Mistfit Talon, a little bit bent but not broken
 

Just a update on my Mis-fit Talon.

I had Daox remove all my post due to some legality's on the Talon to meet the Federal Emission requirements?

I'm working with our local Idaho State University and the EPA, and Federal emissions, to try to make my Talon exempt for lean burn testing purpose only. I have explained that this is only for experiment reasons and not for resale of any product.

So far its been explained to me that as long as I don't' drive it on Federal roads, the State will have the final say as long as the vehicle passes State Emissions and Federal Safety Rules.

At this point and time I can run the factory Federal eprom chip legally and use my lean burn chip on non-Federal roads for testing.

So now I'm working on mapping out a "factory OEM delayed OL load factor threshold", "Immediate OL load factor threshold", and "open loop throttle factory threshold". In other words stock eprom map.

After all this, it's not looking good.:( I will most likely have to kill my project and go on to something else.

So my future options will be a VX Honda or a three wheel auto where the sky's the limit.

Sorry you came up agains those roadblocks. Kudos for attempting it!

3-wheel: Elio! I've reserved one.
Elio Motors: Ultra High Mileage Vehicle

Their blog, with excellent info updates:
www.eliomotors.wordpress.com

And how is it that the big bad EPA or any agency from the federal government knows what your car is running? I may have missed the story in your previous posts.

Thanks

I'm going to reserve one today!!!

So far they don't know? But I was planing on doing some Press Interviews so they would know then for sure.:(

I was told from a forum member that my Talon is illegal because it never was a "Lean Burn " vehicle from the factory? He was right even though it passed our State local emissions?

So my plans are to keep moving forward and to continue doing lean burn testing on "off road" non-Federal roads and switch back to my Federal ecu for public roads. It only takes about 30 seconds to switch the ecu back and forth;)

Cool! Welcome to the Elio world!

Refundable reservations in increments $100-$1000 go into an escrow account.
NON-refundable reservations get you a 50% increase in the value of your deposit at purchase time. I went with non-refundable but in a mount I can afford to lose, if it comes to that.

I'm going non-refundable also.;)

Trying to decide on transmission? What are you going with?

At 84 MPG factory I don't see why one of use should be able to pull over 100 MPG?:thumbup:

Standard trans for me, absolutely. Much more opportunity for fuel savings using pulse & glide or EOC.

But you don't decide the trans till some later time.

On Facebook, you can join the Elio Motors Owners Association. A search will find it. Some good discussion there. You'll need to send a screen shot of a deposit confirmation to one of the moderators there, to join.

There's also an official Elio Motors FB page but it gets the same noob questions ad nauseum.

You got some $%^& good free legal advice. Glad to hear you actually listened and saved YOURSELF a lot of heartache. Maybe you should think a little before running off at the mouth about ridge removal in another post and insinuating that someone who gave you about $500 in free legal advice knows more than you wish to ASSume.

I've spent a lifetime dealing with people, from curbside pharmacists to 4 star generals. I don't question your abilities and I would like the same respect in return.

If you don't like the laws and regulations then go to the source and have them changed, as I have done when threatened (not by you). Attacking my integrity and knowledge will not change anything.

I recommend a forum truce between us. Strong personalities tend to have their own ways and methods based on a lifetime of experience.

60k hours of experience here and never a summons to appear in court and answer for my actions, regardless of justification. Ignorance of the laws is no excuse, and when a judge tells you that you are in serious trouble.

Mech

How about moving the drivetrain into another vehicle?
 

Anything older than 1975 is exempt from emissions in practically all areas.

Also, the ability to switch between a legal and a non legal setup should allow you to test in non Federal jurisdictions and continue to use the vehicle on Federal roads as you implied.

As you move along in your research, you may require a research exemption. But, that is usually for a period of time. You cannot drive your vehicle indefinitely on such an exemption.

