My 2nd Honda Insight
 

I was already working on a 2000 Insight in rough shape when another one popped up on Craigslist in April of 2019. The seller was asking $700. The Insight sat unused for a few years, part of that time in a barn on a dirt floor, resulting in extra rust of the steel parts. Before being parked, it had gotten a new IMA battery and catalytic converter from the dealer, along with new O2 sensors. When I looked at the Insight, it was pretty sad looking. Someone had keyed it, the driver's door had a scrape/wrinkle, the wheel skirts were barely hanging on, headlight lenses were hazy, and it had been smoked in. I offered $300 and my offer was eventually accepted. It probably helped that the owner was moving in a few days.

The keys were missing, so I had to disconnect the locked steering column and tow it home with a tow bar. I made a custom wiring harness to use the Insight's taillights instead of taping magnetic towing lights to the aluminum car!

I got the cheap $5 keys from the dealer, which required removing the immobilizer from the ECM to get the engine started. And I was pleased to discover that it ran very well. It does, of course, have the Insight's infamous 2nd gear crunch.

The brake lines looked pretty bad, so I replaced pretty much all of them. And I spliced the fuel lines in a couple of spots where they were leaking.

I talked to Ron Hansen of Hybrid Battery Repair at the Green Grand Prix and he told me not to even try the IMA battery without charging it first. I built a simple grid charger using a couple of LED power supplies that were recommended on Insight Central. 350mA for a little over 24 hours (battery fan running the whole time) brought the voltage up to 172 from a starting point of 94 volts. It's a 144v pack. So far the battery seems to be working great.

So with the IMA light now off, there was just one DTC caused by the missing immobilizer making the check engine light glow. Not good enough to pass New York State inspection, so an immobilizer bypass bought on eBay was added to the ECM.

172v may not be fully charged on these batteries. It varies by outside temperature but I've seen as high as maybe 184v, with my old battery typically going a little over 180, then dropping down to ~178-179 as it finished balancing.

Should I try charging it again? It was around 150-160 for a long time, then eventually got up to 172 and stayed there for a few hours. It was about 90°F outside. Probably not the best day to charge it!

Just want to make sure you had the fans running while charging it? It's very easy to cook one of these batteries by charging without the fans on.

Higher ambient or battery temperature will affect the peak voltage, so if it was very hot you might see lower voltage. Typically when a battery starts getting full (the first cells get full) it will be at the highest you'll see. As it continues to sit on the charger, the cells which have been topped off will start to warm up and their voltage will drop as their temperature rises. Usually within 2-4 hours of the battery voltage stopping rising is when it's completely balanced, and it will typically have dropped a volt or two in that time.

Does that make any sense?

I did have the one fan behind the pack running. Is there another? Since it was so hot out, I actually ran the fan for at least 30 minutes before starting to charge. Hatch and doors open, rear glass covered.

I wasn't watching the voltage the whole time, but 172 was the highest I saw, and it stayed there for a few hours before I disconnected the power. About 29 hours total charge time.

Sounds like it's fine then. Lower voltage can mean higher temperature, but it can also mean a healthier battery, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. 29 hours is more than long enough to charge a healthy battery from flat to full and then some.

It passed inspection!
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1563422092

I'm have trouble getting 70 MPG with it. My Civic Wagon can get 80 MPG on a tank. Can the wrong tires and missing wheel skirts make that much of a difference? Lifetime is 56 MPG.
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1563422102

The wrong tires make a huge difference. It's like dragging a boat anchor behind you. To the tune of 7-8 mpg lost.

Also, make sure you have the AC system set to "econ-AC off". Practically anything else you touch will run the compressor. I did my work commute yesterday and got 65 mpg round trip with AC on :-/, with no AC I can usually get 82-85mpg in that kind of heat. This car LOVES heat.

To make sure you're in the right AC (non) mode, first hit the off button, then hit the econ button twice. Adjust the fan as desired.

Sam

The compressor is seized and bypassed. I wish I had working A/C! I will definitely steal the RE92s from my other Insight! And put the skirts on!

Driving the Insight for mileage is quite different from driving a normal car. I was getting upper 50s in my Civic rated for 30 MPG (autotragic, so no 80 MPG like yours ;)), but my first Insight tank was only 66 MPG.

P&G doesn't work, DWL at 30-40 MPG in 5th works best, lean burn all the time. Lean burn kicks out when you go below 30 MPH in 5th and 25 MPH in 4th.

Air the tires up, skirts help some, underbody panels, tire pressure, check brake drag, spark plugs, all the normal things. Wrong tires will cost 5-20 MPG depending on brand and size. Mirror delete = +3% FE. Full lower grille block has coolant at 202-207 *F at 90 degrees outside and 197-202 *F during the winter.

