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-   -   new IMA battery, recognized by car, but not charging? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/new-ima-battery-recognized-car-but-not-charging-33067.html)

rpearson 11-12-2015 11:59 AM

new IMA battery, recognized by car, but not charging?
 
Quick overview: my 2003 HCH IMA battery died for a second time around 165K miles. We then drove it until it wouldn't go anymore -- the 12V was no longer being charged so it wouldn't make it far even if we got it started. We got 20K more miles out of it after the IMA light came on, not too bad.

I have a manual transmission. First battery died at 65K but was replaced under warranty. I bought a battery from Green Tec Auto (via ebay) and had our local mechanic install it. He hasn't worked on civic hybrids before.

New battery installed, and the IMA light went away, and the car runs again. The 12V light comes on everytime we cruise or come to a stop but it is getting charged or whatever while pressing on the gas.

Anyway I don't think the IMA system is working, as in, I'm not getting any battery assist when driving. The battery level shows no bars, the charge light only came on once briefly when I tried revving the engine once (then stopped). I can't feel the regenerative braking, and the car is very underpowered.

We've driven it around and tried revving it to 3500 rpm while parked. This morning my husband tried S Keith's advice from another thread to disconnect the 12V, wait 30 sec, reconnect and start the car and rev to 3500. He said it didn't charge.

I tried S Keith's advice from another thread:
Quote:

Originally Posted by S Keith (Post 491604)
If the IMA light is out, the car recognizes the battery. The BCM just has no idea of its state of charge as resting voltage does not correlate to state of charge, so it shows zero. If the IMA light is still on, you have other problems.

There are no issues with shoving a fully charged pack in a car. If you can, it's best to let the voltage stabilize over 30-60 minutes (maybe overnight), but two weeks is excessive.

Disconnect 12V for 30 seconds. Reconnect. Start and rev to 3500rpm and hold until you read full bars. You will need to drive it as you will show DTC not ready when you go to emissions, which will be the case no matter how you reset the codes.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? If I can't find a few other things to try I'll take it to the dealer or to a hybrid tech (I just found one in ABQ but that is 100 miles away from me, dealer is 40 mi away). I feel like I'm in the book Strega Nona where we just don't know the secret to stop the magic pasta pot.

One last thing: I don't know the state of charge of the battery. Definitely worth mentioning. I'm guessing it's mostly charged. The battery I bought was through a third party. They bought the new battery for their 03 HCH, but something else was majorly wrong with the car so they junked the car and resold the battery. I'm trusting they were telling the truth. It is definitely better than my old battery, though. They didn't know the state of charge, but I'm thinking it shipped fully charged.

rpearson 11-12-2015 01:05 PM

OK I have a possible answer to my problem. I called a shop that works on Hondas and they told me I have to take it to the dealer to have the system reprogrammed. So we're taking it in Monday to do that and have the airbag recall dealt with as well. I'll post an update afterwards if that does the trick or if it's something more than that.

S Keith 11-12-2015 05:36 PM

If you haven't had your 12V battery LOAD tested to confirm it is good, you need to do that too. Measuring its voltage is not sufficient. Most auto parts stores will test them for free.

Do the IMA, 12V and Check Engine lights (all three) come on when the ignition switch is turned to the ON position before starting?

Mr. Pancake 11-13-2015 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpearson (Post 499188)
OK I have a possible answer to my problem. I called a shop that works on Hondas and they told me I have to take it to the dealer to have the system reprogrammed. So we're taking it in Monday to do that and have the airbag recall dealt with as well. I'll post an update afterwards if that does the trick or if it's something more than that.

Too late now, but you should have had the trouble codes read prior to purchasing another battery. There are specific codes for the hybrid components.

I doubt having the dealership update your software will have any effect on the battery problem. Sounds like you have charging system component failure which I'm sure the dealership will charge quite a bit to repair (hopefully I'm wrong).

A little more unsolicited advice: Honda should have sent you mail regarding the airbag recall. The air bags in your car are the Takata brand ones, the ones in the news that can potentially injure or kill if they deploy during an accident. If you receive a recall notice it is best to take care of it as soon as possible, especially for something serious. Recall work is performed free of charge by the dealership.

rpearson 11-13-2015 12:03 PM

The car was diagnosed as needing a new IMA battery by the dealer in January 2014. I suppose something could have gone wrong with another component since then.