Mech

Your advise wasn't why I had the Moderator's delete my "Lean Burn Build" thread!!! It was the innuendo threat of you turning me in for a Federal emission violation.
As for the ridge removal tool I didn't think it was you that did the engine that broke the ring? I thought it was someone else and you were the one that found the problem after the fact? I'm sure you have used one or know someone that has? This was very common practice in the 70's and 80's. I did several engines this way without ever having a ring break!!!!!!!!

Thanks RustyLugNut!!! This is what I'm going to do.;) In search of a pre 1975 car???

I have way to much time and $$$ invested in this to kill this thing.

In my business I had to stay ahead of an almost daily "smarter than you" type who it took about 10 seconds to realize that they thought every recommendation I made was driven by greed instead of integrity. It cost me money every day to live by a standard that was legally unassailable.

You still just don't get it buddy. You were heading down a pathway that could have earned you hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and even prison time, so now your response is to accuse me of potentially ratting you out to the FEDS as your rationale for the actions you took. Having been the subject of legal attacks from omnipotent beaurocrats who considered themselves untouchable, legally, I guess it's beyond your comprehension that even though we have butted heads here I would not wish that on anyone.

So now I am a cowardly back stabbing god only knows what else in your seriously warped perception. I got it and I wont forget it, but I still would never intentionally cause you to have to deal with a felony count for every single individual act for which you could be charged separately. In spite of your arrogance and total lack of any gratitude for what MY actions have potentially saved you from. Emotional torture and financial ruin are terrible lessons and a terrible price to pay for ignorance.

Mission accomplished, you are no longer ignorant of the legal consequences of publicly revealing your lack of knowledge (it's called evidence). Regardless of how you choose to dance around that fact it still potentially saved your bacon.

Some of the know it alls who came in my shop tried to prove me wrong, they took risky actions to save a few bucks. Most I never saw again (they were like you). Some actually had the guts to come back and admit that they had been through a painfull process of trail and error and they actually understood why I refused to use my customers as a "guinea pig" . I still don't know, since you are good at witholding facts until they benefit yourself, if you ever operated a licensed repair shop that dealt with thousands of customers for decades and through hardwork and integrity build a loyal clientelle that even to this day is highly loyal to the Man who learned the trade in my shop and now owns it.

I don't understand how so many people pull their emissions equipment, calling it "off road" parts.

No one takes their Mustangs off road- I can't believe this is such a big deal when there are forums filled with others doing the same thing. Well, except they want more power and loudness, nothing else.

OK cool:confused:

Are you done, so can I have my thread back?

Thanks
Russell

I'm done when YOU stop making false statements about me, such as stating that I was the one who rebuilt the engine that had the piston failure, which is patently false and has no basis in fact. I asked politely that we just let it go, state our points without passing judgement and posting opinions that are presented as facts. Your choice, not mine.

Fact

You were posting information that had potentially catastrophic consequences for you. I advised you about the legal ramifications of YOUR actions. You come back with the insinuation that I was going to initiate a legal process by informing some fictitious person of authority who MIGHT pursue that legal situation.

Regardless of our adverse communications I have not, will not, and have no intention of ever engaging in that kind of action. While your vindictive response about what you considered as a threat by me, when it was nothing more than advice that could have saved you a crapload of grief. That response was a pitiful attempt to make good advice, in fact, free legal counsel, something much more insidious that it ever was or would be.

I will respond to that kind of character assasination as long as you initiate it. The choice as to where we go, in that respect, on this forum or anywhere on the internet, is yours.

My goal is constructive imput and my wish to help people when I think that is possible. Yours, from the evidence you continue posting concerning your false conclusions that affect the perception of my character and integrity as percieved by those who read this forum and appreciate the uncompensated assistance they might recieve from a member with 60,000 hours of experience working on cars.

Maybe that attitude is so ingrained in your personna that it is unavoidable. Your best solution is to just pretend that my posts do not exist. Please put me on your ignore list. I would consider it as a favor.

Off road x pipes - Mustang Evolution

Seems rediculous. I am sure people all over are doing this, and advertising on forums, but I have never heard of anyone being contacted.

