multi throttle body geo 1.0 liter
 

So I need a few more hp.

When I hook up to a towing load of say another geo metro I can barley pull it. Not up really steep hills at all. Stop with the dumb ass dont tow with your geo.
I have installed the 4 cyl fly wheel on the 3 cyl and bumped the compression up. I dont really want to do a 4 cyl conversion and or a turbo. So I was thinking of a weber 32/36 or just adding one or two more throttle bodies to a custom intake and tie the linkage together. Use the sensors on just one TBI. Probbaly a balance tube (vacuum) of some type to help the MAP out if its a issue.

I'm wondering if there will be a issue of the ecm trigger for the injector failing from driving the one or two extra injectors. I read some where that some one used a external injector trigger on hondas to trigger different injectors in one of the engine swaps but cant find the artical now.

I know a carb would be easy but injection would look cool and probably be more effiecent? Plus it would be cheaper to go with tbi's for me.

Any ideas? I need to get the flanges cut for the carb or TBI's and the manifold to base gasket asap so I can get towing again.

I buy sell geo's on the side and its nice to be able to get the good gasmileage going to pick them up and hauling them back but I have gotten in situations with steep hills latley.

Plus I am building a geo metro into a small rv trailer to tow camping kinda like a tear drop but a whole GEO metro and it tows like a 5 wheel. Got the idea watching this you tube video. I'm not planning on going far just staying in north america mostly unless I can make it all float.

Also I was thinking of taking a TBI off a bigger engine like 4.3 chevy or v-8 chevy and adapting that?



http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...per+trailer%21

I know some guys on 240sx and some other cars used GSXR 750 throttle bodies. It was an individual throttle body set up. You could possibly look for a bike with a 1000cc motor that utilized individual carbs. Pretty quick and easy, the toughest part would be tuning the carbs for use on a car instead of a high revving bike. Good luck and keep us posted on what you come up with.

It surley looks like a drunk fest with two geos drafting that close. The throttle bodys are different in they dont have injectors in them. Bike carbs or weber all the same its about cfm's. But the trigger for ecm is what i worry about failing. be nice to have 3 super beffy TBIs snorting and ready to tear up a 350 z on the free way.

Just find one at the junkyard with the towing package, and get parts off it.

Going up hill, it's pretty much just mass, gravity and power. Lower mass would help. Less gravity, but that might make it hard to breathe. More power means more air and fuel in the right ratio. Might be able to reduce driveline losses a little bit, but I don't think there's much low-hanging fruit on the Metro, driveline-wise.

Have you thought about putting another engine in the back of the car? http://www.carlustblog.com/2008/02/car-lust--twin.html

Or maybe from our very own MetroMPG: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ailer-201.html

Normally aspirated engines can usually be modified to make more power, but it can get expensive, what with porting/polishing, exhaust, modified intakes, etc. I put a Weber on my wife's 1.5 liter Tercel, and that seemed like just barely enough engine for the carb. If you're looking at motorcycle carbs, match the horsepower, not the displacement, and it should work reasonably well. (For instance: a 650cc motorcycle engine making 65 hp at 8,000 rpm needs about the same airflow as a 1000cc car engine making 65 hp at 5,000 rpm.)

Nitrous could work, maybe, as long as you don't need the extra power for an extended period of time (and have a ready supply of spare engines for when you blow this one up).

As far as hitching a trailer to the roof of your car, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be a disaster. But I'm known to lack imagination.

From your description you really don't want to raise HP as much as raise torque as your trying to pull something .
What rpm range are you in most of time doing this .

Multiple throttles/carbs while will help top end HP will lower low end torque most times .
What you want is intake with long runners and not to wide ports but if you car is carbed you limited to what you can do .
Unless your willing to up rpm to gain power (like change gearing) there not much you can do to increase torque at same rpm, other than FI or bigger displacement .

You don't match on horsepower, it wouldn't necessarily be off of displacement either, but displacement would be a better mode. It is off of cfm airflow. You may be right in a 650cc motor at 8,000 rpm may flow the same as a 1000cc motor at 5,000 rpm. That is how you match it, cfm. Not off of horsepower. Horsepower is a contigent upon many things, not just the throttlebodies.