When I get the 12V checked at Autozone I'll go ahead and get them to read the error codes for me as well. Fingers crossed the other IMA parts are ok! That would suck.

So Honda did send me plenty of mail about the recall, but the car has been sitting dead in our driveway, hence why I've not dealt with it yet. The dealer is 40 miles away, so I didn't really want to tow it in and then back home again for that. Also we were out of the country for 6 months...which is part of why I've taken so long to fix the car! The weird thing is I remember a long time ago they had an airbag recall and fixed them (I thought for the exact same issue). Did they replace them with other defective airbags? Anyone know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Pancake (Post 499293)
Too late now, but you should have had the trouble codes read prior to purchasing another battery. There are specific codes for the hybrid components.

I doubt having the dealership update your software will have any effect on the battery problem. Sounds like you have charging system component failure which I'm sure the dealership will charge quite a bit to repair (hopefully I'm wrong).

A little more unsolicited advice: Honda should have sent you mail regarding the airbag recall. The air bags in your car are the Takata brand ones, the ones in the news that can potentially injure or kill if they deploy during an accident. If you receive a recall notice it is best to take care of it as soon as possible, especially for something serious. Recall work is performed free of charge by the dealership.


rpearson 11-13-2015 12:05 PM

Good advice, thanks. I'll head over to Autozone in a bit and find out. and check the lights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S Keith (Post 499223)
If you haven't had your 12V battery LOAD tested to confirm it is good, you need to do that too. Measuring its voltage is not sufficient. Most auto parts stores will test them for free.

Do the IMA, 12V and Check Engine lights (all three) come on when the ignition switch is turned to the ON position before starting?


S Keith 11-13-2015 01:09 PM

If you have an active IMA malfunction, it will return almost instantly, so you should still be able to pull them. Please confirm that the IMA light, Check Engine light and Red battery light all come on with you turn the key to the ON position (not started).

If you have bulbs that have burned out, you'll want to know.

rpearson 11-13-2015 02:46 PM

OK, 12V is only at 25% charge but they said it is OK.

When I turn the key to the ON position without starting it up, the 12V battery & check engine light show up but the IMA light does not.

Engine Code P1639. I just looked at the service record from Jan '14 and the code back then was P1449 (followed by the note NEEDS IMA BATTERY). No P1639 back then.

when I google P1639 Honda I get "MOTB signal circuit malfunction"

rpearson 11-13-2015 02:59 PM

Hmm just saw the note about Load testing. I'm not sure if it was load tested or what. I kind of spaced out on that part when I got there (I haven't had enough caffeine today or something). There was a test she said she couldn't do because of the low battery level, mumbled something about the alternator, and we replied, there is no alternator. and then we moved onto the engine codes. I can take it back again, but I'm thinking I can have the dealer check on it on Monday as well.

S Keith 11-13-2015 07:16 PM

a 12V at 25% is NOT OK. If they said it's at 25% based on more than just a voltage reading, they load tested it.

Your IMA light is burned out from running with it lit for so long. The new IMA battery has NOT corrected your issue unless the faults are caused by your 12V.

Your 12V is your top priority. A weak 12V battery can cause multiple IMA codes that make it seem like the sky is falling. From what I have heard, the 151R that the dealers offer is usually competitively priced. I prefer to install a larger 51R, but whatever works best for you. If it's reasonably priced, and your battery is more than a couple years old, replace it. If it sat for awhile and went flat, that can kill it.

Please indicate the red battery light status (on/off) for each:

1) idle for 10 seconds
2) hold 2000 rpm for 10 seconds
3) hold 4000 rpm for 10 seconds

Steve

rpearson 11-13-2015 08:58 PM

idle for 10 seconds: on
hold 2000 rpm 10 sec & 4000 rpm: off

I drove it for an hour (~40 mi) to the dealer this afternoon and dropped it off for my appt next Monday (it worked out better for my schedule to just drop it off today). The car performed fine, not too bad even going up the long grade into Santa Fe. Now that I tihnk about it, I wonder how I managed to keep it at 65 without IMA assist. I used to do that commute every single day and the car didn't always manage that.

