your steering linkage. This should have been glaringly apparent to them and they should have called you to tell you this. At the very least they should have mentioned this to you when you went to pick it up. I wouldn't trust them with more work.

As I was leaving, I asked him if everything else was O.K., because it has been a while since these boots tore and I was wondering if anthing else got damaged.
He looked puzzled and said ' Naw ... everything else is fine, but your (" some big name part ") might be rusted and need replacing because the car is riding really rough.
He made no mention of the torn boots.

Do you think that the guy honestly could have just not seen the ripped boots ?
It's really obvious when you turn the wheel, and I would think especially when you have the wheel off .

After looking at the reciept, there is no mention of any boots at all. The part that he changed is the part that connects to the wheel and has a boot that flexes with the wheel itself.
I have to wonder if he just cleaned the boot to make it look new.

I am totally at fault for this stupid mistake. I hate when I screw up like this.

Don't blame yourself. Tons of people those mechanics deal with daily know less than you do about cars. They know this and should be people you can trust. Unfortunately, thats not really the way it is most of the time.

Heres a little story for you. Back when I first got the Paseo I bought a header for it. So, I took it to the exhaust shop to have it installed along with a muffler. A few days later they called me and said it was done but they couldn't install it because the header wouldn't seal. They charged me the full quoted price for all the work and I went on my way. Well, at the time I worked at a machine shop and I took it in to inspect the flange flatness. It was dead on. A few months later I figured I might as well give a shot at installing it myself. I go to remove the bolts that hold the manifold to the head and low and behold, one of the bolts stripped the threads out of the head. Did I ever get anything they ruined my head? Nope, just let me go on my way. They also beat the bajeezes out of the header. I got it back with a few GOOD dents in it. Was this my fault for not inspecting things before hand? Heck no, all they had to do was tell me the truth and I would have been fine with it. But they would have had to fix the head, or get me a new one which would be common practice if they were a honest place. I guess that is asking too much though. At that point, I decided I'd never bring my car to a garage again, and I haven't yet to this day (except for new tire mounting).

Can you elaborate?

I'm not standing up for the mechanic but.....
 

Ok, This is what may have happened on the mechanic's end.

Sometimes when replacing an axle/cv shaft on a car it's easier to remove the axle when you turn the wheel all the way one way. For example: If you are replacing the right front cv shaft you would turn the wheel to the right, Therefore collapsing the "Inner tie rod boot/steering rack boot". When it's collapsed it looks ok because it squashed together. So he may have put it on the lift or jacked it up, Turned the wheel THEN pulled the tire. If he did this he most likely wouldn't see it for it's not sticking out/stretched out in front of him.

See what it looks like when the wheels are straight.....I'd bet they don't look as bad as when they are stretched out. If so maybe when he pulled the wheel the wheels were straight and he didn't notice because it didn't look like a sore thumb.

Ditto?

Man, that just sucks. I guess it would have been better to take him out and show him what you wanted done. I am thinking he did not see them and did what you asked.

Learn to do your own work. Its easy.

Cd -

Tales of woe. I bought a motorcycle (1972 Honda CB350F) to take miles off my (Dad's) 1971 Karmann Ghia (he let me drive it as my own). I thought I would do my own oil change on the motorcycle. When I tightened the oil drain plug bolt I heard a *CRACK* and oil started to leak out. I had cracked the oil drain pan. $80 later (that was a lot of money to me back then) I had a new pan and a healthy fear of my own two hands.

Here's the irony. Guess how I totalled my (Dad's) Karmann Ghia (at 10 miles an hour)?
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.... Buying parts for my motorcycle.

Insert Game Show "you lose" music here - wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhh.

CarloSW2

Just my thoughts
 

Please don't blame the shop,
Years ago I owned my own shop.
I learned very early to always do what the customer asked for. Even when "I" thought he was wrong. ( being yelled at for doing the right thing as opposed to what I was told to do)
This may be what you encountered with the other shop.
They may not even have noticed that your steering boots were torn.
The steering boots are very inexpensive. (IIRC $25 per side)
They are relatively easy to install. (3 - 4 hours in your driveway)
You need an alignment when done. (this is part of the expense from asking a shop to do it)
You need to buy a Haynes or Chilton manual and start learning how to do some of the easier stuff on your own. (instead of $350 for CV boots you could pay $200 for new complete axles with a lifetime warranty)
I am sure you would have no trouble doing these thing yourself.
We all know you are not an idiot.
It seems as if you got caught due to lack of information and lack of communication.
Tell us next weekend after you fix the offending part yourself.
Schultz

