Oil change mileage??
 

Hi guys, just got a Kawasaki ninja 250 and was wondering what kind of fe gains have people gotten with reducing oil viscosity in their bikes??? I'm thinking of using amsoil 0w-20/30 with Lucas oil mixed in, I've had good success doing this in my cars with no issue!! What do you guys think??

Using non-motorcycle oil you'll gain clutch chatter and poor shifting. Based on how light that bike is, you're better off learning a better riding technique than increasing wear on your trans.

The problem comes from the engine and transmission sharing the same oil, so the oil is 'worked' harder than just oil used in an engine alone.

I am not saying you could not possibly get better FE from a change in viscosity, but you would have to monitor how much the engine and transmission are handling the change.

There is lots of research you could probably do, knowing that...

It said in the owners manual that my bike could use 10w-30, but I'll double check a few times before changing the oil!!!

Generally what I'm doing is taking the lower viscosity oil and adding Lucas to give it extra adhesion to the metal parts of the motor and clutch!! Like I said, I've been doing that in my Jeep Grand Cherokee for years with no increase in wear as far as the filters concerned!!

Get a lubricheck.
And always follow manufacturer lubricant specs.

Thanks a lot!! I was wondering how to check lubricity!!

The lubricheck checks TBN which is oil acidity.
Easy way to see if the additives that prevent a sluge build up and clean the engine are still working.

Ah, I see!

Rotella T6 5W-40 is on the thinner side of 40-grade, and does shear down close to a high 30-grade rather quickly.

Rotella T5 10W-30 semi-synthetic would also be a good choice if you wanted a cycle-safe 30.

My son run a 30 in his Ninja 250, and it spends most of it's time near redline.

That said, I don't think you are going to see any noticeable gains in performance or economy by going to a 30, but I think it's OK as long as you use a good one and keep track of the level. Ninja 250s will lose some oil into the airbox from the crankcase breather when running at high rpms.

I personally don't like oil additives, so I would skip that.

Check out these Ninja 250 sites if you haven't already -

Ninja250 Riders Club :: Index

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/

I'm currently running 10W40 Castrol-brand, semi-synthetic and getting better mpg in warm weather than I got when I had 10W30 Amsoil, full synthetic in it. But one thing has changed that seems to have a much greater effect than oil viscosity and that's a different brand of tires; going from Bridgestone Battlax's to Michelin P4s; the latter creates a more optimistic trip meter error, but even after accounting for that error, I'm getting one or two more mpg for commutes and at least two better for trips.

My fantastic mpg numbers in a mid-size parallel twin has me excited, and I'd like to take it further to see the potential of this bike while maintaining practicality and maintaining a basic stock-ness to the bike, but I'm extremely limited on resources and have a limited skill set for constructing things even if I can figure out what to construct. But I'm thinking that if I could produce and mount a proper tail, it would not only make my current bike more fuel frugal, but would also make it more usable...That is, except for regular chain maintenance via a rear wheel lift.

I'm thinking that oil is one of those finishing touches adjustments that can help but somewhat limited, and that anyone looking to hypermile or increase mpg of a motorcycle should look at things like tires, riding style, windshield placement and mount, helmet and riding gear, placement and use of accessories or lack thereof, and adding a tail that can reduce drag w/o drastically impairing stability, which is not an easy thing according to the article linked below.

Tony Foale Designs, article on motorcycle aerodynamics.

Typically, that would not be the case.

Thinner oils will usually give better mileage. An oil with a low "W" rating usually helps also, because the oil is thinner during the time it takes to reach its full high temp rating. That amount of time can be significant, so the thinner oil can show improvements. Synthetic oils typically flow better at all temps than conventional oils and give better mileage.

A 5W-30 synthetic cycle oil should give you better mileage than a 10W-40 or a even a 10W-30 of any type.

One thing I found with my summers long lubericheck tests is that air cooled engines with out oil filters were the worst as far as quickly degrading oil.
With in a few tanks of fuel the oil in the engines goes black, then 10 to 15 more tanks later the oil starts to turn to kind of a brownish color. Brownish oil tested as "very bad".
Now these were only honda GC160 engines on a pressure washer.
I'm sure they burned less than 5 gallons of gasoline before their oil was trashed.

I think what you are seeing is the effects of "blow-by" in the engine. The rings are worn, and combustion gasses are being blown into the crankcase - contaminating the oil.

I have numerous small air-cooled engines, and they run a full season (used weekly) without much change in oil color.

One of my cars does have a similar issue. The oil does get dark rapidly, unlike the others. I attribute that to poor ring sealing when brand new. When I got the vehicle it had a few hundred miles on it, and even though I intentionally loaded the engine to seat the rings they did not seat well. I speculate that's from extended idling when delivered to the dealer. The day we first saw the vehicle it had been idling for some time, and I'm sure it wasn't the first time. Engines need load to seat the rings, and this engine did not get it until it was too late.

These little Honda GX160 engines were being used as air craft support equipment washing air craft and when they weren't washing air craft they were being used to wash the other pieces of support equipment. I am surprised the GC as in their "home owner line" stood up to that much constant use and abuse. They were getting used at least once a day.