I'll ask the dealer to check out the 12V battery & replace it if needed. The battery is old, really old. I don't remember the last time it was replaced. And it sat for a year. And before that it was getting drained all the time while the IMA battery was on its final legs. so yeah. probably not the healthiest battery ever.

my husband wants to mention that the voltage across the 12V battery dropped when the motor was running. from 12 point something to 11.5.

rpearson 11-17-2015 12:28 PM

OK, the dealer says 12 volt battery is good. They are saying they need to open everything up to debug the error code P1639, so I'm going to have a shop that is certified to work on Honda hybrids debug it instead (presumably it will save me some $$). Especially since the dealer didn't actually have a good idea as to what the problem was. I had the feeling they've never really seen this code before.

S Keith 11-17-2015 12:43 PM

Your description that the battery is old, sat for over a year, etc., puts the dealer's statement in question. Unless somebody put an actual load tester on the battery, no one can say it's good. If you let a battery sit in a car for a year, it will be completely flat. If that battery has any age or wear on it previously, it's capacity and CCA will be dramatically reduced due to sulfation from storage at low SoC. I suspect the mechanic used the HDS to read the voltage, saw it was okay and never bothered to cross the shop, grab a load tester and actually load the battery. A voltage check is only part of the picture.

The charge light behavior indicates your 12V charging system is operating above idle.

I assume the drop to 11.5V was at idle. Did you check voltage at 2000rpm when the red light was out?

I am not at all convinced that your 12V is good.

Did you look for a missing fuse?

P1639 Code in 2003 HCH? - GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars

rpearson 11-17-2015 01:00 PM

I'm going to ask them to look for a missing fuse & load test if they didn't. When I went to that thread you linked to, I wondered how I missed reading about the outcome, then realized you asked them. thanks!

S Keith 11-17-2015 02:42 PM

:)

Just trying to help.

Steve

rpearson 11-17-2015 02:52 PM

So, they checked the fuses before I guess, and they are fine. And they did do a load test when they checked the battery. I'll take it to the other shop and let them have at it.

rpearson 11-27-2015 08:22 PM

I am rpearson's husband. Don't want to confuse.

I went to auto zone and told them I wanted to replace the battery although I didn't actually believe it was bad. They said take it out of the car and we'll stick it on our charger/tester and you'll know for sure. An hour later they called and said the 12 volt was fine.

In all this I also found a bad IMA fuse in the fuse bank under the hood. Replaced it. I haven't measured any voltages since replacing the burnt fuse.

I'm not really sure what is going on. The 12 volt seems to be charging as the car never fails to start. We've driven it maybe 200 miles without incident.

The only thing I am certain of is that we get the error code P1639 and that the IMA charge/assist lights don't come on.

I've reset the error codes several times and P1639 returns within 10 seconds or so. My wife and son think the car is actually receiving assist from the IMA system. I'm not sure about that. The charge/assist light comes on when the ignition is first energized but then goes off. I guess there is a moment where it says it is charging at 3 bars for a few seconds when the car is first started and then it goes off and stays off. Tomorrow I plan to put the old IMA battery back in and read the error codes with it. Then put the new IMA battery back in.

How do you replace the red IMA light? It seems that would be an additional diagnostic that would be good to have. What does the MOTD do?

S Keith 11-27-2015 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpearson (Post 500701)
I am rpearson's husband. Don't want to confuse.

I went to auto zone and told them I wanted to replace the battery although I didn't actually believe it was bad. They said take it out of the car and we'll stick it on our charger/tester and you'll know for sure. An hour later they called and said the 12 volt was fine.

In all this I also found a bad IMA fuse in the fuse bank under the hood. Replaced it. I haven't measured any voltages since replacing the burnt fuse.

I'm not really sure what is going on. The 12 volt seems to be charging as the car never fails to start. We've driven it maybe 200 miles without incident.

The only thing I am certain of is that we get the error code P1639 and that the IMA charge/assist lights don't come on.

