EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   DIY / How-to (https://ecomodder.com/forum/diy-how.html)
-   -   New Project Suzuki Cultus "geo metro" (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/new-project-suzuki-cultus-geo-metro-37750.html)

Thorium-Synfuel 08-10-2019 06:21 AM

New Project Suzuki Cultus "geo metro"
 
Hey ecomodders,

I have a 1994 Suzuki Cultus/"geo metro", with 113,000 km on the clock and having read Darin's chronicles on the "firefly", got to thinking if there are a few mods worth considering straight up, that make more sense, in the years between Darin having penned them.

Firstly and while there is no rush as the 1L 3 cylinder engine is fine, with the now glut of 2 cylinder engines available in the market. I was wondering If anyone has looked at the atkinson cycle engines, or the bi-fuel "Fiat flatTwin Air", running on petrol or better yet CNG, as having enough torque for moving the econo-box?

Imagining what a lite-weight car could do with a new engine, got the rusty mental gears working, to send up a seek beacon, if anyone has thought about it here?

As the panda /Fiat gets 3.9L per 100 km on CNG. According to this site. Could we get 2.5 L when in the lighter Suzuki/geo metro...and with the alternator deleted? Sounds in the realm of possibilities right? Imagine the savings.

spritmonitor[DOT]de/en/overview/16-Fiat/136-Panda.html?fueltype=4

Secondly With the dropping price of high discharge rated lipo 18650 cells, namely the Sony VTC5, at 2 dollars a piece. A "4s" (4 in series) 16V/14.8V lipo battery pack. Doesn't look so expensive. With the small engine of the Suzuki Cultus, I wouldn't be surprised if just one or two packs would provide all that's needed. The "vaping community" have generated the nice benefit of making available battery cradles, that can handle very high amps. So as long as your destination has a power outlet. You can reload each cell into a large cell- phone, power bank, charge each cell up at 4V, then put each ond back into the cradles in the car...and away you go again.

I'd post up a pic of a proof of concept of the pack, that I threw together for an airsoft gun a few years ago.[though the forum doesn't permit pictures from mobile devices?] A gander at ebay for the "vaping 18650 battery cradles" and a 6 cell "power bank". Should return just how cheap this can be.

With a big enough supply of VTC5 cells, you can run the electrics in your car, keep your phone charged when on foot, energize your hi-power glove-box torch, or even keep your airsoft gun juiced up if you're like me. All wrapped up in one nice versatile setup.

The only thing, I'm curious about is if a dual pack, in parallel, would be sufficient to delete the alternator, to get us up and running. The VTC5 is used in cordless drills, so it can do a CCA "cold cranking amp" of 80A in a short pulse reportedly without issues. It's rated at 30A continuous(for those in vaping). Are these sufficient CCAs, to turn over, the tiny "geo metro" engine?

Naturally a quad pack, would be needed to really run head-lamps and peripherals in the car. That'd be $2 x 4(4) = $32 just for the 14.8V quad-pack, parallel-wired VTC5s. With a total capacity of (3000mAh)(4) = 12 Ah. Enough for most trips? Definitely, if your destination is work-to-home, both placez you can plug and charge your discreet "phone" power banks into.

freebeard 08-11-2019 02:21 AM

Quote:

I'd post up a pic of a proof of concept of the pack, that I threw together for an airsoft gun a few years ago.[though the forum doesn't permit pictures from mobile devices?]
The forum allows pix after the first five posts, so make a few here and there and it should work.

I guess your looking to do an alternator delete? I'd be more inclined to add a 20hp altermotor with serpentine belt and up-rate the battery pack to make it a mild hybrid.

Piotrsko 08-12-2019 10:54 AM

Be very careful on the batteries, there's a lot of junk masquerading as quality. The battery guy I go to talks of all these wonder cells that actually test as used standards with fancy shrink wrap covers.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-27-2019 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel (Post 604266)
Firstly and while there is no rush as the 1L 3 cylinder engine is fine, with the now glut of 2 cylinder engines available in the market. I was wondering If anyone has looked at the atkinson cycle engines, or the bi-fuel "Fiat flatTwin Air", running on petrol or better yet CNG, as having enough torque for moving the econo-box?

Honestly it does surprise me that Fiat is likely to phase the TwinAir out as soon as some naturally-aspirated port-injection versions of the GSE/FireFly eventually make their way into the European market.

