New Vetter Challenge
 

Just got an e-mail from Craig Vetter about The New Vetter Challenge. Should be fun to enter/follow. craigvetter.com to check it out.

Thanks for posting. I'm off to see what he's up to next...

I wish I had a bike ready for that :(

When I got the mail I was soooo tempted to bail on everything and build a bike. My plans are based on a Yamaha XV250 cruiser with an even lower seat, longer swingarm and almost fully faired. The little yammie (along with it's Lifan clone) have a long stroke, torquey engine that is really efficient and can tolerate taller gearing pretty easily.

The tough part of this whole thing is making the aerodynamics. Craigs event conditions are pretty severe. The ride is fast and into headwinds where aerodynamics make or break an entrant. The mechanical bits are existing for the most part but making a good shell is what keeps at least me from entering, maybe others.

Hmmm, the new cbr250r should make an ideal base for this effort. Potential of a 100mpg bike is there.

Doug

The CBR250 has good potential and could well get 100mpg with good conditions and using hypermiling skills. The conditions Craig uses in his events though are really tough. No way will the stock CBR250 reach 100mpg during one of his rides, I'd guess maybe 70 with the rider in a tuck most of the way.

Craigs events make a point that aerodynamics are the only way to get outstanding fuel economy at higher speeds. And oh, by the way, rider comfort is also drastically improved. And you get some good storage for your stuff. It is really a win all the way around, it just doesn't look like the motorcycle your grand daddy rode.

Gads, we really need more people like him to promote this line of thought. More independent builders, customizers, even hackers like me.

I wonder if a Canadian showed up with a streamlined Honda CBR 125RR how it would stack up against Vetter's machine. :)

For some reason Honda's not selling that bike in the U.S.

I agree beatr911 but I didn't mean in stock form. What I meant by a base was it could probably be a 100mpg bike for the challenge with some aerodynamic modifications.

I didn't know about the cbr125rr, if it comes with FI, it should be an even better platform. However, even if Honda isn't releasing it for the US market, Aprilia is releasing a 125cc based on looking like a small scale RSV4. This one has great potential.
2012 Aprilia RS4 125 Photo Gallery - Motorcycle USA

Doug

As far as I know, it's got FI. It's also got a cat, so it doesn't stink. :)

Looking forward to Vetter's Challenge, there will surely be some great machines and great inovators there. My struggle is deciding to build what suits my needs or build a "Challenge Bike" that overkills MY daily commute. Trying not to overthink this, but will keep working in the garage and keeping an eye on them:) Can't wait to see where all the ralleys will be held and with what criteria.

What kind of mileage is everyone aiming for ?
100 MPG should be easy.
( The guy on the front page already gets over 200 MPG.)

lol!

I don't understand why thats funny. The guy on the front page got 100 MPG from his scooter when it was stock.
With gearing and aero mods he is getting over twice that.

Getting a 100mpg is achieving the "Holy Grail" of motorcycle FE, far from easy. The Dutch effort with the Honda is fantastic but the base model he used, a ANF125i Innova, isn't available in the US. Until the writeup, I'd never heard of it. It's unfortunate as 100mpg with no modifications and ability for 55mph would be nice.

I don't believe I would be able to ride the Dutch bike comfortably with the seating modification and even though the feet can reach the ground in the aero shell, I have some reservations about everyday safety practicality but I tip my hat to the astounding 200+ mpg achievement.

In any regards, the humor was in relation to the "easy" comment in consideration of the bikes that are available in the US market.

Doug

My brother got 85 mpg on his 1975 honda 450cc 4 stroke 2 cylinder motorcycle without aeromods in 1983, driving at highway speed with camping equipment strapped on. He changed the drive sprockets.

I have a '71 CB450 with an oversized drive sprocket. It hasn't been on the road in years but I don't recall ever getting more than 60 mpg.

I hear ya, CD. Mr Jacobs`s Honda streamliner is a marvel for sure, but as the other folks have mentioned, it`s the conditions that Vetter puts on the vehicles that make it so challenging. As he says himself, any moped will get 100 MPG. But a moped isn`t useful enough to keep most people satisfied for day to day transportation, so he`s challenging people to come up with vehicles that will get 100 MPG and STILL be usefull. The idea behind his challenge is explained on his website- very interresting. Here`s what he requires from the vehicles:

Vetter Challenge rules

I echo what bdesj said. If you go to craigvetter.com and see what the conditions are you will see that they are real driving conditions on real roads in real wind and weather conditions, at the posted speed limit which are between 65mph and 70mph. Generaly speeking fuel economy claims about what other people get for fuel consumpion are suspect...:confused:

Out where Vetter is, you also have some pretty extreme grades to climb, with the ever-present parade of 100 speeders trying to crawl up your tailpipe at the same time.