The Insight with a working IMA has a slight constant background charge that will rob MPG. It only stops when your battery is at 18 bars or higher, at leas that's what it was on my '06. That charge never showed up on my Insight, but whenever an acceleration brought my battery down to 3/4 bars lit up on the display, it would background charge slightly (no visible charging) and make me lose ~10 MPG until the battery was full, thus negating most of the fuel savings from electric acceleration.

IMO, for ultimate MPG in the hands of a hypermiler, you need the battery deleted (weight savings outweigh battery benefit) or an IMAC&C + OBDIIC&C to manually control the battery. Without IMAC&C + OBDIIC&C, all the battery does is make the car faster, provide autostop and silent start, and capture energy for people who actually use their brakes, but at the expense of background charging and an extra 100lbs in the back of the car.

Working AC will cost you big in FE, as it does in any small econobox.

^ Some people live in environments where they do actually have to use brakes as part of their normal driving. For them, deleting the IMA does not have benefits that outweigh the cons.

Otherwise though, I agree. Driving with load was always far more successful for me than pulse and glide.

I was getting around 80 MPG in a borrowed 2001 Insight a few years ago. That was on 165/65-14 snow tires in the winter! No mods other than tire pressure and a temporary clutch switch. I really need to add a clutch switch to mine, the nearly constant assist seems so unnecessary and inefficient. And I need a kill switch.

My wrong tires are 175/65-14. Special-ordered for the previous owner and still the wrong size! I have them at 50 PSI. The large cracks in them keep me from going higher!

I don't brake enough to get a useful amount of regen.

I'm getting tempted to sell the IMA battery. It seems to be working flawlessly, which might be the ideal time to remove it! Plus it would more than pay for the car. :D

If you don't brake enough to get regen, and you aren't stopping the assist through a clutch mod or disabling/removing the battery, your car will almost always be in forced regen mode, which can cost you anywhere from 10-25 MPG in my experience. Forced charging isn't as subtle in the Insight as it is in the Prius.

Have you been able to detect lean burn yet? The IMA will almost always be assisting when not in lean burn, and doesn't assist when in lean burn.

If you switch off the battery and unplug the two connectors on the BCM, you can drive it without the battery functions and see if removing the forced regen improves your mileage to test without removing the battery. You'll have to key off to EOC since autostop will be gone, and acceleration will be slow until you remove the battery, which helps some.

I'm also trying to sell my hybrid battery as well, but haven't had any great luck yet. Probably because I've listed it a bit too high for now.

I need to pay more attention to when it's in lean burn. I'd like a light for that!

81.7 MPG with the IMA off.

If you have a Scangauge or the Torque app, watching the O2 sensor voltages will indicate lean burn. One of the sensors reads 0v when in lean burn, and >0v when not in lean burn.

You can also tell by engine load vs mpg, which is what I do. If you drive the car enough, you can tell just by the instrumentation.

Note that in order to get lean burn with the battery disabled your hybrid battery must be at least 20% charged if a 2000, and at least 50% charged if a 2006. Otherwise the car doesn't get lean burn. I learned the hard way once and got "poor" (if it can even be called poor) mpg on a highway trip. I wondered for the whole day why I wasn't getting lean burn. It was because I had reset the 12V, so the car thought the battery was empty on my IMA disable, so I didn't get lean burn until I let the car recalibrate and display the battery's correct charge level.

Sounds like that might be your issue then. Even a healthy battery has some slight background charge, and with limited brake use, forced charge is the only way the battery can charge.

IMA battery = faster acceleration = more power, and with limited braking for regen, = forced recharge = power robbing = lower fuel economy.

Looks like the previous owner had another one stashed there ... behind all the others in the first pic

No, that's my other Insight! I have too many cars! :D

97.0
 

Clutch switch helps a lot! :D
Also on old RE92s now. I think I filled them to 55 PSI.
No other mods yet.
Missing all front under panels, mystery oil from 3+ years ago, mystery spark plugs, EGR probably plugged.
I had to giddyup for a bit when a State Trooper was behind me! :turtle:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1564533477

There ya go! Great mileage and still tons of low hanging fruit to go. With a few mods I see myself having to play second to you in the Insight fuel logs here on Ecomodder very shortly!

69.3 MPG on a recent 334.2 mile trip. Some hypermiling, but mostly 55-70 MPH on the highway with the windows slightly open. No aero mods yet. Still missing all front under panels. I have Coroplast, I need to use it!

I'm hoping the EcoModder decal improves fuel economy!
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1564799207

Mine definitely does! :D

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1552421811

I changed the oil to Mobil 1 AFE 0w-16. And took out the wrong indexing code spark plugs and put in used plugs with the correct codes. I also tried more valve lash to get more low-RPM torque. I'm not sure if it made a difference, but it's noisier! Next up is cleaning the EGR.

I found out the IMA battery was replaced 5.5 years and 32k miles ago at a Honda dealer. Trying to figure out how much it's worth so I can sell it.

