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supersupereight 11-28-2009 12:04 AM

New Member - Corvette owner/Aerodynamics Enthusiast
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hello

New to the forum and very interested in whats going on here. I know I seem out of place here, but believe me Vette owners want to improve their gas milage also.. We certainly enjoy aerodynamics and a low CD..

So Im asking you all to accept me to your kingdom and allow me to benefit from your experience.

My 2000 coupe benefits from a 6 sp manaul transmission that allows me to get 24-27 mpg on the highway. Not bad for a big V8 engine built over a decade ago.

I have decided to embark on a sustained effort to improve my MPG..

Mods that are already working are fixed aero non pop up headlights to inprove air flow and reduce weight. I am also actively replacing interior and exterior parts with carbon fiber parts versions to reduce weight. My goal is to shed as much weight as possible.



The next mods in the works are a carbon fiber rear wing and vortex generators to improve airflow over the rear and reduce the eddy affect .


A carbon fiber front splitter and canards placed in such a way to smooth airflow from the front are being incorporated.
The car has been lowered to improve the Cd

I guess Im lucky..The Corvette already has a very slippery shape.
The underside is flat and air moves underneath without any turbulace..

Any ideas or suggestion beyond selling her are appreciated!!

Happy motoring!!

Thanks
marty:thumbup:

Frank Lee 11-28-2009 12:09 AM

Welcome aboard!

I think we pretty much like Vettes here so that's no worry.

I'm fairly certain that your wing proposal is going to hurt more than help.

And vortex generators... there might be some proponents and support for that idea, but IMHO they won't help, especially with your car's rear profile.

Christ 11-28-2009 12:12 AM

The Corvette's rear profile already has a nice streamlined shape, I think... Adding the spoiler is likely going to disrupt that clean exit profile, like Frank says.

I wouldn't do it.

mcrews 11-28-2009 12:37 AM

welcome!
 
When I got married in dec of 1986, my SCCA SoloII racing buddie drove down from dallas to san antonio in his new vette ( 86 or 87 but the new -at that time - body). He had been racing a stock 79 mazda rx7 (very bad mpg 14-16 but very quick!!) So he tells me at the reception that he got 26mpg in his new vette....I couldn't believe it!
But I guess there are 2 overdrive gears in the 6 speed??

Anyway welcome.....

supersupereight 11-28-2009 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrews (Post 142115)
When I got married in dec of 1986, my SCCA SoloII racing buddie drove down from dallas to san antonio in his new vette ( 86 or 87 but the new -at that time - body). He had been racing a stock 79 mazda rx7 (very bad mpg 14-16 but very quick!!) So he tells me at the reception that he got 26mpg in his new vette....I couldn't believe it!
But I guess there are 2 overdrive gears in the 6 speed??

Anyway welcome.....

Thanks for the welcome..!

Top speed is achived in 5th gear at redline. 6th gear is strictly an overdrive gear for fuel economy. It works great! I also skip shift 1-3-5 or 1-3-4-6 often which helps.

Yea your buddy drove you down in a C4..Cd was probably.34
My C5 has a Cd of .29
When you say New Vette..Do you mean C6?? with the lowest Cd of all corvettes at .28

I hear GM might produce a diesel Vette..lifted from one of there remaining truck divisions.

Christ 11-28-2009 12:54 AM

I'm trying to score an IROC Camaro from a friend that's basically an unreported total loss, so I can swap in a 6.5TD and a 5/6speed at some point. She's not budging on it so far, but I'm gonna keep working on her.

supersupereight 11-28-2009 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 142105)
Welcome aboard!

I think we pretty much like Vettes here so that's no worry.

I'm fairly certain that your wing proposal is going to hurt more than help.

And vortex generators... there might be some proponents and support for that idea, but IMHO they won't help, especially with your car's rear profile.