J

So i'm looking at some differnt goe heads i have here and some carbs. i know there is more power to be had in a carb. how much i'm not sure but I'm not after much and i'm not even looking to go faster just drag it up to speed a bit faster. I think i can snake in some TBI's to fit the engine compartment and look fairly clean. Obviosly i'll have to have cam ground but thats cheap and fast. I just feel like if i just had a smidge more power i woudl be okay but i dont know how much a smidge is? Since i have never worked with a engine with such a small TBI it looks to me that this motor is screaming to breath? I know on the VW i have built in the past when i went to dual 40 mm webers the cars got better mileage cruising. not sure why but never saw adown side to that upgrade. was kinda thinking of that here on the geo giivng every cylinder its own carb or tbi.

the roof connection in the video looked a bit insane to me so i am installing a center post from floor to roof and then the ball is inatlled in it. lets the sheet metal become part of the over all strenght.

Now i just need to figure out the disc brake conversion from a swift

This sounds like a interesting project watercat. I look forward to future updates. You can look at Mikuni too. They do motorcycle carbs mainly, but I am sure you can find and application or an older application you can source cheaply to work with your needs.

http://www.mikuni.com/index.html

J

this will NOT improve anything and ...
 

stop this
it is not going to provide the results you seek no matter how you twist it

you can not make a 44 magnum from a 22 long rifle

using the funds you would have frit-turd away on your non functional abortion ...

buy an old truck / suv / large American rear wheel drive car to use as your tow beast and drive your geo the rest of the time

it will be cheaper and better and you will have a happier life .

thank me

ITB's off a 1000cc or up motorcycle might help along with a little porting
ditch the computer and go carbed!

I agree.
With what you are doing, even a downsize truck (toyota, s10, ranger, etc) would work better, and SAFER, as towing any Geo out there is going to excede the tow rating, brakes and suspension of a Metro.

Is saving / making money worth the safety risk (to you and EVERYONE on the road around you)?

Everything I've read about ITBs and bike carbs on small cars leads this: Better top end power, possibly less low end torque (depends on runner lengths), and in the case of carbs-- far worse fuel economy and with webbers, far more tweaking when the weather changes.

If you must stick with Geos for towing (don't just think about the engine, think about how safely it can handle and STOP that weight), there is simply no replacement for displacement. The 4 banger is your next step.

Beyond that, just find a 4 banger S10 or Ranger with a 5 speed.

^^^ carb's get worse? properly tuned I've noticed the exact opposite.

EFI is always better at fuel economy, it's always self-tuning. You can only optimize a carb for certain conditions.

There's not a single car that I can think of (Bar the CRX HF when it was introduced, but the VX/HX do the same job with double the power) that had better fuel economy with a carb setup. And never have I heard of anyone downgrading a EFI car to carb for fuel economy, always the opposite.

my 84 rx7 would get 22hy 15-17city EFI, I switched to dual ITB style carbs with a good tune and would regularly get 30highway upper 20's city- EFI might be better because most people don't take the time to tune the car, also i'm talking specifically about EFI systems prior to 1995 at which point they pretty much got it right. before that i think you could do better with a simple carb and proper tune

What you need is more engine. I suggest putting an axillary engine on the trailer that can push it uphill. Could be a motorcycle engine with a cvt, though buying an old mazda or toyota pickup would be much easier and sane.

OK, besides terrible Mazda setups that were introduced in the Reagan era... The RXs were not the epitome of reliable, efficient, or normal.

Their efi systems were pretty similar to most rwd Japanese cars of the time but i wasn't saying carbs are best in all situations, and from what I've seen lighter 80s-90s cars can sometimes be more efficient with well tuned carbs


he should just hook a remote throttle to the tow vehicle so it can help out uphills

Lets put aside whether multiple carbs/TB will help low to mid range power issue .They have a few issues compared to single throttle plates .
1) mpg will generally go down, so will the rate of intake vacuum to throttle position (unless you find some really small TB body's ) which means not as good low end torque .
2) tuning up and keeping a nice smooth idle and good low end is compounded by the multiple TB plates , its very hard to keep them all in sync even with return springs for each TB linkage .I would say if OEM has an option then that may work better but if you have to make it all up you will probably have trouble here .