I remember a episode of Sanford and Son where the old man pulls the label off a mattress then reads it.

"Do not remove under penalty of law"

I wonder what the sentence would be for someone convicted of such a hideous criminal act as removing a label off and old mattress.

regards
Mech

I think that is only if removed is not the owner. I can remove mine, but if I removed yours, it would be bad. I'd have to check my info on it, first, though.

Mech,

You are very confusing?
So I was right in my first post. ^^^^^

You did not rebuild the engine that had the failure? My argument was in my experience in building engines, one can have great success using a ridge remover tool. As I already told you. So it looks to me that we disagree on a engine building procedure? That's cool with me:thumbup:

I'm not trying to get into a big toe measuring contest with you, but... I own and operate a very successful businesses!!! I build 1000+ HP 2.0L engine's for fun. I break a ton of parts doing so. Its part of the game pushing the envelope with BMEP numbers that even Nascar and F1 engineers can appreciate.

Your name should be "Old Lawyer" instead of "Old Mech" I would even hire you. :D

Mech,
chill out, this is just a car forum???

Your absolutely right!!! In my world (EFI Tuning)there are a ton of people breaking Federal rules when you really get down to it.

Ridge reaming does not solve cylinder wall taper and ovality. Installing new rings in an engine, lke that, is a waste of effort. The cylinders are no longer perfectly parallel and they are not perfectly round. It would be better to check the ring end gap on the original rings and if they were in specs clean and reinstall. The same ridge that develops as an engine wears also wears the outer upper point of the top ring. While ridge reaming keeps the top ring from breaking as it contacts the ridge that you have removed.

New rings can seal a tapered bore but they are expanding and contracting on every up and down movement of the piston. New rings will not seal a bore that has ovality wear. Of course a tapered bore will always have a ridge.

The development of better alloys combined with far superior lubricants allowed engine life to triple over the past 5 decades, even with perfect maintenance. Reduction in emissions, fuel injection, lead free fuel, better ignition and other factors were also contributors.

If there is no measurable wear in the cylinder walls, no ridge, no taper, and no ovality, and the cylinder is factory original then the engine should never have needed a rebuild in the first place. According to your statements that is the norm on high mileage but well maintained D series Honda engines that were not abused. The vast majority of engine die of abuse and neglect.

The exception to that rule is a car that sat a long time and had rusty cylinder walls due to open intake and exhaust valves in a humid environment.

When Chevrolet first offered the small block in 1955, intital customer feedback showed extreme oil consumption to the tune of a quart in 200 miles in a brand new car. GM's solution was to pour Bon Amid down the carburetor to add an abrasive to help with ring seating!

regards
Mech

From what I have read the Feds are concentrating on repair shops that are forging emissions certifications. I could not find a single instance of a prosecution of an individual, but I didn't look very hard.

My assumption would be they go after gross violators and possibly those with deep pockets. Most cases are strong enough that the defendants want nothing to do with a judge or jury and try to plea bargain ther way into lower sentences, because the prosecutions case is basically air tight.

Bottom line is if you have significant assets and are doing it for profit then you are a target. Particularly licensed businesses.

regards
Mech

No individual is at risk of prosecution for emissions tampering with their own vehicle by the federal government. If we were at risk, any Ecomodder member who has modified their intake to be a WAI would be in trouble. Car owners all over the country install non-EPA approved parts and make modifications that break the same rules as you are.

I 100% agree!!! :thumbup:

I am not sure if this is correct :/

Something like this? I was surprised how many old cars showed up.

"1971 custom ford ranchero gt - $850 (tucson)"
selling 1971 custom ford ranchero gt

How much would you want to keep stock? It has a shiny engine and almost everything else is rusted or missing.

It's absolutely correct. Check out the EPA website, they list all the cases they go to court for. In 2013 they sued 25 defendants for violations of the Clean Air Act. Most of those violations were asbestos related, about 6 of them were car emissions related.

