New Project Suzuki Cultus "geo metro"

[Thorium-Synfuel]

Hey ecomodders,

I have a 1994 Suzuki Cultus/"geo metro", with 113,000 km on the clock and having read Darin's chronicles on the "firefly", got to thinking if there are a few mods worth considering straight up, that make more sense, in the years between Darin having penned them.

Firstly and while there is no rush as the 1L 3 cylinder engine is fine, with the now glut of 2 cylinder engines available in the market. I was wondering If anyone has looked at the atkinson cycle engines, or the bi-fuel "Fiat flatTwin Air", running on petrol or better yet CNG, as having enough torque for moving the econo-box?

Imagining what a lite-weight car could do with a new engine, got the rusty mental gears working, to send up a seek beacon, if anyone has thought about it here?

As the panda /Fiat gets 3.9L per 100 km on CNG. According to this site. Could we get 2.5 L when in the lighter Suzuki/geo metro...and with the alternator deleted? Sounds in the realm of possibilities right? Imagine the savings.

spritmonitor[DOT]de/en/overview/16-Fiat/136-Panda.html?fueltype=4

Secondly With the dropping price of high discharge rated lipo 18650 cells, namely the Sony VTC5, at 2 dollars a piece. A "4s" (4 in series) 16V/14.8V lipo battery pack. Doesn't look so expensive. With the small engine of the Suzuki Cultus, I wouldn't be surprised if just one or two packs would provide all that's needed. The "vaping community" have generated the nice benefit of making available battery cradles, that can handle very high amps. So as long as your destination has a power outlet. You can reload each cell into a large cell- phone, power bank, charge each cell up at 4V, then put each ond back into the cradles in the car...and away you go again.

I'd post up a pic of a proof of concept of the pack, that I threw together for an airsoft gun a few years ago.[though the forum doesn't permit pictures from mobile devices?] A gander at ebay for the "vaping 18650 battery cradles" and a 6 cell "power bank". Should return just how cheap this can be.

With a big enough supply of VTC5 cells, you can run the electrics in your car, keep your phone charged when on foot, energize your hi-power glove-box torch, or even keep your airsoft gun juiced up if you're like me. All wrapped up in one nice versatile setup.

The only thing, I'm curious about is if a dual pack, in parallel, would be sufficient to delete the alternator, to get us up and running. The VTC5 is used in cordless drills, so it can do a CCA "cold cranking amp" of 80A in a short pulse reportedly without issues. It's rated at 30A continuous(for those in vaping). Are these sufficient CCAs, to turn over, the tiny "geo metro" engine?

Naturally a quad pack, would be needed to really run head-lamps and peripherals in the car. That'd be $2 x 4(4) = $32 just for the 14.8V quad-pack, parallel-wired VTC5s. With a total capacity of (3000mAh)(4) = 12 Ah. Enough for most trips? Definitely, if your destination is work-to-home, both placez you can plug and charge your discreet "phone" power banks into.

[freebeard]

I'd post up a pic of a proof of concept of the pack, that I threw together for an airsoft gun a few years ago.[though the forum doesn't permit pictures from mobile devices?]

The forum allows pix after the first five posts, so make a few here and there and it should work.

I guess your looking to do an alternator delete? I'd be more inclined to add a 20hp altermotor with serpentine belt and up-rate the battery pack to make it a mild hybrid.

[Piotrsko]

Be very careful on the batteries, there's a lot of junk masquerading as quality. The battery guy I go to talks of all these wonder cells that actually test as used standards with fancy shrink wrap covers.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel

Firstly and while there is no rush as the 1L 3 cylinder engine is fine, with the now glut of 2 cylinder engines available in the market. I was wondering If anyone has looked at the atkinson cycle engines, or the bi-fuel "Fiat flatTwin Air", running on petrol or better yet CNG, as having enough torque for moving the econo-box?

Honestly it does surprise me that Fiat is likely to phase the TwinAir out as soon as some naturally-aspirated port-injection versions of the GSE/FireFly eventually make their way into the European market.

But anyway, I have already lurked about trying some parallel-twin engine in the 500 to 1000cc range in a small car.

[Thorium-Synfuel]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Honestly it does surprise me that Fiat is likely to phase the TwinAir out as soon as some naturally-aspirated port-injection versions of the GSE/FireFly eventually make their way into the European market.

But anyway, I have already lurked about trying some parallel-twin engine in the 500 to 1000cc range in a small car.

What kind of assessment/'lurking' have you done on the concept of trying a parallel-twin swapped into the geo metro?

Or better yet, the 1980s CRX HF. Can you imagine the fuel efficiency savings?

[Thorium-Synfuel]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Be very careful on the batteries, there's a lot of junk masquerading as quality. The battery guy I go to talks of all these wonder cells that actually test as used standards with fancy shrink wrap covers.

Too true, 'Mooch' who does a bunch of lipo battery testing and has seemingly created an independent website of detailed experimental results, for a galaxy of cells and manufacturers, generally points to ebay as a source of a lot of counterfeits.

However the Sony - VTC5A model, is hard to copy. Alongside the authentic weight and appearance that 'Mooch' makes available, more difficult attributes of the cell, unlike others, is that very high 80 Amp pulse discharge capability.

I have an airsoft 'gun' that I've modded to accept these cells specifically and while I haven't bought from ebay, if or when I do, I'll know straight away of the cells are a fake. As other lipo designs just don't have that high discharge capability, so I'll hear the motor struggling and the suspect 'VTC5A' battery, heating up on full auto. Due to other cells having higher internal resistance.