I've reset the error codes several times and P1639 returns within 10 seconds or so. My wife and son think the car is actually receiving assist from the IMA system. I'm not sure about that. The charge/assist light comes on when the ignition is first energized but then goes off. I guess there is a moment where it says it is charging at 3 bars for a few seconds when the car is first started and then it goes off and stays off. Tomorrow I plan to put the old IMA battery back in and read the error codes with it. Then put the new IMA battery back in.

How do you replace the red IMA light? It seems that would be an additional diagnostic that would be good to have. What does the MOTD do?

If the 12V light is on, 12V charging inop. If it's off, the 12V is charging. Your wife confirmed is it on at idle but off at 2000rpm. This means the DC-Dc converter is working w/o the IMA battery. It's charging the 12V based on its input. Idle output of the IMA motor is too low, between about 1500 and 3500, it's good, 3500+ is too high.

Your wife linked to a thread on Greenhybrid where someone had the same code. It was a missing fuse.

The next diagnostic in that thread was to swap out the MCM (one of the boxes in the IMA cavity with the battery) with a used unit.

Unfortunately, I don't have a service manual for HCH1. The HCH1 is closer to the Insight than the HCH2. The Insight mentioned a P1638 code relating to the MCM, but the HCH2 has nothing close.

The diagnostic for the Insight is to reset the MCM via the #18 Back Up Fuse (under dash) or the Honda Diagnostic System. It does not indicate that a 12V reset would do it, but I'd be surprised if it didn't. If that doesn't correct it, replace MCM with a known working unit.

Probably a good idea to confirm you get the same codes with the old pack. If you don't, you can try to swap the junction boards between the packs. It's pretty easy. If you go that route, be careful, there's 90V or so exposed when the junction board's off. Do NOT touch more than one of the Aluminum spacers at once.

Don't know how to replace the IMA light. Likely have to access the back of the cluster.

You might consider a service manual of your own:

2003 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid Shop Service Repair Manual CD Engine Drivetrain | eBay

My HCH2 manual is from that source ("Bishko", not that seller), and I've been very happy with it.

Good luck,

Steve

rpearson 11-28-2015 12:46 PM

The MCM was the first thing they replaced. Then they swapped their new MCM for an ECM and finally they said it was neither the the MCM or ECM but a missing fuse. I did find a bad fuse in the engine compartment but it did not solve the problem. I also removed and checked a fuse under the dash that I thought was for the IMA but I should probably check that I pulled the correct one.

I've ordered the shop manual and the electronic trouble shooting guide. I'm not optimistic that they'll help a shade tree mechanic but it's worth a shot. I gave up shade tree mechanic-ing a quarter century ago but this IMA stuff is pricey. I don't trust the dealer to get it right without spending more than the car is worth so I'm giving it a whirl. Back in the good old days I always liked Haynes manuals. Do they go into debugging the IMA system?

S Keith 11-28-2015 01:07 PM

I'm with you, but in my mid-40s, I'm still at turning wrenches.

The Honda manuals are pretty good. There's a section dedicated to the IMA, and there's troubleshooting for each code.

rpearson 11-29-2015 06:26 PM

Well we made some progress today. Husband & stepson worked on the car, figured out that stepson had disconnected something last year and no one had reconnected it (to disconnect the battery from everything else). So the P1639 code disappeared.

They drove around with the old IMA battery and it charged! (?? is there life in it still???)

Then they put the new IMA battery back in. No go. Some other error code (I forget at the moment). Then they took a closer look at battery and saw this wiring:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/be8e4a98...99beo1_540.jpg

We're going to try to fix it ourselves (this would be the royal we, husband & stepson are the mechanics around here). The warranty is void as it is so breaking the seal isn't a big deal. The big deal of course is working on it safely.

I think they'll manage to fix it, but stay tuned... I was thinking maybe worst case we can use some of the "sticks" from this one and replace the bad ones in the old battery. But hopefully it won't come to that.

rpearson 11-29-2015 07:04 PM

oh it's even "better" when you get into the battery innards...will post some pics in a bit.

S Keith 11-29-2015 07:49 PM

Sorry to hear that. I suspect that someone mucked about with a Greentec case. I would not expect shoddy workmanship from Greentec.

Your old pack MIGHT have some life left in it. The IMA modules show some signs of improvement when subjected to extended self discharge. This effectively "bottom balances" them. Upon recharge, voltage depression is eliminated and capacity is increased. If you had the pack bypassed for many months, this is likely what has happened. You might see some useful life from it.