Yes, it is not the shop owers fault. I realise this.
I just couldn't think of how that the fellow could have not seen the obvious.
But you know... you all are right, when the wheel is turned, the boot collapses inward and looks O.K.
( Still though ... once the wheel is off of the car, doesn't the thing drop down in plain sight ?. )
The guy seems honest enough.
We are still on very good terms. I will go back and get his advice on what to do - but this time, I will think before I act.
So is there anything good that came about by replacing my "C-V joint shafts" instead of the torn boots ?
I would hate to think that I basically just threw away several hundred dollars for nothing.
As far as the car driving funny, well it just feels awkward like the wheels need to be alligned. It also feels stiff.
I can't really comment on it right now because I haven't driven the car except for the three blocks that I live from the shop. I'm sure things just need to be broken in ( I think I actually stated that before. )
Sorry if that I was misleading.

bhazard : Learn to do my own work ? Well ... I live in an apartment. I really, really wish I had a garage like you guys.

If I had a garage, this is what I would be working on : a modified Mazda MX-3
( hybrid electric of course ! No no ... ELECTRIC / hybrid )

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/...81f19c03_m.jpg

I don't see how you all can go on about not blaming the shop. Didn't you tell them to replace the CVJ boots, and wasn't that what was written up on the work order? Then if they didn't replace the boots, and instead replaced an entirely different part, then it seems to me they're obviously at fault.

No. It's my fault. I should have proofread the work order before rushing off.
It states " Replaced both left and right C-V joint shaft . Ck alig "

150 labor and 177 parts.

Whuups :(

If steering has changed so obviously; and if everything is correctly installed, then something must have been quite worn - ripe for failure. Which argues that it wasn't a waste. Does the guy still have the old CV Shafts? How do they look? How do the old CV Joints feel? If they seem questionable, call it aggressive preventive-maintenance.

I don't know about Civic's, but on my Ford Escort a CV-Joint change does NOT require re-alignment - though steering around tight corners does seem improved with new CV-Joints.

Wow, someone got screwed, complete drive axles with new boots, nut, c-clips, and a life time guarantee for a civic are $52 each and the last time I changed a drive axle on my dads civic it took me 20 minutes to do one side.

OK, now that I go back and look at the link to your other post, I see that it is, because those are not the CV boots. They're the boots on your steering linkage. So the shop probably did just what you told them to :-)

If your car uses similar design to the CRX, you can (or could a few years ago, when I replaced one of mine) get rebuilt shaft & joints, with new boots, for $100 or so. You can also get split boots, which glue together to replace a torn boot without needing to remove it from the car. Something similar might be available for the steering boots...

O.K. folks : a question - did '93 Civics ever come without power steering ?

I took the car back to the mechanic. ( This is a guy that is late 40s to early 50s with the greasy, well worn hands of a longtime mechanic, so he is not just some fresh kid that doesn't know jack. )
He said that the part that he replaced had a split in it from being overtightened
"probably by some other mechanic ."
( As far as I know the part on the car was untouched. I am the third owner of the car, and all major work done to the car was documented.)
He said that it was leaking fluid and that this was probably because I did not have power steering.

Uh ... WHAT ?

( I was thinking " Did he just say that ? ) What puzzles me is that he even drove the car around the block after he put on the parts.

Maybe he just needs more rest.

I'd like to think that he is telling the truth, and that what I had replaced actually needed to be replaced.
What puzzles me though is that the guy didn't know that my car had power steering.

I took the fellow over to the car and showed him the split boot. " Oh - that's a factory part. You can't get those except from the dealer. " He said.

About this time I guess he started to see that I was beginning to trust him less and less.

He got on the phone and called his buddy for prices on the boots. I didn't know it but he told the guy to send them on over without me even saying if I was even going to have him put them on.
Blah, blah ... blah ... and I am thinking about this time that I really need something in writing.

I told him I could go for twentyfive but no more. He's doing the labor free, so I can't complain I guess.

My question to you guys is if I should even have the boots put on by this guy or not.


Thank you

As far as the car riding strange, I guess it just needed to be worn in. The car pulls to the right now, but it is not that bad ( At 50 MPH it takes around three to four seconds to pull me into the oncoming lane.

One more question : I changed job locations a few months ago.
Whereas before I could simply walk to work and was honestly putting only a few miles on the car a month, now I drive 14 miles per day.
I've been driving the car like this for the last ( three ? ) months.
Do you guys think that I have damaged the car badly enough to worry about replacing other parts affected by that boot cover ?
If I have the guy just slip on some new boots, won't that just be like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound ?