But anyway, I have already lurked about trying some parallel-twin engine in the 500 to 1000cc range in a small car.

Thorium-Synfuel 09-17-2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 605414)
Honestly it does surprise me that Fiat is likely to phase the TwinAir out as soon as some naturally-aspirated port-injection versions of the GSE/FireFly eventually make their way into the European market.

But anyway, I have already lurked about trying some parallel-twin engine in the 500 to 1000cc range in a small car.


What kind of assessment/'lurking' have you done on the concept of trying a parallel-twin swapped into the geo metro?

Or better yet, the 1980s CRX HF. Can you imagine the fuel efficiency savings?

Thorium-Synfuel 09-17-2019 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 604378)
Be very careful on the batteries, there's a lot of junk masquerading as quality. The battery guy I go to talks of all these wonder cells that actually test as used standards with fancy shrink wrap covers.

Too true, 'Mooch' who does a bunch of lipo battery testing and has seemingly created an independent website of detailed experimental results, for a galaxy of cells and manufacturers, generally points to ebay as a source of a lot of counterfeits.

However the Sony - VTC5A model, is hard to copy. Alongside the authentic weight and appearance that 'Mooch' makes available, more difficult attributes of the cell, unlike others, is that very high 80 Amp pulse discharge capability.

I have an airsoft 'gun' that I've modded to accept these cells specifically and while I haven't bought from ebay, if or when I do, I'll know straight away of the cells are a fake. As other lipo designs just don't have that high discharge capability, so I'll hear the motor struggling and the suspect 'VTC5A' battery, heating up on full auto. Due to other cells having higher internal resistance.

Not exactly 'scientific proof' of 100% authenticity but as they say 'proof in the pudding is in the eating of it'.

Thorium-Synfuel 09-17-2019 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 604316)
The forum allows pix after the first five posts, so make a few here and there and it should work.

I guess your looking to do an alternator delete? I'd be more inclined to add a 20hp altermotor with serpentine belt and up-rate the battery pack to make it a mild hybrid.


A mild hybrid would be a neat idea, especially as I do a lot of highway/motorway driving here in Ireland, that the 'Geo metro' isn't the most suited for, in fuel efficiency.

It's what got me thinking of doing a total engine swap, towards something more efficient in the sustained role, of keeping the vehicle at 120 Km/h in a prolonged highway travel. I haven't found any that fit the criteria. That on paper, point to definite large savings. An engine, at sub 50 horsepower(36 kW), or if one cannot be found, a kind of supplemental auxillary-power mini-IC engine mod, in which a small engine probably no more than ~5 horsepower, is added under the hood, just sufficent to keep the car moving at highway speeds?

Albeit finding the name of such an efficient motor. Do they exist? Is as much a roadblock as the thought you've put in my head, of a 20 horsepower EV altermotor, engaging intermittently, in a pulse-and-glide cycle, just to keep the car moving at the highway speeds, that the stock 50 hp engine has got the car up to and reached. Could that result in large savings?

This mild EV hybrid, would be something of the reverse of the usual arrangement, of the EV motor used for short distance travel and the IC engine only engaged, for long, once the battery-pack is depleted.

Though it might make more sense, to wonder about reversing the typical mild-hybrid arrangement,as in this particular commute situation, it's 90% highway and a 200 km round trip, morning and evening. With the driver doing as much pulse-and-glide as other drivers around, permit.

Having googled around there, I haven't found much online about the addition of a mild-hybrid to a geo metro.

While 'CoyoteX' added a proof-of-concept' 'mild hybrid' motor system for short distance travel here, in this thread, they interestingly dissuade anyone from following in their particular foot steps, as the chain-drive kept snapping...would there be a go-to 'mild hybrid' motor and transmission system, you could recommend?

geometroforum[dot]com/electric-motor-on-a-geo-metro-t36311-s10.html

freebeard 09-17-2019 01:02 PM

Thanks for asking.

Controller mods or build for E-assist altermotor
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z4Zihl-vsj...-EASSIST-5.jpg
Quote:

At the LA Auto Show, on November 15, 2010, General Motors announced that it would be releasing an all-new version of the BAS system available in the 2012 Buick LaCrosse.[8] While still a Belted Alternator Starter system, the system is named eAssist and includes a larger more powerful Hitachi-supplied[citation needed] 115 Volt Lithium Ion battery and a 15 kW (20 hp) motor-generator that delivers 79 lbft (107 Nm) of torque.
The dimensions are similar to my Dasher's alternator, same diameter and an inch longer, plus that junction box on the end.