We obtained an HCH2 pack with 110K miles on it that coded. It sat on a shelf for 2.5 years. When I received it, it was at 59.6V (0.45V/cell). The pack performed great for 8 months before an AZ summer took its toll (the electric A/C compressor is very demanding of the IMA pack).

You might get some trouble free miles from it, but any life will be short-lived.

Once you're down to the stick-level, it's a whole new nightmare.

Steve

rpearson 11-29-2015 08:25 PM

first off-- very interesting about why the car drove with the old battery. It certainly was disconnected for a long time, over a year. We're probably going to try to recondition it now as I'm pretty sure this new-to-me one is all bad.

Original IMA pack (well the second one I got, but Honda replaced it under warranty)
https://36.media.tumblr.com/03389c59...99beo5_540.jpg

New-to-me pack:
https://36.media.tumblr.com/5a1f6cb1...99beo4_540.jpg

Original battery wiring
http://41.media.tumblr.com/7b33f8e76...99beo2_250.jpg

new-to-me wiring
https://41.media.tumblr.com/b8b86480...99beo1_540.jpg

rpearson 11-29-2015 08:43 PM

response from the seller -- he says GreenTec told him to snip a wire to "bypass a thermal
protection circuit that is a known problem." The seller also said that the car did run normally for a few months with this battery.

How does the inside look to you? It sure seems like it's missing a lot of stuff. But maybe we're wrong...

S Keith 11-29-2015 08:44 PM

I would expect that the installer would have seen that and said, WTF? If not, then it was probably done at installation. No offense if you're the installer.

The sticks in your first pack are clearly honda original with the PTC strips.

The sticks in the greentec are typical of what are used in aftermarket pack builds - chinese cells. When properly sorted by a competent builder, they can be very high quality.

There's a red wire that traces along the orange panel you removed. Does it have a 1" section cut from it? If so, good. That means the PTC circuit has been bypassed. If not, your new pack needs to be modified, or it should have a resistor where the Honda pack is cut.

I violently recommend you pursue grid charging/discharging vs. stick replacement/refurbishment. It's the difference between a mildly unpleasant afternoon vs. setting your head on fire and putting it out with a hammer.

DIY charger/discharger:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

You technically don't need the 12V PS since you can't run the fan w/o a PWM signal. You'll have to do it out of the car and if it works, probably every oil change thereafter.

Alternatively, Hybrid Automotive sells a turnkey solution that allows convenient charging in-car.

Steve

S Keith 11-29-2015 09:11 PM

Your pictures are very low resolution, and he may be correct.

The PTC circuit is the red wire and a blue wire with yellow stripe. Either or both could be cut.

It's usually not cut outside the pack, but near the junction board internally.

This actually might be an issue, and I'm sorry I didn't think of it.

Please confirm if your original pack is or is not cut. It will be a wire with a thick red insulation.

rpearson 11-29-2015 09:16 PM

The installer wasn't very knowledgeable, unfortunately. Or maybe didn't pay attention. I'm not sure. (we used to use him as a mechanic but he seems to not be as good as he used to). Anyway, next time I'll just pay my stepson to do the work. He's a much better mechanic.

Orange Panel (new one). No red wire whatsoever.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/d587ab16...99beo1_540.jpg

Old one with wire: https://41.media.tumblr.com/a2c370d1...99beo2_540.jpg

rpearson 11-29-2015 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S Keith (Post 500831)
Your pictures are very low resolution, and he may be correct.

The PTC circuit is the red wire and a blue wire with yellow stripe. Either or both could be cut.

It's usually not cut outside the pack, but near the junction board internally.

This actually might be an issue, and I'm sorry I didn't think of it.

Please confirm if your original pack is or is not cut.