Thanks Frank

The wing and vortex gen are in a direct response to me confirming the accumulation of dirt on the 4 rear light wells on the back bumper of the Vette. This tells me that airflow off the back is producing the eddy effect as it rolls past the rear deck and bumper..and not rolling off cleanly.
I took great care to choose a wing that was very light weight, adjustable angle and very flat to produce minimal drag.. The vortex Gen will be place properly to create and airfoil affect and have the high pressure airflow stay closer to the rear glass and increase the affectiveness of that wing

[IMG]http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...ht/VortexG.jpg[/IMG]

I plan on doing some real world testing to determine the overall affects. And plan on taking video at high speeds to confirm my findings

Thank you for your input

Marty:thumbup:

supersupereight 11-28-2009 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 142123)
I'm trying to score an IROC Camaro from a friend that's basically an unreported total loss, so I can swap in a 6.5TD and a 5/6speed at some point. She's not budging on it so far, but I'm gonna keep working on her.

Great Idea!
And who could say no to Christ anyway!!

Frank Lee 11-28-2009 01:06 AM

What you have there is an image of a vortex generator test of some sort. It does not mean the wing is helping the drag coefficient!

Naturally there is dirt on the flat rear surface. As in your image above, the blue area is all turbulence. As you can see the presence of vgs and/or wing do not affect the turbulent zone on the rear i.e. none of that rear surface is or will have attached flow.

Check out the mods and tips up top on the header bar.

mcrews 11-28-2009 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 142123)
I'm trying to score an IROC Camaro from a friend that's basically an unreported total loss, so I can swap in a 6.5TD and a 5/6speed at some point. She's not budging on it so far, but I'm gonna keep working on her.

Wow!
what kinda torgue would that thing have!!!
you could probably regear it and get amazing mileage?

cfg83 11-28-2009 01:17 AM

supersupereight -

Welcome to EM! In Frank and Christ you can trust.

CarloSW2

mcrews 11-28-2009 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supersupereight (Post 142122)
Thanks for the welcome..!

Top speed is achived in 5th gear at redline. 6th gear is strictly an overdrive gear for fuel economy. It works great! I also skip shift 1-3-5 or 1-3-4-6 often which helps.

Yea your buddy drove you down in a C4..Cd was probably.34
My C5 has a Cd of .29
When you say New Vette..Do you mean C6?? with the lowest Cd of all corvettes at .28
.

No, a new in 86. so it was the C4. but what a change from the 79 RX7s we were racing!!!! the phrase 'ricer' suddenly had real meaning!

of course I was in a 66 mustang 200in auto trans, 2.89 rear end :turtle: before the rx7!!!!

You certainly are bring a 'full deck' to the table, you've really thought the modds out.
If you start to dig deep here you'll see that there is certainly some top talent on the aero front!:thumbup:

cfg83 11-28-2009 01:46 AM

supersupereight -

I think you already have a rear slope that closely matches the image you provided :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cf...rear-slope.jpg

Maybe one of them salt-flat flat-spoilers would do something :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cf...ces-fusion.jpg

I *do* like the adjustable spoiler part for finding your Vette's sweet spot.

CarloSW2

Frank Lee 11-28-2009 01:55 AM

A tuft test would reveal if there is a need for mods in that region.

Christ 11-28-2009 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 142151)
A tuft test would reveal if there is a need for mods in that region.

And stifle any possibility for debate. :thumbup:

Christ 11-28-2009 02:02 AM

I'm going to go all out and suggest boat tailing the wheel fairings in the rear bumper and rocker panels. They're already tailed up on both parts, but (especially in the rear) more could be done.

I'm also going to note that because of the rear design of the car, if anything were to help rear flow off the tail, it would likely be a spoiler-like device mounted at the base of the windshield, probably no more than 1" from the deck lid to promote linearity through the course of the roof to decklid transition. A rigid decklid extension would clean up the detachment point considerably, if you're seeing dirt devils in the tail lights.

Under the rear bumper, the curve transitions to a fairly sharp rounded edge... usually, a square edge would be of benefit, although increasing wake area, it will separate flow more cleanly, inducing less of a vacuum... A rear valance splitter-type spoiler might be effective at that aft curve.

Those are about the only rear-end suggestions I have, other than whale-tail tapering.