I wonder why the owner of the Honda 230l being air cooled chose to not have an air inlet for the motor to cool down. He stated that he would spray water on the motor to cool it down. Couldn't be good for the motor at all!

I suspect that the problem is that the air that does get inside the fairing is not being ducted too the engine and away from the engine, in a way that is effective for cooling. in general if you spray water onto an air cooled engine in the same way that rain would spray on it it is harmless.

I wasn't worried about rain hurting the motor. It is from a dirtbike engine and those things are made to withstand about anything. I was concerned with the effectiveness of just spraying water on the motor and maybe missing a spot and the heat build up in one area damaging the motor

One more thing that will make this year's contestants almost certainly unable to achieve the fe of earlier Vetter challenges is the inability to P&G.

The last two motorcycles I had on the road were a Suzuki DRZ 400s Dual Sport and a Suzuki Hayabusa 1300. The DRZ was stock except for having the air box opened up with an aftermarket filter and a jet kit. No fairings and I never got worse than 52 MPG on my daily commute which included WO throttle on the interstate and some stop and go traffic. On back road blasts I would get over 60 MPG. The Hayabusa (fastest production motorcycle at the time and still one of, if not the fastest production bike) had dynoed 160 RWHP (bone stock from the factory 1.3 liter ) and weighted around 550 lbs. On the interstate, I never got less than 42.5 MPG usually got 45.5 MPG no matter how fast I rode. Did a 80 mile run after filling up one evening that included a stretch of construction zone (45 MPH) on 75 North. The high number on my GPS that night was 155 MPH. The trip took 1 hour and produced 45.5 MPG. The Hayabusa is very aerodynamic and designed for top speed. I know another person that managed to get well over 50 MPG on one with some minor tuning. Some pretty amazing stuff out there these days...

The Suzuki hayabusa 1300 is not "...very aerodynamic..." it is very powerful,
...160 RWHP... It may have one or two aerodynamic "features", and that is all. If you want to see a "very aerodynamic" motorcycle go to the craigvetter.com web site.

True, but as far as conventional high performance motorcycles go, it's the best overall shape available. It's the base for most Land Speed Racing efforts because of it's superior aerodynamics.

A modified design just went 311 MPH.

Compared to some of the non-conventional Vetter Challenge cycles it is pretty dirty, but so are all conventional designs.


Jay

Here's a few links to Craig Vetter's site, in case some of you aren't familiar with his latest aero project.

Craig Vetter Fuel Economy better mileage

2011 Vetter Streamliner-Chap 41

2011 Vetter Streamliner-Chap 42

There's a ton more info and links buried in each page.

Latest Vetter Challenge is set to begin at Mid Ohio racetrack in a couple of days (July 22, 2011).

2011 Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Vintage Days

Should be interesting.


Jay

Jay, 150mph with a 50cc engine is streamlined :) 33% faster (200mph) with 26 TIMES the displacement is dogsnot by comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U4bOtifdFU

I agree- that is amazing! 50cc 2-stroke Aprilia, isn't it?

But 311 MPH, no matter what size engine, is not dogsnot! Remember, it's still a sit-on cycle and not fully streamlined.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...g/cf6eb791.jpg


Jay

quite a bit of aerodynamics over a stock busa actually, maybe a stretch job too, and what, a turbo?

The accomplishment is in the guys moxy on two wheels, not in anyone's understanding of power and aerodynamics methinks or some innate busa mystique, certainly not an exercise in fuel efficiency :)


http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9...lwarner311.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RWTzgsaXvc...1300%2BRed.jpg



470mpg on real roads with a 185cc bike is seriously impressive, on an economy forum anyway (and that was 26 years ago!! )
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470...u%20talks.html
http://www.craigvetter.com/images/47...su-250-web.jpg

But aerodynamically, they're using almost the same solution - though the Busa could be a bit more streamlined

That is what I am trying to say, in response to:
The thing that went 311mph bears no resemblance to a stock busa in shape or in power output.

The other point is that 311mph is a function of aerodynamic drag and power, and not fuel efficiency, though minimal drag certainly helps there, we cannot draw any conclusions from the 311mph figure, it is meaningless in an economy discussion.

OK, it is modified quite a bit from the stock Busa shape, but my original point was that the stock Busa shape is as aero as you can get in a production high performance motorcycle - even though it's not particularly aero.

Streamlining, for economy or top speed, is meaningful in this discussion IMO.