We don't see anything cut on the original pack. Here is a link to a couple of the pics of the original pack with higher resolution:

https://40.media.tumblr.com/7b33f8e7...9beo2_1280.jpg

https://40.media.tumblr.com/835f4a1d...9beo3_1280.jpg

sorry that this one doesn't have better lighting. I don't see any cut wires here either.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/4fe6ee37...99beo1_540.jpg

rpearson 11-29-2015 09:52 PM

On the new pack, the wires that were cut are indeed the blue wire with yellow stripe, and the red wire.

rpearson 11-29-2015 10:05 PM

and the missing tabs? (on top of the sticks) Are those just omitted with this battery or should they be there? I'm trying to find photos online but the majority are of the original Honda packs and not of something like a GreenTec pack.

It's starting to sound like maybe the wires are appropriately snipped, perhaps just not in the usual location.

S Keith 11-29-2015 10:17 PM

The tabs on your Honda pack are the PTC strips. Honda eliminated them part way through HCH1 production. Most Honda packs, whether they have the strips or not, have the wire cut. It's a deliberate cut approximately 1" long per a service bulletin.

To my knowledge, no aftermarket packs have those installed. If your Honda is cut, you are good. If not, you need to get an ECU update OR put in a resistor.

I'm kicking myself for not remembering this. I don't have to deal with it on my HCH2 or on my G1 insight with an aftermarket pack, and I forget it's an issue.

Again, if your wire on the Honda is not cut at the orange board, the fix is likely an ECU update or a 20 Ohm resistor in line with the cut blue/yellow wire.

Steve

rpearson 11-30-2015 12:37 PM

The guy who installed it for us didn't really know what he was doing (and didn't claim to). He didn't cut any wires or do anything more than swap out the batteries. The person we purchased it from says he did cut wires as per instructions from green tech. Based on nothing more than the esthetics of his workmanship I think it is probable that he botched the job. I say that because the wires are intertwined in a way that makes it quite difficult to see what he has done. I hope that I've succeeded with the two photos below.

The point of the top photo is to establish some labeling. I label the pins 1 to 6 from right to left as shown in the photo. In following table I summarize the wire colors that go to the given pin numbers. The wires coming from pins 1 & 2 are a few inches long and are not connected to anything. The wires coming from pins 3, 5, and 6 go directly into the harnesses. The wire coming from pin 4 goes to complex junction which is shown in the second photo.

pin # wire color

1 red
2 blue w/ long yellow stripe
3 yellow w/ short silver stripes
4 blue w/ short silver stripes
5 white w/ short silver stripes
6 blue w/ short silver stripes



https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5773/...131d764b_c.jpg53ROLBPh08wzbODVprSMAcXgxg0Vv_Vi5UbUEqbU-5A by rarichard, on Flickr
This next picture focuses on a junction. Three wires coming from the harnesses are all connected to the wire that is connected to pin 4. The wires coming from the harnesses are (a)blue w/ long black stipe and short silver stripes (b)yellow w/ long black stripe and short silver stripes, and (c)blue w/ short silver stripes.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5625/...ca851f73_c.jpgBs2fV583KN_HjvO0JSztB8V6_prisaCo3pcL1cgPLBI by rarichard, on Flickr

Apparently the fundamental unit in these things are cells which are supposed to be about 1.25 volts or something. Those are arranged in 20 tubes each of which contains 6 cells. Pairs of these tubes are connected in series. On our old battery if you measure the voltage across a pair of tubes it is about 15.5 V. On the refurbished battery the same measurement gives about 12.5 V. I don't know why the voltages are so different. I would like to make sure that the refurbished battery is wired correctly so that we can either use it or sell it on e-bay. If we can refurbish the old battery that would be great too. The first thing I want to establish is whether the wiring on the refurbished battery is correct or not.

rpearson 11-30-2015 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S Keith (Post 500842)
The tabs on your Honda pack are the PTC strips. Honda eliminated them part way through HCH1 production. Most Honda packs, whether they have the strips or not, have the wire cut. It's a deliberate cut approximately 1" long per a service bulletin.

To my knowledge, no aftermarket packs have those installed. If your Honda is cut, you are good. If not, you need to get an ECU update OR put in a resistor.

I'm kicking myself for not remembering this. I don't have to deal with it on my HCH2 or on my G1 insight with an aftermarket pack, and I forget it's an issue.

Again, if your wire on the Honda is not cut at the orange board, the fix is likely an ECU update or a 20 Ohm resistor in line with the cut blue/yellow wire.