You need more torque not hp - hp is a function of maths :

hp = (lb/ft * rpm) / 5252

Torque is the twist your engine makes when you press the go pedal. To get more torque throttle bodies will not help much. Not even if you got superbike ones. Superbikes don't need much torque so they just rev higher.

To get more torque you have three choices in order of difficulty :

1. Buy / borrow / rent a tow barge - truck, car, whatever.
2. Add a turbo - turbo means more torque at lower engine speeds.
3. Convert to Diesel - unlikely to work unless you want to restrict yourself to ~50mph due to the lower redline (4K vs 6.5 in the Petrol)

If you go with 2 or 3 you will find the clutch is no longer your friend as it wasn't designed for the level of torque being produced. It also probably was not designed with towing either. 2 will also require reworking to the FI system and maybe some head work to reduce the compression ratio. Option 3 I think has only been done with a Kubota which is not a car engine and won't work well.

Go for 1, it makes sense.

^ I agree. A metro isn't, and was never meant to be, a tow vehicle. A small pickup or SUV would serve your needs far better.

Well I just need to find a 40/50 mpg tow vehicle?

So last night we were working on the GEO hauler. Came up with a few fixes for towing that sound promising. First one is the hauler from what we could find should weigh 650 to 750 lbs more than the tow rig or it is recommended that you install dually rear wheels. Makes since to me gives it more friction on the ground and stops the ass end from being pushed around in town around the sharp turns. I'm off to find a set of extra rims today and will start building a dually set of rims to test with.

Also bought a 4 cyl swift with a manual and I think will start with that. Better brakes and more HP right out of the hole. Be nice to have a small table for my PC and drink holders paper work etc. so were going to pull the passenger seat and install a nice table top on the seat slider. If were a bit short on power I'm going to add a two barrel carburetor. that should get us but if we need a smidgen more i have enough spare stuff around to turbo the 1 ton dually. Still looking for a some rear disc brakes.

For hauling the automatic Geo's I was going to go with a rimco electric transmission pump. But after reading up on the simple install I have decided since the car is dedicated to hauling I'm installing a power steering pump on the tow hauler and running lines to the rear of the car on quick disconnects, I'll hook them together at the rear bumper when not in use and they will just circulate the atf in the lines and the pump should last forever. can top it off if some spills right from under the hood like it was stock on the car. at the disconnects at the bumper I'll have to build a wand for a suction tube that will go in the dipstick tube so that the pump can draw the atf out of the transmission. When hauling with a rimco trans pump in your rv they have you take the pan off the trans and install a nipple to hook the line to. but since I'm just towing them back to my shop one time a wand in the dipstick tube will work out just fine. then I will a have to take off the trans cooler line that feeds back to the transmission at the radiator and hook up the other line off the hauler and put a rubber vacuum style cap with a clamp over the radiator trans cooler fitting so it doesn't drip and kill fish while I'm towing.
Its a day of hassle to get it set up i'm sure but to not have to take a Dolley and that extra weight sure makes it nice to just flat tow with my geo tow bar i built.
I'd pretty good towing now but i just want to make it bullet proof. I tow every where but on snow. but if i had all wheel drive geo I'd be there too.

I do have a ford to tow with but the savings with the geo and the people i buy and sell cars with it really gives me some extra advertising or name recognition when i show up and haul in or out a geo. Just last week i was dragging a Geo out from about 150 miles away and I got a few thumbs up from the import cruiser guys. But I am getting 43 mpg on the way to the car to be towed and 20 plus on the way back so i'm getting about 30 or better for the most part towing with my geo.
FYI you cant tow another geo with out upgrading the 3cyl to a 4cyl flywheel and clutch. But the 3cyl wont go up steep hills around town with out being able to hit the at full speed like you would on the free way. Also I have towed with a old warn out Nissan pick up and Toyota pick up that should have 100hp (worn out though) and they had more than enough to haul. so if i get this new swift in the 75 to 80 hp and its lighter than the trucks i think I'll be good.
What kind of a eccomodder site recommends a SUV for anything except a trade in.