It's worth whatever someone locally will pay ;) I believe I got $700 for mine, but I'm somewhat of a Craigslist superstar.

Still haven't sold mine yet, we'll see what happens.

You might have better luck if you brought your battery to InsightFest and tried selling it there.

I'd probably go to InsightFest if it wasn't the same weekend as the vintage racing in Watkins Glen! I have a couple of potential battery buyers local to me.

I sold the IMA battery for $700. I got paid to install it too. And the whole car was only $300. I like cars that are cheaper than free! :D

Still getting "only" 70-80 MPG. Maybe I shouldn't complain!

EGR plate and passage cleaning didn't seem to accomplish much, but it needed to be done.

I have a P1457 EVAP leak. According to InsightCentral, it's probably the canister vent shut valve.

I'm getting a part-throttle bucking that I'd love to eliminate. I'm going to replace the TPS and see if that helps.

I need to replace a seized parking brake cable, a leaking rear wheel cylinder, and the warped front rotors. I have the parts, just need to get them in.

I also will replace the radiator before it starts leaking and install a block heater.

On a recent short road trip, one of the large plastic aero panels under the car caught the wind, dragged on the highway, and eventually folded under itself. I removed the mangled panel and will use the good one from my other Insight.

I'm probably going to remove the electric power steering and ABS brakes. Undecided about the A/C, it doesn't work now.

I just sold my IMA battery yesterday for about that.

Replacing the parking brake cable isn't too terribly difficult. Mine took a few minutes longer due to removing my underbody paneling. Have you checked the drums themselves to see if any parts are missing? My driver's side was missing the parking brake lever (in addition to the seized cable) so I replaced both the cable and the lever.

Do you find yourself hypermiling less in the Insight than in the Civic?

No parts missing on mine, just a mess from the leaking wheel cylinder. But on my friend's 2002 CVT Insight that I installed my battery in, both auto adjusters were missing. Not really a big deal. But one brake cable wasn't even connected!

I can't not hypermile anymore, but I would do better if my average speed was a bit lower. I need to leave the house early, not late, when I'm going somewhere! I'm using basically the same technique I used in the Civic. Cruising at light loads (LB), gliding down hills. Cruise & glide? I only do P&G if the road suits it.

I'm hoping a new TPS will help leanburn, as well as cure the bucking. I have trouble staying in LB over ~40 MPH. In my experience, Insights feel like they're always going uphill at about 50 MPG instantaneous. If I cruise at 35 MPH, I can average at least 100 MPG. I was going 45-50 MPH in the Civic on my best tanks.

At least I can see a definite advantage to the Insight on faster highway trips. It'll get 70 MPG in conditions where the boxy Civic Wagon would get only 50 MPG.

Hm. My Insight can lean burn up to 72 mph on level ground at ~80 mpg in the summer. Haven't driven it that fast in the winter but I doubt I'd be able to maintain speed while lean burning in the cold. I wonder what's causing lean burn not to work well for you over 40 mph? Is this the case with both of your Insights?

I couldn't tell you how my other Insight drives. :)
I could try its ECM, but I doubt that's the issue.

145/65-15 Yokohama Ice Guard IG20 snow tires on Honda Civic donut wheels. No change in tire weight, but the wheels add a total of 34 pounds! :eek:

Oh gosh you're in winter hell with heavy wheels. No wonder your car is struggling.

What I did when I lived in Ontario was I got a set of Civic VX rims with all seasons on them. But it would be better if you got snows on them. The lower rotational mass on the VX rims helps counteract the fact that the tires aren't low rolling resistance.

Getting the missing aero taken care of will help too but the wheels are definitely what's killing your ability to stay in lean burn.

If you have time to read 6 pages of posts I talked with the guys on Insight Central in 2016 about this same issue. I also made a new post today about using 4th gear in lean burn, but that still might not help because of those heavy wheels.

I read the first and last page. I'll have to experiment with 4th gear more. I just put the winter wheels on, I was complaining about the car with RE92s at 60-65 PSI. I'm assuming the bucking at part-throttle has something to do with the MPG issues.

If it's still bucking after EGR plate clean you might need a new EGR valve as well.

You want the Dorman one with part number 911-756

You want to avoid most of the EGR valves out there. Most of them have a smaller opening which can cause you to get P1491 check engine light because the passage is too narrow.

I haven't tried this one but the valve passage looks to be the same as on the Insight, maybe this one works fine:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-OEM...MAAOSw9a5XPrDx

It's cheaper than the Dorman I referred to above.

Just out of curiosity, why the donut wheels?

Thanks! Can the EGR valve be tested? I prefer not to buy parts unless I know I need them.

Normal 15" wheels would be too wide for these tires.

If it's bucking in lean burn and you cleaned the egr passages then the egr valve is the main culprit. I'm not sure if it could be something else. I don't know how to test it unless you have a friend with an Insight and a good EGR valve you can try who lives near you. It's not super hard to pull the valve out.