EDIT: After further consideration, I can almost guarantee your tail lights are getting dirt devils at their tops, and it's because of the low-speed flow profile at the bottom of the rear bumper. If you straighten out that aft edge, your license plate and lights should stay almost 100% cleaner.

Frank Lee 11-28-2009 02:10 AM

wat? :confused:

There's gonna be dirt devils on the taillights no matter what mods happen back there except for a full boattail that covers em up.

pgfpro 11-28-2009 02:12 AM

Welcome to the site!!!

I always love the idea of making a Corvette a eco-car.:thumbup:

MadisonMPG 11-28-2009 02:17 AM

Can you please not make it an Eco car? lol They have LS1's for a reason. :P

Do you still have the runflats on it? When you get new tires, replace the runflats with regular tires. Everything will improve.

Christ 11-28-2009 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 142157)
wat? :confused:

There's gonna be dirt devils on the taillights no matter what mods happen back there except for a full boattail that covers em up.

There will be, of course, but the impression I got was that he has to regularly clean his tail lights because of them... improving rear airflow will help that situation.

The idea (for those that don't know) is that solid masses traveling in an air stream will move to the outside edge of the stream.. (centripetal force), and tend to attach to solid-non moving objects, like your car, where they can adhere. Moving the largest section of the turbulent wake further from your vehicle means that less of the particles get trapped close enough to your vehicle to adhere, so you get less dirt devils in the lenses.

It's kinda like how those stupid SUV window spoilers work, only in reverse, I guess.

supersupereight 11-28-2009 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadisonMPG (Post 142159)
Can you please not make it an Eco car? lol They have LS1's for a reason. :P

Do you still have the runflats on it? When you get new tires, replace the runflats with regular tires. Everything will improve.

This mod is done already..
I replaced the runflats with Goodyear GS-D3..245/45/17 fronts 275/40/18 rear
Shaved some weight and they feel so much better..:thumbup:

supersupereight 11-28-2009 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 142151)
A tuft test would reveal if there is a need for mods in that region.

Plan on doing extensive tuft testing

Weather Spotter 11-28-2009 09:39 PM

I would suggest getting a ScanGauge and using it to adjust your driving style. that has helped me make a 3-6 MPG improvement without any other mods. It will also allow more testing of different mods.

TomO 11-30-2009 12:22 PM

Welcome aboard...I'm a little late as I just got back from TX, lol.

This wouldn't happen to be you on HIDplanet would it?: C5 headlights

supersupereight 11-30-2009 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weather Spotter (Post 142352)
I would suggest getting a ScanGauge and using it to adjust your driving style. that has helped me make a 3-6 MPG improvement without any other mods. It will also allow more testing of different mods.

Thanks!!:D

supersupereight 11-30-2009 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomO (Post 142734)
Welcome aboard...I'm a little late as I just got back from TX, lol.

This wouldn't happen to be you on HIDplanet would it?: C5 headlights

Welcome Back from Tx

And thank you for the warm welcome to the forum..
That isnt me on the HIDplanet forum..

Marty
BKVETTE:thumbup:

Alex99 12-02-2009 01:09 PM

Marty,
I also own a 2000 C5 and am very active in ecomodding activities on my car.
I did some very successful underbody mods and other things ranging from Engine software changes like lean-cruise to solar cells to engine and trans heaters for cold starts.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ette-9108.html
I use the Vette as my daily driver with current hwy mpgs between 28-31 (A4 with H/C LS1). My city average is 20 mpg.
Regarding the Scangauge, I think we can get away without one because we can display instantaneous MPG in our instrument cluster, which is very helpful i driving economically.
My next steps are an underdrive pulley for the cankshaft and maybe an electric waterpump. I've also looked into converting to an electric powersteering pump. There are many options out there that might make sense but they all involve some work and $$.
Alex

supersupereight 12-02-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex99 (Post 143324)
Marty,
I also own a 2000 C5 and am very active in ecomodding activities on my car.
I did some very successful underbody mods and other things ranging from Engine software changes like lean-cruise to solar cells to engine and trans heaters for cold starts.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ette-9108.html
I use the Vette as my daily driver with current hwy mpgs between 28-31 (A4 with H/C LS1). My city average is 20 mpg.
Regarding the Scangauge, I think we can get away without one because we can display instantaneous MPG in our instrument cluster, which is very helpful i driving economically.
My next steps are an underdrive pulley for the cankshaft and maybe an electric waterpump. I've also looked into converting to an electric powersteering pump. There are many options out there that might make sense but they all involve some work and $$.
Alex

Hi Alex

Many thanks for your response and making me feel right at home. Good ideas come from many places and yours certainly seem like they would net results.

