Mirror designs, if we can't use cameras yet.
 

...XL1 shows the way.
6 Crazy Wing Mirror Designs You Can't Help But Admire

...in my best Wicked Queen voice: "...mirror, mirror or the car, who's the slipperiest shape by far...?"

http://vtec.carthrottle.com/image/1/...1e3ea3b770.jpg

" This odd contraption is by far our favourite on the list: wing mirror air conditioning. During a race, one of the most difficult factors to control is a driver’s temperature. A traditional air conditioning unit would be unacceptably heavy (though some championships require it for driver safety), so engineers come up with ways of creating openings to force air into the cabin."


The only gripe i have about my old Civic is that the air vents are horrible.
Even when it's not hot out ( rarely here in Texas ), the vents blow ( weak ! ) air that is warm even with the lever all the way to the coldest setting.

This mirror gives me ideas on how to fix that.

Cd, thats a good thing. That means you do not have a wave of pressure at the base of your windshield. Now for jeeps they make deflectors that mount on top of the vent slots to purposely direct air into the cabin.

Why do mirrors need to be mounted on the outside of the vehicle? :D

http://vtec.carthrottle.com/image/1/...4810d48d47.jpg

Too lazy to find a good picture: Dymaxion periscope.

Pagani hisself told Jay Leno the Huayra mirror was based on a woman's eye.

Is it illegal to use cameras in place of sideview mirrors?

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/..._by_State_(U.S.)

Ummm... :(

I would delete both of my side view mirrors if it was legal. With my rear view camera set up, which has a 180 degree field of view, I can see the back of a car coming up beside me in the rear camera, and see the front of it out my side window, so there is no blind spot whatsoever in my car.

Guess it's dead...no wayback either...my bad!

Ram-air aspirated low drag mirrors,SAE R&D
 

Here is an interesting CFD and wind tunnel study of 'passive jet' mirrors.
Results are a bit quirky,and some off-car testing (which is a no-no) but interesting!:Dhttp://www6.miami.edu/acfdlab/public...14-01-0584.pdf

Sweet
*starts holding up various sizes of hole saws to side mirror*

Thanks,aerohead, that's awesome.

The MacLaren mirror reminded me of the funnels on the decks of old steamships.

So the 39% improvement was from the simulation? Maybe that would be supported or improved with some fine-scale refinement:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...70-imagesa.jpg

I'm wondering about a blown or molded clear plastic cap on a 3" peep mirror. It needs more testing in the second configuration.

Edit: Nope, I checked. The swan-necked swivel mount would have to go. An annular ring might replace it, swiveling in a fixed mount.

The best possible solution I can think of for an optical mirror would be to have a "half teardrop" blister in the side window, that lets the mirror be positioned out beyond the side of the car, and has a tapered form behind the mirror that allows smooth attached air flow.

This kinda' messes up an chances of having (much?) of the side window be operable, though.

You mean like this?.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...54af02ce1a1a67

My mirror was also wented to driver to get cool air.

improvement
 

*The wind tunnel numbers did not correlate at all with the CFD results.
*The difference in drag between CFD and wind tunnel did fit.
*One observation:the body of the mirror is investigated without its attachment structure.
*The second observation:The mirror is investigated divorced from the host vehicle and no 'interference drag' investigation is presented.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*For us,only meaningful data would have been provided if all testing were done with the mirror/car combination.
*We're left to speculate on what might happen when the passive-jet mirror is 'ON' the car.
*Also,since the jet is annular,the mirror mount cannot intrude within the mirrors main body,otherwise it corrupts the internal flow.Any adjusting mechanism,or turn signal electricals would not be permitted within the cavity.
*And since the mirror WILL be mounted 'somehow' to the car,the mount itself will affect the jet behind it.
*This being the case,the internal ducting and flow may need to be asymmetrical and 'tuned' such that the emerging jet functions as in the isolated flow study.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really like what they've done,but another,deeper investigation needs to be made,investigating the technology as an aerodynamic 'system' of mirror and host vehicle together.

one Porsche solution
 

The full-race version of the 911 GT moved the mirrors way ahead of the A-pillars to get them into slower air,and they encased them in long,higher fineness ratio housings,kinda like Mair's wind tunnel model.These mirrors might have something on the order of Cd 0.20,excluding the mounting struts.
http://www.porsche-mania.com/wp-cont...he-911-GT1.jpg
Here is Mair's 'template' with the cylindrical elongation removed
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/...ntitled324.jpg

I know it's not the right thing to do, but, can you use cameras on the sides, with a very slim case, but with a double-sided mirror so the camera is behind it? That way you can comply with the regulations and have a very slim sidemirror, as you will have camera displays on board

The SIM-LEI used a minimized optical mirror and a camera:

http://www.greencardesign.com/site/s...iew11_07_0.jpghttp://image.e-nenpi.com/article_ima...131/319495.jpghttp://img.response.jp/imgs/zoom/319840.jpg

Agreed. I'd start with a generic stalk against a flat wall, in order to not particularize the result to any vehicle. And also combine the Maclaren ventilator into the unit.