One advantage I see is regeneration. That saves the brakes.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-20-2019 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel (Post 606818)
What kind of assessment/'lurking' have you done on the concept of trying a parallel-twin swapped into the geo metro?

Not specifically the Geo Metro. When I was 13, there was a Brazilian variant of the Opel Corsa B rebadged as a Chevrolet at home, with a 1.0L version of the Family 1 engine because GM didn't want to try the 3-cyl here. I didn't pay too much attention to the torque curves by then, so I assumed a Honda CB 500 engine would be up to the task. But anyway, nowadays if I were going to do a 2-cyl motorcycle engine swap maybe I'd consider the engine of a Triumph Bonneville, as it has a similar torque output to that old Corsa.


Quote:

Or better yet, the 1980s CRX HF. Can you imagine the fuel efficiency savings?
Honestly I wouldn't expect some outstanding fuel savings, since a considerably smaller engine would have to rev higher in order to reach the same speed, with a shorter differential ratio to compensate for the lower torque output. Some eventual fuel savings would be more related to weight savings, which would also not be so impressive.

Thorium-Synfuel 09-23-2019 08:20 AM

Torque curves are important to match, that is why swapping the G10 engine of the suzuki/geo metro with the "0.9 twin air natural power" of the panda Fiat, looks about as hand-in-glove as you can get. That car gets about the same-to-slightly worse fuel economy as the venrable Geo metro but it weighs some 200-500 kg more. So the possibilty of large fuel savings are definitely there. As what would a Fiat Panda achieve, if you snapped the fingers and 500kg of its mass removed? The difference between the stock Fiat Panda and the "500L", which goes the other way in mass, is indicative of substantial fuel savings by trimming about 200 kg. From some 1250 kg in the 500L model to 1000 kg in the Fiat Panda. So with the Metro at the featherweight 750 kg. What do you think it could achieve on the highway?

Plus with the added boon that the geo metro will now be able to run on dual fuel, so CNG if you choose. This all before the alternator delete. So combined, would a routine
3 L / 100 km definitely be in reach, especially for highway driving?

Essentially this could be thought of, as a full drive-train swap from the. 0.9L Fiat panda with the "twin natural power" engine, into the Geo Metro. When the latter doesn't even have a 6 speed and weighs some 250 kg less. Is it almost reaching out and begging, in hushed whisper for someone to try it? To at least enquire about it. The revs will be low throughout with the lower mass to haul around. So would it be even better than the Geo Metro HF?

Darin who did that conversion from the firefly/metro to the HF, wonder what he'd say about swapping the drive-train from the 0.9 L "Fiat natural power", into his?

Is he still around?

I haven't come across any "0.9 twin air natural power" engines, here in Ireland. Don't know if it even sold. Though for those of you with it coming into breaker yards, should you swap the drive-train into the geo metro. You would have my full attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_500L

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_TwinAir_engine

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-23-2019 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel (Post 607283)
The difference between the stock Fiat Panda and the "500L", which goes the other way in mass, is indicative of substantial fuel savings by trimming about 200 kg. From some 1250 kg in the 500L model to 1000 kg in the Fiat Panda. So with the Metro at the featherweight 750 kg. What do you think it could achieve on the highway?

Besides weight reduction, aerodynamics also play a relevant role on that matter.


Quote:

I haven't come across any "0.9 twin air natural power" engines, here in Ireland. Don't know if it even sold.
AFAIK in Ireland LPG is more usual as a motor fuel than CNG.

Thorium-Synfuel 09-30-2019 01:56 PM

True on both counts, I actually haven't seen CNG cars here apart from in the roll-out program commencing in Dublin, that is primarily advertised on Taxi-wagons. The Rest of the Island has LPG in the usual, about 2% of fuel stations. CNG filling is Dublin specific at present. Might be one in Belfast, not sure.

Though on the power-train swap, out from the bi-fuel '0.9 natural power' and into the Geo-metro/suzuki cultus. It seems to make the most sense for fuel savings and the environment, doing CNG driving, if or when the CNG injection into the grid becomes 'renewable'/carbon neutral.