Even though it required massive HP to go 311 MPH, aerodynamics and drag reduction are still major factors - just like they are when striving for maximum economy.

The 311 MPH Busa's overall shape and aero improvements could still be beneficial to someone with a 250cc engine striving for 100 (200?) MPG, so it's worth discussing.


Jay

I'd like to see more info on this, but I've not been able to find much.

The local library has Craig Vetter's "How They Got 470 MPG" video ($25 on his site), but unfortunately it's a recording of Vetter speaking to a group at a convention. No specifics about getting 470 MPG, just his thoughts on why we need vehicles with better fuel economy.

Vetter page (link above) is the only real info I've seen about it.


Jay

Breaking speed records with high power engines is a red herring, having enough power to keep up and stay up with traffic is really the only power requirement.

Guess I will have to do your homework for you :rolleyes:

Schultz Engineering - Electric Motorcycle Aerodynamics
"The ZX-12R has a frontal area of 6.09 ft2 (0.566 m2), physically larger than the Hayabusa, which is 6.01 ft2 (0.558 m2 ). ...
coefficient of drag, which is 0.603 for the 12R and 0.561 for the Hayabusa...
It's worth remembering, however, that neither of these CD figures indicate a particularly impressive degree of streamlining...
Such is the nature of streetbikes, where performance derives mostly from extreme power-to-weight ratios..."

You are not going to win a vetter competition with a 0.561 CD, though a really small person on a really small bike might.

In fact the BMW K 1 achieved a Cd of 0.48 according to Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles by Hucho, page 515 of the 4th edition, So the Hyabusa is not "...very aerodynamic..." even by the low standards of production motorcycles. There are pictures on this web site of the BMW K 1. Look in the Aerodynamics section, motorcycle aero mods.

I just got Craig's email with the official results of the 7/22 2011 Mid-Ohio Vetter Challenge and they are :

#1 Max Perethian on his NX250 consumed $2.47... ($.0237 per mile) 152.88 mpg

#2 Fred Hayes HDT Diesel consumed $2.68 in bio Diesel... ($.0257 per mile)
143.53 mpg

#3 Jack McCornack Diesel car consumed $3.14 Diesel... ($.0301 per mile) 127.38
mpg

#4 Dale on Hayes HDT Diesel #2 consumed $3.23 in bio Diesel... ($.031 per mile)
119.22 mpg

#5 Alan Smith, 250 Ninja consumed $3.27 in pump gas... ($.0314 per mile) 115.9
mpg

#6 Craig Vetter, Honda 250 scooter $3.57 in pump gas...($.0343 per mile) 109.57
mpg

#7 Ted Visscher F650 GS consumed $5.30 in pump gas... ($.0509 per mile) 73.64
mpg

#8 Tim Yow KLR 650 consumed $5.62 in pump gas... ($.0539 per mile) 69.57 mpg

#9 Charly Perethian Honda CB400T twin consumed $8.59 in pump gas... ($.0824 per
mile) 45.47 mpg

The Electric Challenge:

I never expected the electric bikes to complete the complete ride. All three
electric bikes entered stopped and turned around at the first break, 38 miles
into the ride where they recharged at an RV park. As far as I know, they all
returned on their own power.

Pretty awesome ! Congratulations to Craig and all the Vetter Challenge competitors , they all did outstanding efforts.

all the best L&S

I wonder if this is the winning NX250 -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...g/a6bb3d77.jpg

You'd think it would have a fairing though, pretty sure he's the founder of Rifle and Parabellum Fairings.

It's credited as Charly Perethian, and was located on Vetter's site here -

2011-Craig Vetter Challengers

I haven't seen any info from the latest Vetter Challenge, other than what low & slow posted above (thanks l&s).

If anyone has seen more info, please post it.

Thanks.


Jay

Yah, no pics, and I don't think Charlie and Max are the same person.

I'm reasonably sure the 250 class did not go from 135 to 153 mpg by getting rid of aerodynamics :)

"Craig Vetter started his famous motorcycle high mileage contests which Charly saw as a great aerodynamic research project, getting 135 mpg (2nd place) in 1981, on his XL250."
BMW Motorcycle Windshields, Fairings

They must not have had the fierce Cali x-winds as everyone did better than in the past... DETAILS, I WANT DETAILS!!!

Route: speeds? rates of acceleration? stops? grades? winds? Length was 104.22-104.32 miles (someone put on .10 mile more?) Fuel costs: gas 3.63/g; bio-diesel 3.69/g; diesel 3.82/g? What did the electricity cost for the EVs? Why didn't they try to go farther?