Vekke -- My guess would be that there is a lot of distortion, viewing through the compound-curved plastic. What do you see?

My home-brew mirror mount causes a lot of vibration, to where I put my thumb on the mirror to de-blur the view. How is it for vibration?

Smokeduv -- That sounds like it should work, but the camera really only needs a pin-hole to view through.

Then it would be even easier :)

I have some very tiny cameras from some medical devices. I might try some... They are not HD, but have a very good quality for a 5 inches display

Video mirror cameras need to handle a wide range of light levels. Having about 90-100 degrees of view would be about ideal. My cameras are anything but HD (I think they are ~360 pixels in the vertical axis?) and that is fine; though more is better.

Having a point of visual reference in the video mirror view is critical. And I recommend a 7"-9" monitor; especially if you have them located away from the driver.

I just read the California rule and while it says you need at least two mirrors that can see the highway 200 feet behind the vehicle and one must be on the left, it does not say they need to be outside.
My old Chevelle has one of those interior mirrors with 5 individual mirrors across maybe 30". The first section or individual mirror is clearly to the left of the center of the car so "technically", this should comply.
What does a fix-it ticket cost these days? I may risk it.

While I love the McLaren vented mirrors, my car already has a cabin air intake...

A design I always wondered about after seeing the Lexus LFA was a mirror sitting right next to the A-pillar with a long housing extending ahead of the windshield. That would presumably weaken the A pillar vortices.

I saw a re-run of the original "The Fast and the Furious" a while ago and noticed that one of the cars had goofy side mirrors. So I thought I might share on this thread as its about better side mirrors, not really sure how much better these would be but wanted to bring them up anyway. Pics:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...ye-d6qpq0g.jpg

Apparently they are called BOMEX mirrors (not sure if it's the brand or style) but found them online for $260 :eek:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ps7c99823a.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ps41d73d97.jpg

Bomex 96-00 Toyota Rav4 3 dr Aero Mirrors Manual(S-038)

Could be a style worth replicating IF its a good compromise between OEM and none at all....

In the 1980s that fillet would have run the full length of the front fender. How about this?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...peepmirror.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3966775&sid=e992301164daf93f90992a 2b14978193#3966775

It's after the A-pillar and being closer to the driver's eye, it can be smaller than otherwise.

A-pillar
 

*Some of the low-drag concepts place the mirror below the cowl level to get them below that accelerated A-pillar flow.(Probe IV)
*Ford has done this with their F-150,which has a special cut down side windows for which to see the lowered units.
*Subaru moved their XT mirrors out 80mm from the body,into slower air and killed most of the interference.
*Ditto with GM Impact.

I had read in the past that Ferrari moved the mirrors high on the A pillar for lower drag on the Testarossa, but that cars drag was such a mess, that it makes me wonder if they made the effort.

http://cliff.hostkansas.com/images/2011b/12_1.jpg

Sure enough, I found this info : "The early Testarossas were fitted with the famous single high mirror, also known as the "flying mirror". The strange location of this mirror was related to a European law regarding the external rear view mirror, which was interpreted by the designer as the need of having 100% rearward visibility. As this simply was an incorrect interpretation of the law, Ferrari later decided (also after many complaints about the single high mirror) to use double low mirrors, first shown on the Geneva show in 1986. The first cars having double low mirrors were s/n 67079 for Euro versions and s/n 67487 for US versions (first US car with Model Year 1987). "

here :Red Headed - Testarossa

http://www.red-headed.com/images/testarossa_mirror1.jpg

My mirror vison was not perfect, but good enough on proto parts. Biggest problem was that all 3 sides were joined to together, so if the sun was from behind it gave some reflections. Also the surface was not fully mirror due to low budjet and my oven manufacturing and vacuum forming methods...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...7381ce198c5818

I did make tuft testing and tufts were fully attached ;).

Solution is to have similar cover, but not make it teardrop in car heigth (Z) direction. So only teardrop the mirror cover in cars width direction (Y).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CShM...PXQ9qn-3dX2unD

Mirror footage is starts at 5.20-

It is positioned high to avoid that high speed air flow at A-pillar corner but also the have it at my eye level
Quite back to get wider look angle and more cool air flow for the driver
My mirror is wide angle so I do not have any blind spots there.

I can make a improved version if you would like to buy them?

I did also make some calculations of the mirror drag:
Frontal area is about 75mmx105mm=0,00788m2 vs regular Lupo 3L mirror (this is smaller than most mirrors already) 120mmx190mm=0,0228m2. That is 2,8 times smaller

This design will lower your fuel consumption about 2-6% depending on the car.

Those race type mirrors that hang at some distance from body are 5 times worse visibility wise compared to my setup. My customers A2 has those and there is very big blind spot there.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...00368b49b31dfb

Mirror frontal area is pretty much same.