You're misunderstanding the point of my post...I'm not trying to claim that the Castrol semi-synthetic 40 weight oil from Cycle Gear is responsible for my higher mpg versus 10W30 Amsoil MCTQC-EA full synthetic, the latter of which should be one of the best with regards to mpg that is approved for my bike and I won't risk going beyond what is recommended partly because I'm not that engine smart. What I'm suggesting is that a tire change made such a huge positive impact, that my mpg went up in spite of the higher-viscosity engine oil change.

My point is that for me, oil viscosity changes would be one of those fine tuning changes to eek out slight increases that would be one of the last things I'd look at for mpg maximizing versus other, bigger things that can be done for great mpg; especially on mc's that are often like a brick trying to cut through the air. For instance, if someone is riding a stock bike with a huge, almost 90 degree windshield added, with a typical top box and/or saddle bags or boxes for luggage, then making an oil viscosity change may help, but there are things to do first that will drwarf those engine oil changes. My focus on a bike, if I were a hypermiler and/or an ecommoder would be doing things that lower drag and/or weight and/or gearing changes and after a lot of trial and error and thinking about making my bike slide through the air with less engine load and/or RPM while still being a very useful, stable, and safe bike, then I'd look at lowering viscosity as long as it's not going to hurt the power train to do so.

What I've done is to turn my commuter bike with a pillion seat into a solo rider by placing a rectangular box on the pillion portion of the seat long ways where my lower back is in contact with the front of the box, which I'm sure lowers the turbulence as compared to stock and definitely as compared to a sideways turned box that usually either have a big gap between the rider and the box or big boxes sticking out on the sides catching extra wind. I've chosen a windshield with care and gave much thought as to how it may affect drag, and I chose some tires by accident that produce superior mpg to stock. A gearing change would be my next "look at", but I'm already running only 3250 at 60 mph with stock gearing, so I've got to do some thinking about how that may change my shift patterns in the limited mph areas 30-45 mph. Another example of increasing, significantly, mpg on a motorcycle: I've got an extremely small noggin. Most X-small helmets still have huge shells and the only change is more padding inside. So I researched and found a very low profile helmet that is much, much smaller. Not only is it a much smaller object to catch wind towards the top of the profile, but I can see much better around me making active safety much better. And for the record, I had the same model helmet when I laid it over, and it did save my noggin, so it's a relatively safe helmet from a passive standpoint as well, even though I'd prefer a full-face, but my noggin size makes those choices limited for decent peripheral vision and to prevent unnecessary neck strain that most of those watermelon helmets cause.

10W30 motor oil is your standard oil.
5W40 or 5W30 (or 5W20) have friction modifiers in them, that will cause clutch slip (for a wet clutch), and wear out the gearbox much faster.

For reference, a Kawasaki gearbox really needs 80W120, while it's engine probably runs best with 0W20-5W30.
I would recommend sticking with Honda GN4.
I personally mix it with 10-15% 10W30 car oil. No biggie. Works wonders.

If you like GN4, you should try Rotella T5 10W-30 synthetic blend. It's a much better oil based on UOA tests, and doesn't have modifiers.

Standard automotive 10W-30 may have modifiers, you would have to check the API "Donut" for "Energy Conserving" at the bottom. If it says that, it's got modifiers.

Most 10W30 car oil does not have modifiers.
Thinner or thicker oil does.

I don't believe that is correct.

Here's a photo of the back panel of Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils. Both say "Energy Conserving" at the bottom of the API "donut" - so they both have modifiers.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...psifhszbjf.jpg

This is the API legend -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...pscfbk6hbi.gif

All oils in the 40-grade range (5W-40, 10W-40, etc) do not have modifiers.

But that's not the real reason not to use auto oils. The real reason is the lack of adequate levels of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus) that are required to protect the valve train in most cycle engines. Current auto oils have reduced levels of ZDDP in order to extend the life of the emissions catalyst - which is only adequate if the engine has roller valve trains.

Almost all cycle engines do not.

The answer for cycle engines are diesel oils like Rotella. They are generally a heavy duty base stock and have the higher levels of ZDDP that a cycle engines needs. No reason not to use them.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Photos/img53.jpg

The following is extracted directly from my owner's manual concerning oil specification*:

"API Service Classification SG or higher except oils labeled as energy conserving or resource conserving on the circular API service label, SAE 10W30, JASO T 903 standard MA, Pro Honda GN4 4-stroke oil (USA & Canada) or Honda 4-stroke oil, or an equivalent motorcycle oil."

So it's all a little confusing to me. I totally get that there are different organizations in different areas of the world; European, Japanese, and North American that have different classification systems. The North American system is API and that's where we get the requirement for at least SG and not having "energy conserving" or "resource conserving" on the label and any engine oil at or above this level is approved. The Japanese classification JASO is where the JASO T 903 MA comes from. And the European standard ACEA but that spec is not addressed in my manual, but it is the two other classifications beyond API that make me not want to use an engine oil designed specifically for meeting clean diesel specs.