Not exactly 'scientific proof' of 100% authenticity but as they say 'proof in the pudding is in the eating of it'.

[Thorium-Synfuel]

Originally Posted by freebeard

The forum allows pix after the first five posts, so make a few here and there and it should work.

I guess your looking to do an alternator delete? I'd be more inclined to add a 20hp altermotor with serpentine belt and up-rate the battery pack to make it a mild hybrid.

A mild hybrid would be a neat idea, especially as I do a lot of highway/motorway driving here in Ireland, that the 'Geo metro' isn't the most suited for, in fuel efficiency.

It's what got me thinking of doing a total engine swap, towards something more efficient in the sustained role, of keeping the vehicle at 120 Km/h in a prolonged highway travel. I haven't found any that fit the criteria. That on paper, point to definite large savings. An engine, at sub 50 horsepower(36 kW), or if one cannot be found, a kind of supplemental auxillary-power mini-IC engine mod, in which a small engine probably no more than ~5 horsepower, is added under the hood, just sufficent to keep the car moving at highway speeds?

Albeit finding the name of such an efficient motor. Do they exist? Is as much a roadblock as the thought you've put in my head, of a 20 horsepower EV altermotor, engaging intermittently, in a pulse-and-glide cycle, just to keep the car moving at the highway speeds, that the stock 50 hp engine has got the car up to and reached. Could that result in large savings?

This mild EV hybrid, would be something of the reverse of the usual arrangement, of the EV motor used for short distance travel and the IC engine only engaged, for long, once the battery-pack is depleted.

Though it might make more sense, to wonder about reversing the typical mild-hybrid arrangement,as in this particular commute situation, it's 90% highway and a 200 km round trip, morning and evening. With the driver doing as much pulse-and-glide as other drivers around, permit.

Having googled around there, I haven't found much online about the addition of a mild-hybrid to a geo metro.

While 'CoyoteX' added a proof-of-concept' 'mild hybrid' motor system for short distance travel here, in this thread, they interestingly dissuade anyone from following in their particular foot steps, as the chain-drive kept snapping...would there be a go-to 'mild hybrid' motor and transmission system, you could recommend?

geometroforum[dot]com/electric-motor-on-a-geo-metro-t36311-s10.html

[freebeard]

Thanks for asking.

Controller mods or build for E-assist altermotor

At the LA Auto Show, on November 15, 2010, General Motors announced that it would be releasing an all-new version of the BAS system available in the 2012 Buick LaCrosse.[8] While still a Belted Alternator Starter system, the system is named eAssist and includes a larger more powerful Hitachi-supplied[citation needed] 115 Volt Lithium Ion battery and a 15 kW (20 hp) motor-generator that delivers 79 lb·ft (107 N·m) of torque.

The dimensions are similar to my Dasher's alternator, same diameter and an inch longer, plus that junction box on the end.

One advantage I see is regeneration. That saves the brakes.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel

What kind of assessment/'lurking' have you done on the concept of trying a parallel-twin swapped into the geo metro?

Not specifically the Geo Metro. When I was 13, there was a Brazilian variant of the Opel Corsa B rebadged as a Chevrolet at home, with a 1.0L version of the Family 1 engine because GM didn't want to try the 3-cyl here. I didn't pay too much attention to the torque curves by then, so I assumed a Honda CB 500 engine would be up to the task. But anyway, nowadays if I were going to do a 2-cyl motorcycle engine swap maybe I'd consider the engine of a Triumph Bonneville, as it has a similar torque output to that old Corsa.

Or better yet, the 1980s CRX HF. Can you imagine the fuel efficiency savings?

Honestly I wouldn't expect some outstanding fuel savings, since a considerably smaller engine would have to rev higher in order to reach the same speed, with a shorter differential ratio to compensate for the lower torque output. Some eventual fuel savings would be more related to weight savings, which would also not be so impressive.

[Thorium-Synfuel]

Torque curves are important to match, that is why swapping the G10 engine of the suzuki/geo metro with the "0.9 twin air natural power" of the panda Fiat, looks about as hand-in-glove as you can get. That car gets about the same-to-slightly worse fuel economy as the venrable Geo metro but it weighs some 200-500 kg more. So the possibilty of large fuel savings are definitely there. As what would a Fiat Panda achieve, if you snapped the fingers and 500kg of its mass removed? The difference between the stock Fiat Panda and the "500L", which goes the other way in mass, is indicative of substantial fuel savings by trimming about 200 kg. From some 1250 kg in the 500L model to 1000 kg in the Fiat Panda. So with the Metro at the featherweight 750 kg. What do you think it could achieve on the highway?

Plus with the added boon that the geo metro will now be able to run on dual fuel, so CNG if you choose. This all before the alternator delete. So combined, would a routine
3 L / 100 km definitely be in reach, especially for highway driving?

Essentially this could be thought of, as a full drive-train swap from the. 0.9L Fiat panda with the "twin natural power" engine, into the Geo Metro. When the latter doesn't even have a 6 speed and weighs some 250 kg less. Is it almost reaching out and begging, in hushed whisper for someone to try it? To at least enquire about it. The revs will be low throughout with the lower mass to haul around. So would it be even better than the Geo Metro HF?

Darin who did that conversion from the firefly/metro to the HF, wonder what he'd say about swapping the drive-train from the 0.9 L "Fiat natural power", into his?

Is he still around?

I haven't come across any "0.9 twin air natural power" engines, here in Ireland. Don't know if it even sold. Though for those of you with it coming into breaker yards, should you swap the drive-train into the geo metro. You would have my full attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_500L

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_TwinAir_engine