Kind of, yes. The boot is there to keep dirt and grime out of the grease. It hasn't been doing its job for a while now. That dirt in there will work its way between your parts and cause accelerated wear. At the very least it should be taken apart and cleaned, then regreased and put back together. However, that accelerated wear may still take a good while to actually feel and effect your car. If you are planning on keeping it a good while I'd do this, if not, you might be able to get away with not doing it.

Does your wheel have a lot of free play in it before the wheels actually start turning? IE can you wiggle the wheel without actually turning.

The pull doesn't sound too bad to me, and an alignment is what you need to fix that.

" Does your wheel have a lot of free play in it before the wheels actually start turning? IE can you wiggle the wheel without actually turning."

I'll have to check on this, but I don't think there is any play what-so-ever.
Is this with the ignition on or off ? ( using the power steering )

Here is some thoughts.

First, as you now know, the boot you were referring to is the tie rod boot, not the half shaft boot.

Second, although the mechanic did not replace the tie rod boot, because you told him the halfshaft, he did the halfshaft. The good/bad part is that the boots on the halfshaft, particularly the outer boot just die with time. If the car tie rod boot is that far gone, then there is a very high liklihood that the half shaft rebuilt was or would have shortly become an issue anyway.

However, the mechanic telling you that he did not see the tie rod boot, no there isn't anything else and etc. is 110% pure balarney. That guy has already displayed the fact that he is not ethical or have any integrity. I would not take the car back to him for zip.

I would get the tie rod boot and the end replaced at the same time. The tie rod ends are comparatively inexpensive, but they do wear and get loose. You will need to get the front end aligned, but they should include that in the cost.

Good Luck.

I would check underneath the car to see if the parts that he supposedly replaced looked like they were new or not. It seems very suspicious that if he worked on the car, driving it into the shop, and test driving it after the work was done he should have known it had power steering. I looked back at your previous post and pictures and it was inner tie rod boots that were torn in that picture. If the steering is still tight I wouldn't replace the tie rods right now. You could always jack the car up yourself and try to wiggle the tie rods to see if they have any play or not. Be sure to block up the car with jack stands or something before getting under it though. I have had CV boots tear before and be torn for a long time before I would know it and just put more grease on the joint and replace the boot and have never had any trouble with the CV joints going out. If he replaced an axle the car would most likely have needed realigning. If I could verify that he had replaced what I told him to replace and he was going to do the other work free of labor I would probably let him replace the boots, but if he came up telling me that other parts needed replacing I would take it to a mechanic I trusted and have them check it out before letting him do any other work. If you let him do the work get an estimate from him stating free labor. It certainly sounds like he is trying to work with you on the mistake. It does seem unlikely that he wouldn't notice the other torn boots and at least have mentioned them to you. Good luck.

yes, Definitely do this.

I am 5 days from being 17, and I do All of the work myself.

Why? because it saves you thousands of dollars in the long run, and... you never run into this problem of paying $350 bucks for something you didn't want in the first place.

That job probably cost like, 100 bucks to do yourself, probably not even that now that I think of it. I don't know what they replaced, but most things don't cost over 100 bucks if you do it yourself (unless its like, transmission or something major).

I replaced all 4 shocks and greased all my grease fittings on my Jeep for like, 68 bucks. I don't even know how much it is to get shocks all a round and your fittings greased, cause I do it all myself.

Oh, and first time I got my Jeep, I took it in for a lube job... the description clearly says 5 quarts of oil (6 in my Jeep) and Grease All Grease fittings.

Guess what? I got the Jeep back, and the oil was changed... but there was still an inch of dirt and mud crud on the grease fittings. Uh... yea... Never took my Jeep to anyone other than myself or other Mechanic friends of mine that I personally know from that moment on. and guess what? I know I've already saved a couple hundred dollars right then and there.

Oh, here is something. One quick story.

The I6 in my Jeep has a 90 degree elbow for the oil filter to screw onto. Well after a while, the o-rings get dry rotted and start to leak, so I went to the local dealership and bought the o rings.

$3.34 with tax

Then I went home and tried to take the elbow off, but not enough clearance with my tools, a/c compressor got in the way, as well as some piping and the axle if you went from underneath, and I broke my T60 bit because it was so tight on there. So Next day I went to the dealership and asked how much it would cost for them to do it..

Their reply-

"well, it'd be at least $60 and depending on how many parts we'd have to take off, like if we had to take the a/c compressor or the front axle off, itd cost anywhere from $100-300+ to do it."

I said to myself... F*** it, I'll call my friends up, and we'll get it done for $3.34.