Seeing your Aero c5 post and pics now inspires me to give it a try. Although off the rear I was thinking flat tray and vertical fins.. ie venturi tunnel

I have the cardboard ready And Im going to start cutting and fashioning my idea until I have something that seems like it will work. I hope I can bounce these ideas off you and we can work together to achieve real results.

Id like to know more about the other mods youve done IE solar/Electric punps etc..
Keep me posted

And happy motoring!!:thumbup:

Marty
BKVETTE

Alex99 12-08-2009 10:47 AM

Hi Marty,
Unfortunately the high cost of an electric waterpump for the LS1 is holding me back to purchase one.
I use 2 x5 Watt flexible solar panels in the back to charge the 12V battery while the car is parked.
Since I have other intrumentation onboard (Wideband O2 sensor, datalogger etc.) I tend to use more electricity than stock. In addition to that I drive mostly short distances so the battery gets weak after a while. I just installed them temporarily to see if they have an impact or not.

Another thing that I have done is to enable torque converter lockup in 3rd gear. Since you have a manual, this doesn't apply to your car.
So far I would say the underbody covers have improved mileage the most. Another big help is the engine block and transmission heater.

I'm also looking into converting to LED lights for the DRL and signal lights as well as the rear and brake lights.
According to some old GM article that I read on the C5 ,the DRLs alone account for .25mpg.

I have also raised the tire pressure to about 40 psi. This seems to help also, although the ride gets a little rough sometimes.
I hope in January I will have my new cam delivered and then install the new -25% underdrive pulley that I have laying around.
If I come by a cheap electric waterpump by then I will install this too.
I read an another forum that one guy gained 4 mpg from pulley and waterpump.

What are your plans for your C5?

supersupereight 12-08-2009 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex99 (Post 145737)
Hi Marty,
Unfortunately the high cost of an electric waterpump for the LS1 is holding me back to purchase one.
I use 2 x5 Watt flexible solar panels in the back to charge the 12V battery while the car is parked.
Since I have other intrumentation onboard (Wideband O2 sensor, datalogger etc.) I tend to use more electricity than stock. In addition to that I drive mostly short distances so the battery gets weak after a while. I just installed them temporarily to see if they have an impact or not.

Another thing that I have done is to enable torque converter lockup in 3rd gear. Since you have a manual, this doesn't apply to your car.
So far I would say the underbody covers have improved mileage the most. Another big help is the engine block and transmission heater.

I'm also looking into converting to LED lights for the DRL and signal lights as well as the rear and brake lights.
According to some old GM article that I read on the C5 ,the DRLs alone account for .25mpg.

I have also raised the tire pressure to about 40 psi. This seems to help also, although the ride gets a little rough sometimes.
I hope in January I will have my new cam delivered and then install the new -25% underdrive pulley that I have laying around.
If I come by a cheap electric waterpump by then I will install this too.
I read an another forum that one guy gained 4 mpg from pulley and waterpump.

What are your plans for your C5?

Hey Alex

My plans right now for the C5 are to add aerodynamic tweeks first..
vortex gen. carbon fiber wing, venturi and underbody smooth panels

Ive also replaced the front headlights with projectors..
Weight savings of 40LBS
I will replace the power seats with lightweight racing seats..will be another 40 plus LBS.

I want and need to learn more about the power savings and fuel econmony saving when converting pull driven accesories to electric..
Hoping you can help me with that!