Every single case was against a business or an individual who owned their own business. All of the car emissions charges were against auto repair shops, or individuals who had licenses to perform vehicle inspections. All of those cases involved people giving out fraudulent emissions certificates. Basically, they passed cars that didn't pass the test. All of those cases involved at least 50 vehicles.

The EPA doesn't care what you do with your own car. They don't have the resources to care. The EPA isn't spying on EcoModder members, waiting to bust anyone who modifies their intake to get more gas mileage. They bust business and people who violate laws on a mass level, or who clearly violate public safety by doing something like demolishing a building without removing asbestos, polluting the air around the community.

Now this doesn't mean you can't get in trouble locally. The states inspect your car, and the police in your state can bust you for several automotive equipment laws. But if you can pass the state emissions test and vehicle inspection, you are not at any risk for prosecution.

Guys I really appreciate all the feed back, keep it coming!!!:thumbup:

Just to be clear, they do not have any ability to prosecute/file charges against someone, or they decide not to? I inferred your original statement as no individual can have action taken against them for disturbing their emissions systems- but then your next post directs more so that we are too small of fish to care about.

I said we are not at risk, not that it is impossible. The EPA receives thousands and thousands of complaints each year over a variety of issues. Unless you guys know something I don't, there is no way the EPA would charge pgfpro for tuning and modifying his personal vehicle for his own purposes. Out of the thousands of complaints the EPA receives each year, they only have time for a few cases. And they are the big violators. Fraud on large levels. No risk for a lone EcoModder.

Zero % risk, to me, means impossible. I am not sharing my personal view about such broad topics on an open forum, but I am not concerned about him- I think he will be okay :thumbup:

But I do think it's a disservice to individuals who do not do detailed research, read that post, and think that there is no risk. There is. It is against the law to tamper with emissions systems. The only solid legal writing I could find was on the details of the catalytic converter, but that is why I stopped searching and came back here- hoping you already had a source.

Good news, I have been giving access again this year to a private runway service road for testing. I can use pretty much anytime I need it.:cool: So this year I will continue my testing from 40 to 45 mph. The best mpg in the Talon last year was around 55 mph.
EDIT:
Light Load Stock Settings.
2350 rpm
14.7:1 A/F
1.03 BSFC
15.14 BSAC
11.46 lbs./hr fuel
168.4 lbs./hr air
28 mpg @ 53 mph

Light Load Lean Burn Settings "private road test"
2350 rpm
30:1 A/F
0.56 BSFC
16.80 BSAC
6.26 lbs./hr fuel
188 lbs./hr air
53 mpg @ 53 mph

How much road horsepower does it take for your car to cruise @ 55mph?

pgfpro im with these guys. im an inspection mechanic in a very strick emissions state. a customers vehicle is subject to individual STATE regulations.

not sure how your state is but in pa 1974 and older are totally exempt and dont require a sticker. 1975-1995 require VISUAL anti tampering inspection (egr,air,pcv, fuel cap, fuel flap, cat) 1996+ require an obd2 check. our states emissions program (like most other states) is total bull.

If someone gets butthurt at you and seriously reports it to the government i doubt anything would happen to you. If something does happen just make sure you have all your factory emissions equipment (i have a complete book of what the cars came with from the factory) and tell them to go s*^t in their hands and clap.

lets put it this way i have a 2000 ford focus with a mustang drivetrain in it and there are ways to pass it legally.

Heh-heh, but nobody can pass your Taur-ang on the highway!

Around 9.5 WHP @ 53mph

I had the wrong mph in my post.

If I did the math right about 21% thermal efficiency? On lean burn.

I come up with a engine number around 23% BTE with my 15 % drive-train loss. Around 11.2 FWHP, with a heating value around 44k LV and a CE of .97

Keep in mind I'm running a auto with AWD.

Federal emissions started in MY 1966. To be completely clear of issues, I'd go back to then.

In California, the CHP would look for, and cite emissions modifications. Mainly around kid hangouts or tracks.

Good idea in general not to advertise anything in the gray, whatever you choose.