Well guess what, from that one job, I saved up to 300+$$$,

Basically... they charge too much for labor. $300 job just to put in $3 o-rings? you kidding me?

Go out and buy a Hanes manual, and then find an experienced mechanic friend to show you the ropes. you'll be saving cash and stress (I use stress lightly ;) ) in no time! :thumbup:

Oh, you haven any better pictures of that? I can't tell from those pics very good, but it doesn't look like cv joints. more like steering parts. Is that in the wheel well?

If you went in and requested that the mechanic change the CV boots/joints....and the parts that are on the car now are new, then they did exactly what you requested.

The tie rod linkage/steering boots that are torn in your pics are a completely different part. When I used to turn wrenches for a living, we learned quickly to NEVER do any work that was not requested. If we found an additional repair that was necessary (or easy while we were there) we would always call the car owner with a quote before starting the work. If it was simple, we would (for good customers) let them know how to do it themselves if they wished.

The boots are a relatively simple change on these cars, and he may have thought that you just wanted to do it yourself, otherwise you would have requested the work be done.

Someone commeneted on cost. Remember that a shop has much more overhead than your home garage. Salaries, Insurance, tools, inventory, heat etc must all be paid for by the customer. What they are paying for many times is the convenience of not doing it themselves. I was pretty impressed at $350 for 2 halfshafts installed....there are a lot of shops that would charge considerably more.

As long as the work you requested was done correctly, then it appears that you just have another repair pending.

Jim

So would it be a bad idea taking the car to the guy to get the boots replaced when he says it will only cost me $ 25 dollars ? ( for parts with labor free )
I know it is better to do the job right, but at this time I cannot afford to have it done right.
If he slips on new boots, it might be just covering the damage that needs to be replaced underneath, but at least it will be a fix untill it can be done right.
I'm a little confused as to how to tell whether or not any damage has been done already.

I'll repeat why I just don't learn to do the work myself : I live in an apartment that does not allow even simple oil changes. Also, I do not trust my work well enough when it come to a part on the car that could be potentially life threatening to myself and others.

So the car will need to be realigned ? I'll bet that this his 'bait' to get me to pay for an allignment.
What do you guys think ?

So did any Civics come without power steering in '93 ?
I'm still shocked that he would say that. I asked him twice more just to make sure I didn't misunderstand what he said.
He actually thought my car didn't have power steering ( and my car is even an automatic ! )

Weird .

If it is what you can afford to do right now, replacing the booys is still better than leaving the system open to the environment and getting more dirt in there. If he is willing to write off the labor....sure go for it.

Remember though that YOU are choosing to not spend the $$$ to have the system cleaned out or replaced. One day, it will fail (probably not catastrophically....likely it will start leaking fluid...so you will have some warning) and when it does, you will be spending the $$$ anyway, but you might be in a better financial situation to do so then.

As far as the alignment, getting one should straighten out the pull you describe as well as improve tire life and fuel economy if done correctly.

Jim

If he is willing to do the job and replace the boots for $25, then I'd say he is trying to be pretty fair. I would go ahead and let him do just that. The tie rod isn't going to be any worse than it is now, but it will keep dirt out, grease in and extend it's useful service, significantly.

The manual steering box on the civics shouldn't wear out, it can be adjusted to be smoother and take slop out of it, and the boots can be replaced for about $15 each in parts from the Honda dealer, the dx hatcha back didn't come with power steering either.

Honda Automotive Parts

The car shouldn't have to be realigned just to put the boots on as long as he doesn't change any of the tie rod adjustments. As I said before if he did the work you requested before and is willing to do this labor free because of the misunderstanding I'd let him do it. By doing this it sounds like he is being as fair as possible. You could also tell him that you can't afford to have any other work done at the present time, but ask him to take a look at the inner tie rods and let you know their condition while he has the boots off. You could ask if he still has the old parts or not, but it is not likely they probably had to be turned in as cores when he purchased the new ones. The only thing that I don't understand is why he didn't know the car had PS. Have you looked and verified the new parts? If he was just trying to make money off of you he would have definitely told you about the torn tie rod boots when you picked up the car to try to get you to come back. I agree that some mechanics are just out to get you, but this doesn't seem to be the case with this one in my opinion. I use to have a '76 Chrysler Cordoba and I took it in once to have the tires rotated and they tried to tell me it needed tie rods, but what the mechanic didn't know is that I had just checked the front end shortly before and that I had just driven the car on a 500 mile trip the night before and it was driving and handling fine. I probably drove the car another 100,000 miles and never did have to replace the tie rod ends.