If you are towing a lot and towing Geos might I suggest a TDI.

You will get the same MPG, no issues towing a Metro (smaller) and large enough for paperwork etc.

I could do that, but where is the fun in doing some thing any one can do. What i need to do is find a battery for my EV geo that lets me drive 400 miles and weighs about 80lbs. i think the cure for cancer may be easier than that battery. I'm a geo guy its tough to just switch over. Reminds me of the time i was thinking about going out with this chubby chick. Just couldnt do it?

I see them pushing motor homes down the freeway all the time. I cant wait to be on a hill and have atruck next to me with a tow dolley and i have to drop the hammer and pass em. Lucky i have an in car camera mounted for just that moment, also so I can prove to the cop that i was doing 175mph not 75mph. com'on now.

:rolleyes:

If I wasnt trying so hard to get good gas mileage I have a rx-7 engine that would fit nicely into a swift. be nice to know what rpm it would turn and caculate the fuel burn based on that to see what you would have before doing a conversion to find out that its fuel sucker. I hate gas stations more than cops.

Are you trolling or what? :confused:

Trolling? talkin about tow'in. asking questions and enjoying how no one actaully answers the question you asked. But gives advice on every thing but. seems to me that if we were trollingh it would be in some thick stuff and high waters would be in order. Be nice to Be out fishing right now, but i'm working away on my EV metro and trying to figure out how to post videos right to this thread or if you have to youtube it then link it.

How about the swift GT engine with a turbo and the cam reground the same as the XFI engine? that way you would have a small 4 cylinder engine that will bolt right in with alot of low end torque and a bit of boost for when you need to make it up a big hill.
I think there is also alot to be said for a tuned intake based off the stock throttle body because I agree, from what I've read the independent throttle bodies mostly help with high revs.
I also don't see the point in disk brakes, they are less likely to lock up and they have less over all stopping power along with being a costly swap, also a single wider tire offers less rolling resistance then a set of dual rear wheels/tires, the draw back of the wide tire is that it's less stable so it does not handle as well, the increased mileage is why you see some semi's with single wide rear wheels/tires and single wide trailer tires, so a set of 175 or 185 wide rear tires would work for you and even be available as a low rolling resistance tire without the work of making hubs for dual wheels and because you will have very little weight on the rear of the car the handling should not be an issue.

I was about to put a bunch of quality advice down on the slim chance he isn't trolling, but upon further reflection, I think this case is futile.

If you have the skill make yourself a bigger intake manifold that can handle one big throttle body (one off a north star v8) and K&N style filter mounted to the throttle body. Just need a vacuum line for your map sensor. Another route would be change out your exhaust to something that lets your motor breath a little better, upsize about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Exhaust would be easier; I do not know your skill level with fabrication. Fastest thing that you can try would be; take the entire air box off and just mount a filter to your throttle body (Atv or motorcycle size, foam or K&N style). I did that to my Eldorado and felt like it had a nice increase in power, sounded nice too accelerating.

trolling towing ...
 

trolling towing ... sounds about the same
some people do not know , what they do not know .
and
you can not polish a turd

imho the OP needs a large bucket of TP ( turd polish ) for his un-brilliant idea that many more skilled people have already shown will never work

If you want to know about Geo Metro 1 liters, go to TeamSwift.com. Thats a group of people who specialize in all things Suzuki Swift, which is where the geo comes from, essentially the same motor since 1982, with updates over the years, from carbed to tbi to efi, from dist to crank triggers for ignition. Turbo or non turbo, engine swaps, upgrades and mods. Bike carbs are popular where smog inspections aren't an issue if you want hp, but sacrifice daily driving ease. Look em up

Itbs are sure to remove any chance of low range torque that you might have had using that triple knocker, unless hou do some sonic tuning for helmholtz (SP) frequency and specifically design an intake runner which takes advantage of it and keeps intake velocity high enough to retain a high volumetric efficiency.