If your interested in LEDS register for corvetteforum.com and contact the member Radioflyer. He has already done many DRL conversions to LED(Audi style) and they look quite nice. Its also just a great place to ask questions and get answers. My contact name there is supersupereight.
Also you may want to contact JWMotoring on corvetteforum. He has the nicest rear LED halo lights. One of my next mods.

Also was wondering if you can help me understand what the wideband O2 sensor does and how it helps and how I would go about replacing the OEM sensor.

The solar panels sound great..It would benefit me greatly since I only drive the car April thru Nov. Any info on those. Where you got it, Specs, Install etc.

Im not to sure about raising you tire PSI..Ive always understood that this makes the tire ride more on the center are can cause premature wear of the center of the tire tread while the outer edges remain good. Could be costly considering how much replacement tires cost.

Lastly..I bought a battery tender..that I plug in every night. Its intelligent so it charges the battery when needed or sits in wait mode until charging is necessary. I payed about $ 26.00 at Autozone for a Schumaker brand unit. Ive learned from corvetteforum members that the Vette is notorious for eating battery power while parked.

TTYS
Happy Holidays:thumbup:
MARTY

Alex99 12-08-2009 02:41 PM

Hey Marty,
your plan sounds good, although I would be unsure about the benefit from a spoiler wing. The weight savings sound nice also.
Regarding the LEDs, I will only replace the bulbs. Not the complete housings. The Halo taillight look awesome though.
The Wideband O2 is an additional sensor in the exhaust that I use to tune the fuel maps in the ECU. I use EFILive for tuning the car. I still have and need the stock 4 narrowband O2s. The Wideband is in only temporarily to tune the engine.
I'm monitoring the treadwear on my tires very closely and could not find any uneven wear yet. When I do a burnout I can see the full width of rubber on the street even with 40psi.
I bought the solar panels from ebay. They come with a cigarette lighter jack that I plugged into the console compartment. I bought them to fight the battery drain during the daytime when the car stays in outside sun.

Which seats are you going with? Corbeau A4s? I have thought about this also.

Frank Lee 12-08-2009 05:30 PM

Quote:

Hey Alex

My plans right now for the C5 are to add aerodynamic tweeks first..
vortex gen. carbon fiber wing, venturi and underbody smooth panels

Marty

What? We haven't sufficiently proven the vgs and wing to not be in the interests of lower drag? :confused:

Alex99 12-08-2009 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 145827)
What? We haven't sufficiently proven the vgs and wing to not be in the interests of lower drag? :confused:

Frank, I agree on the VGs but I never questioned those.
Regarding the wing, I'm still not convinced that this specific Corvette wing will gain something. I might as well be totally wrong with my assumption.

Christ 12-08-2009 08:17 PM

Alex - He was saying that neither the VG's nor the wing will help with aero on that car. The VG's actually increase drag by an increase in Cd and A, but help overall because of the function they perform. They need to be employed on a much smaller scale to help out on a car, though, especially considering the Corvette already has a nearly ideal rear slope.

Frank Lee 12-08-2009 08:23 PM

I was remiss in not quoting Marty- that's who I was really speaking to as he indicated today that vgs and wing were still in the current plans.

Christ 12-08-2009 08:25 PM

Oh, I must have missed that post. Shame.

Alex99 12-09-2009 08:46 AM

I guess i got confused a little bit from the last posts.
To sum it up - Marty, don't do the VGs and wing and spend your money on other things!?
Please correct me if I got it wrong again.

Christ 12-09-2009 08:51 AM

Correct, Sir.

The VG's and wing are going to be a styling cue, not support clean aero. I'll have to look it up, but I believe the car actually makes downforce as it currently appears, without the addition of wings and fancy aero stuff.

alohaspirit 12-09-2009 09:26 AM

(besides some applications of the salt flat wing and the herod wing)

arent basically all wings detrimental to mpg

Christ 12-09-2009 09:30 AM

Any body extension can be considered detrimental unless it's benefit is larger than it's cost (not money cost, aero cost).

Each extension you add also adds skin drag and could create higher dynamic rolling resistance, etc... You have to ensure that the benefit of the mod will outweigh it's penalties.


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