Issue 1: It looks like to me, that even though API is fine with Rotella T5 10W30 for my bike (SM and no energy conserving or resource conserving on the label), as far as I can tell, both ACEA E9 and JASO DH-2 approval level does not approve this oil for my bike, as those are both commercial, heavy-duty engine specs only and do not address suitability for a motorcycle dual lubing necessity.

The second thing that would bother me personally using a high-quality diesel oil is that there is a lot of engineering work and time that went in to developing this oil specifically for it to do a good job protecting a diesel engine and the environment from modern, high pressure, compression-ignition combustion and engine-out exhaust, e.g., its ability to absorb high amounts of soot, fuel dumping into the oil, compatibility with DPFs, etc. I'd be leaning towards the idea that a very good engine oil for compression ignition is not necessarily the best choice for a motorcycle or even a gas-powered car no matter the quality level of the oil for a compression-ignition engine.

I'm not trying to debate or prove a point. I don't know. The T5 advocate likely knows much more than me. I just don't have enough understanding personally to feel confident using anything but an mc-specfic oil and I look for the MA JASO spec and at least SG and either 10W30 or 10W40. My MC is not very oil picky and it is somewhat low revving and I don't run it hard, so it probably wouldn't make much difference as long as it shifted okay, but to be on the safe side, I'm sticking with what I understand about the labels.

* My manual specifies the same engine oil for the standard shift and the DCT automatic version, even though the DCT actually has transmission fluid as a separate lubricant.

There's nothing in (or left out of) a diesel oil that makes it unsuitable for use in a cycle engine - unlike current auto oils. If you are fine adding standard auto oil to your cycle engine you would be way ahead using a diesel oil.

Rotella T6 has been certified JASO-MA, and according to the Shell Tech Rep I spoke with, all Rotella multigrade oils have the same additive package. Shell decided not to take all of its Rotella multigrade oils through the certification process. If that's true, T5 should have the equivalent rating. The real issue is friction modifiers (moly) - which diesel oils don't have. They do have safe levels of ZDDP though - unlike current auto oils.

Don't take my word for it, do some checking around as to the suitability of Rotella oils in cycle engines.

Generally speaking, 10W30 oil is very similar to regular dino oil.
Any lower first number usually has friction modifiers, mostly synthetic oil found in popular semi synthetic oils sold in the store.
The number after the W, if it's higher than 30, it's usually poly type of chains added to the oil making it thicker, and handle higher heat better. Very few W40 and W50 oils are actual heavy oils without modifiers.
Synthetic oils sometimes give problems with wet clutches.

What I talked about here is just the viscosity and lubrication.
I'm not speaking of additives that serve other purposes, like protect against corrosion, or trapping CO2 gasses and stuff like that.

Then you need to make sure you're using the right terms. "Friction modifiers" are the chemicals that make the oil extra-slippery which allegedly (I don't ride motorcycles) cause trouble for wet clutches. "Viscosity index improvers" and "pour point depressants" are the ones that allow better flow in cold weather while not thinning too much at operating temperatures -- stretching the numbers on either side of the "W".

You seem to be conflating all of those into one group and they aren't the same thing.

There's really no need to get super technical. Staying with the recommended oil grade (30, 40) is always safe, as is using a motorcycle-specific oil.

If you deviate from that, you need to be careful. Research what makes an oil safe and what makes it not suitable for use in a cycle engine. The 2 main issues are additives - "Friction Modifiers" (Moly) and ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus). The issue with Friction Modifiers is the possibility of clutch slippage. The issue with a lack of adequate ZDDP is damage to the cams, rockers, and high pressure contact surfaces. If you are not comfortable with the differences, stick with manufacturer's recommendation to the letter.

The reason to use a non-motorcycle-specific oil is mostly cost, but also availability. Diesel oils like Rotella and Delvac are significantly less expensive and easier to find.

I've been using Shell Rotella multigrade oils in many of my cycles for years, and have determined through significant research that it's a safe choice.

But if you don't want to trust what someone says on the Internet, I won't hold it against you...

Like said,
I use Honda GN4 (motorcycle oil) for my bike, and mix it with 10W30, and never experienced clutch slippage; though using 10W30 by itself there is some clutch slippage.

But at a ratio of 10-25% of 10W30 it doesn't damage the bike at all, and no clutch slippage, even under heavy load for prolonged riding, at the HP peak (GN4 is too thick, at W40, I find,that's why I add W30).
Besides, small engines at lower than 500cc do pretty fine with the lighter oils, as they don't really get hot.

I don't know if it makes any difference in gas mileage, but it does not damage the engine.

I'm just mentioning an option that works for me, and undoubtedly increases gas mileage by a few cents.

When I think of friction modifiers, I do mean that which decreases friction and increases mpg.

In India they ride motorcycles using vegetable oil as engine oil, just fine, for tens of thousands of miles. Vegetable oil has none of those additives an engine supposed to 'need'.

You know they make GN4 in 10W-30 - right?

Use what you think works, but by all accounts I've seen, Rotella T5 10W-30 synthetic blend is far superior to GN4 in every way.

There are plenty of under-500cc engines that get real hot - it all depends on the conditions of use.

Just because engines run with poor or wrong oil, doesn't mean they are "OK" internally. Performance and life span will suffer. No question.