You may not like the idea, but adding a turbo that will spool at 2.5-3k rpm and a dump injector on a MAP switch will get you a quick boost in power when you need it, cheaply and safely.

You don't need to be concerned with overloading your suspension if all you're doing is flat towing or dolly towing. If you're trailering at all, install overload springs and rear tires rated for more load than the 155R12 that came stock. You may consider something in the range of a 175/70R13, mostly having ratings of ~1300lbs at 35-40 psi, as I recall. Plenty for your application.

Get yourself an rv brake actuator that hooks into your trailer plug, and a brake controller. This will allow you to use the towed vehicle's brakes to assist stopping/slowing.

On the same note as intake tuning, the exhaust, particularly the manifold, is equally important. "Backpressure" requirements are wholly a myth. Tune a custom header to the rpm range that you require more torque for, then select a pipe diameter and length that will support proper fluid velocity and meet helmholtz frequencies for your engine configuration.

Towing a Wildfire from Chicago to California: NO PROBLEM!
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showt...t=24446&page=6
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/IMG_0795.jpg
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/IMG_0866.jpg
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1251737587
3B21-smart fortwo (North American version)
Engine type Three cylinder, DOHC
Displacement 999 cc
Bore x stroke 72.0 x 81.8 mm
Compression ratio 10:1
Fuel type Premium unleaded gasoline
Peak power 50 kW (68 PS) at 6000 rpm
Peak torque 92 N·m (68 ft·lbf) at 3000 rpm

COMPARE TO Cultus 1300 G13B
Smart 3-cyl 50 kW vs Cultus 4 cyl 74 kW
Smart stroke 81.8 mm vs Cultus 75.5 mm stroke
Smart torque 68 ft/lb @ 3000 rpm vs Cultus torque 83 ft/lb @ 5000 rpm

COMPARE TO GEO METRO 1000 G10
Smart stroke 81.8 mm vs Geo Metro 77.0 mm stroke
Smart torque 68 ft/lb @ 3000 rpm vs Geo Metro torque 57 ft/lb @ 3200 rpm
>>> The Mitsubishi 1000 is clearly a superior engine!

THE SOLUTION
http://www.ssgti.net/tech/swap.htm


http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1252616098

Comments on tires
Do not convert to dualies. Your coefficient of friction will go down and you will jack-knife and die.

So far i have switched to silver stone rally tires which grip the road and stopped the pushing around while towing. Still not able pull steep hills at speed but I can slow down a bit and make it. I'm getting better than 25mpg. i also bought a tracker with a 1.6 8v and it gets the same gas mileage as the Geo towing so i know know I'm just short on power. I also put in some springs rubber snubs to stiffen up the springs to make it handle better hauling. The tires are a bit taller which is giving me great free way mileage empty and it makes my 3rd ad 4th gear more ideal for towing. Looking at the weight difference between the tracker which tows very well and its hp rating i can see that I could use just a few more hp maybe as much as 10 hp. its right on the edge. but as far as handling towing it works like a champ and the brakes have plenty to handle the load. I'm only pulling at 55/60 mph. my ford f-150 with a 300 six is 13 mpg or towing. If i wasn't such a metro die hard the tracker is a great tow rig.

I'm laughing at these posts most of you made about how it wont work etc etc and it works so well. keep up the good positive work guys, I love how most people confuse the thought of facts with there opinions and what they think will happen. I also just made a speed run in my metro from Missulau montana to spokane washington with 3 people luggage and it was so have in the rear i had to flare the rear fender bead a bit so it would rub on the bumps in the ****ty road. any how we drove as fast as we could which was 75 barely and up the pass through the mountains in third gear wide open and I got 46/48 mpg. this new motor and raised compression and the signin grooves etc are really starting to come into play and i am able to get way out there with the timing. still playing with it. I didnt even get to use my clutch engine kill switch but the hand throttle came in handy.

Be sure to let us know how long the transmission lasts...