Some rough calculations:
stock mirror = 5,2 l/100km@97 km/h or 45.27 MPG us @60mph:Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com

My mirror desing rough estimation:
- delta Cd= 0,010 ( no mirror at all =0,012 drop in cd)
- Frontal area reduction 0,0298m2=calculation based on my lupo 3l mirror frontal area drop
-->5,01l/100km@97 km/h or 46.98 MPG us @60 mph
http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero...ToStep=5-200-5

That is roughly 0,19 liter or 3,7% difference FE at 60 MPH

Take mirrors out:
delta cd in CFD program =0,012 (0,017 in wind tunnel test)
Frontal area drop = 0,0456m2
--> 4.95 l/100km@97 km/h or 47.5 mpg us @ 60 mph
http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero...ToStep=5-200-5

That is 0,25 liter drop from start or 4,9% effect at high speed driving.

Cd estimations are made based on this wind tunnel study: http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/...ext/143193.pdf

I would say my mirror design has even bigger impact to cd than that 0,010 but that is a safe bet as not all cars are the same aero wise...

I came up with a contraption I called the "R.A.M. Mirror" for my VX.

See my post here.

I love it and it works great! I've capped the inside for colder weather.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps64019f49.jpg

R.A.M. Mirror
 

Purists would probably slam you for not using a NACA submerged inlet,but compared to AC on,or windows down,I suspect that you don't pay much of a penalty.
And having it away from the body is good,since it's in slower air.
'suppose the aft-body could be faired.(don't you love how others want to spend your time!):p

Okay, that confuses me. Can you explain what you mean?

Being a noob to aeromodding, it seems like the air traveling right down the length of the car would slow down as it met resistance and follow along with the car a bit, and that the air farther away from the car would be at a standstill, making it "faster" by creating more resistance.

Everybody school me here, I'm interested but ignorant!

explain
 

*As the car attacks the stationary air mass,the imaginary streamline filaments which comprise the air must accelerate from a standstill,to whatever velocity they'll reach,as a function of displacement.
*Around the windshield,the air can be up to twice your driving speed,depending how the air is divided by the cars body.
*As you can see in the photo of the Golf/Rabbit,the streamlines are crowded together near the top of the windshield
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/...titled-3-2.jpg
*From Daniel Bernoulli's research we know that this displacement requires the increased velocity.
*The farther and farther we move away from the body,the displacement effect of the body diminishes,and the air moves at lower velocity and higher static pressure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The air around the A-pillars is fast,just as at the windshield header,and by moving a structure away from the body sides,it encounters slower air,reducing its drag due to the velocity-cubed relationship to aerodynamic power,and also interference drag associated with it.
*Subaru,during the development of their 1986 XT sport coupe,was able to eliminate the drag of the side-view mirrors by moving them 80mm outboard of the doors.
*This can also reduce aero-acoustic effects,minimizing wind noise.

got it, thanks for the explanation without me having to read through 20 separate threads!

I understand the windshield dynamics from the pic, but does it do the same thing in the mirror area? I don't ever remember seeing a wind tunnel pic from a kind of 45 degree-ish angle to where you could see what happens right at the junction of the lower windshield and the pillar where the mirror sits. All the pics I can find just show the side view.

mirror area
 

We don't get a bunch of plan-view images for this sort of thing.
I'm gonna try a link to the Masters Thesis on Mirror Drag from Sweden which Vekke shared with us.
In the text,some plan-view CFD velocity/pressure profiles are provided for a Mercedes-Benz A-Class car
http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/...ext/143193.pdf

Awesome, thanks for the link, I found some good pics in it to kind of use for a template.

Here's where I'm confused about as far as moving the mirror way out to the side (see pic below), and what I was asking in the first place. It seems like there's an eddy right created at the base of the pillar, so tucking a small mirror in right there seemed to me to be the best idea for placement.

Or is that eddy created from the mirror and the mirror stalk?

Thanks for the help!

eddy
 

That is an A-pillar Vortex,and it's created by the discrepancy in pressures and velocities between the A-pillar area itself (very fast-moving low-pressure air) and slower/higher-pressure air on the side of the car.
The high-pressure side flow bleeds into the low-pressure A-pillar flow,attempting to reach equilibrium pressure, and shearing forces within the viscous air create the rolled-up cyclonic flow exactly as warm moist Gulf air rising off a Colorado plain meets fast-moving air in the jet-stream above creating the meso-cyclone super-storms which will set down later as tornadoes in Kansas.
Again,the very fast A-pillar flow is the culprit.You don't want anything near it.

Thanks for the explanation! I understood about a third of it, but I'm taking your word for it cause nobody goes to those lengths to explain something wrongly!

In light of that, I think what I really need is a camera driven projected holographic mirror to replace my plastic one! Wonder if that would technically be legal since it would be outside of the car?