The main snag at the moment, is finding a breaker yard with a Fiat Panda/Alfa Mito/Ypsilon equipped with this very specific 'echochic' ''0.9 L natural power'' engine.

The ''0.9L turbo Fiat 500'' is available in Ireland but it isn't the specific bi-fuel 'natural power' and it isn't in a breakers-yard, as of yet :thumbup:

I might just have to enquire from the 0.9L flat twin guys on the forum? if the same engine, once the turbo is removed, also runs on CNG and what is the necessary lay-out, on swapping over and then importing CNG tanks and lines and such.

As a gripe, it seems to be a common trend in Ireland, with fuel efficient cars, neither the Geo Metro XFi, the CRX HF nor these '0.9L natural power' equipped cars may ever have been offered for sale. It's kind of annoying. Not even the Honda Civic GX(CNG), Or first generation, Honda Insight were ever sold here, it's kind of crazy.:(


On the aerodynamic front you bring up, from what I've found online.

The Cd of the stock suzuki cultus/geo-metro is 0.32, while drag is dependent on many things, the frontal Area x the Cd is a good metric of comparison. So together the CdA is in the mid sixes(~6.79) according to the below chart.

The Cd of the Panda, from what little I could find is a similar 0.32. Data on the CdA or anything indicative of the actual drag than just a listed coefficient of 0.32, has proven more elusive to determine than expected. Anyone here have any idea?

As an end note, something that many here might relate to is, do we all share the picture of an ideal mass produced car, as taking the shape of something like a Honda CRX HF in style with that inherent low, in the fives(5.57) CdA, paired with a new engine, a low displacement CNG engine, to go about achieving close to the best of both worlds : low weight, the best CdA around in this list below and... combined with a most efficient bi-fuel gas engine. Tasty.

Essentially, it could be thought of as though a Honda GX and Honda CRX HF got together and had a descendent, with the 1.7 L CNG engine of the 'GX' onboard, as the powerblock, replaced with these modern 0.9L engines, sitting whispering under in the engine bay instead.

Why that car isn't for sale:confused: is lamentable, manufacturers really should get on it, as this arms-race obsession with crash testing, resulting in beefier and beefier SUV/MPVs be damned, we should boycott new cars, until the roomy, sporty Honda CRX sized cars, come back. I mean, why did cars get so tall, its a mass roll-over event waiting to happen?).


https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Vehicle_C...t_of_Drag_List

Anyway, here are some engine bay videos of the 0.9L flat twin engine, albeit showing the unfortunately ubiquitous 0.9L-turbo-model, it overall depicts the engine to have the suitable kind of dimensions to fit into a Geo-metro(or CRX HF), pretty easily, what do you think?

Also one of the reasons I'm leaning more toward CNG and not electric, is well Ireland has for the foreseeable future, a 80% CCGT(combined cycle gas turbine) powered electric grid, so the CO2 and not to mention financial cost of charging an EV car, is about three times the price to charge as say, in the US, then you factor in that the grid is CNG anyway, for the only thing the environment cares about, the 'well-to-wheel' efficiency. A CNG car would beat an EV hands down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF7KctCVkUc

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-05-2019 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel (Post 607952)
Though on the power-train swap, out from the bi-fuel '0.9 natural power' and into the Geo-metro/suzuki cultus. It seems to make the most sense for fuel savings and the environment, doing CNG driving, if or when the CNG injection into the grid becomes 'renewable'/carbon neutral.

Biomethane makes a lot of sense, as it's possible to be produced with agricultural residues, sewage and domestic waste. Might become more important regarding the biological stability of carbon and nitrogen cycles than running a fleet of EVs.


Quote:

I might just have to enquire from the 0.9L flat twin guys on the forum? if the same engine, once the turbo is removed, also runs on CNG and what is the necessary lay-out, on swapping over and then importing CNG tanks and lines and such.
That's a parallel-twin, not a flat-twin. But anyway, either with natural aspiration or forced induction, converting a port-injection engine to CNG is not rocket-science.


Quote:

Anyway, here are some engine bay videos of the 0.9L flat twin engine, albeit showing the unfortunately ubiquitous 0.9L-turbo-model, it overall depicts the engine to have the suitable kind of dimensions to fit into a Geo-metro(or CRX HF), pretty easily, what do you think?
Not so sure how easy it would fit, but it does seem suitable.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:30 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com