Steve

No need to kick yourself. Our previous problems were because we had a disconnected plug. I believe the new error code with the refurbished battery is P1600 but I'll need to check. With the plug connected the car ran with the old battery and no error codes. The old battery was charging, but way too fast. It went from 0 to 4 or 5 bars in a quarter mile of driving. I will confirm the error code on the refurbed battery once it I have put it back together properly and reinstalled it. Before I do that I want to convince myself it is wired properly.

S Keith 11-30-2015 01:09 PM

Your image links are broken. No pictures are displayed.

Let's take this one step at a time. Let's ignore everything but the cut wires for the time being and troubleshoot:

Critical to resolution: Is there a one inch cut in your Honda pack like this:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums...s-p1010247.jpg

If this wire is intact, it is the cause of your P1600, which is a generic IMA fault that often accompanies other IMA faults. The solution is to install a 20 Ohm resistor between the red wire and the blue/yellow wire.

The voltage disparities are not a concern given the following:

1) After installing your original IMA pack, it was operating normally and received a charge, and these measurements were made AFTER you observed charging.
2) Your "new" pack has not charged for any significant period since installed, and it may have been sitting around for some time before you received it.

While the cut wire may appear horribly shoddy, it is likely a non-issue. Please correct the pictures, and I will check my harness when I get home.

Steve

rpearson 11-30-2015 02:46 PM

Your pic is broken as well, but I can confirm that the wire in the original Honda pack is *not* cut. I'll fix those pics in a bit when I get a chance.

rpearson 11-30-2015 02:54 PM

Oh also, the original owner of this Greentec battery told me after he cut the wires, and it didn't resolve the problem, he respliced them. But we're pretty sure he respliced them incorrectly, as the blue/yellow stripe is now spliced to a red. He did this four months after the new battery was in (when it started having problems, he called Greentec).

PS I think I fixed the pics let me know if they are still broken. (I can see them).

S Keith 11-30-2015 03:02 PM

Here's a direct link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...1/P1010247.jpg

Try that.

The Honda pack will be cut inside the junction board, not outside.

If your Honda isn't cut, you need the ECU update or splice in a 20 Ohm resistor between the red and blue/yellow wires.

The previous owner's car must have had the ECU update. If the ECU doesn't expect a signal on that line, it trips a code. If it expects a signal on that line, and it doesn't get one, it trips a code.

Another thread about this:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...new-31958.html

Here's the link to the TSB about junction board replacement:

http://honda-tech.com/attachments/in...el-a12-048.pdf

It doesn't discuss the specifics, but indicates that it is not to be repaired.

S Keith 11-30-2015 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpearson (Post 500889)
Oh also, the original owner of this Greentec battery told me after he cut the wires, and it didn't resolve the problem, he respliced them. But we're pretty sure he respliced them incorrectly, as the blue/yellow stripe is now spliced to a red. He did this four months after the new battery was in (when it started having problems, he called Greentec).

PS I think I fixed the pics let me know if they are still broken. (I can see them).

I can see them. I'll check my HCH1 harness when I get home and let you know.

So, it looks like 2 things are needed to get that pack working... potentially fix the splice job and install a 20 Ohm resistor.

BTW, this harness is for monitoring the 3 thermistors and the PTC strips. Simplistically stated, the PTC strips are basically a resistor that runs along the length of each stick with with a probe on each cell. If even a single cell gets dangerously warm, the strip resistance goes very high. The 20 PTC strips are connected in series between the red and blue/yellow leads. A 20 Ohm signal tells the BCM that there is no catastrophic cell heating going on. With that signal steady, the BCM operates normally based on the 3 thermistors.

No aftermarket packs contain PTC strips. Honda discontinued them on the HCH1 sometime in 04. They haven't been on an HCH2, G2 Insight, CR-Z or Accord Hybrid. However, you may the ECU that expects them.

Steve

rpearson 11-30-2015 04:47 PM

If we have them do an ECU update, do I ask them to flash it? I want to make sure to use the correct term when talking to them.

Although I think we can install a resistor. That would give us more flexibility if we refurbish the old battery, as they will both use the same ECU software (both have "PTC" -- although one is just pretending with the resistor). am I correct?

and thank you, your advice has been amazing!


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