Parents want to buy sister an SUV
 

My sister is getting her license soon and long story short.... she is not a good driver. She wants an suv. Parents want to get her an suv. They argue that it's safer (big=safe, winter). My argument is that it's not safer (rolling etc) and that she'll cause much more damage if she wrecks than if she had a car. Obviously I think it's a huge waste of gas as well and their comeback is that she'll just drive to town and back. But even that will be a good gallon of gas a day since she usually goes back and forth twice.


Does anyone have links to any sort of anecdotal evidence or reports? Personal stories? Input?

-Zach

Let her buy it, but remember the phrase "I told you so."

Unfortunately it'll probably come to that. Which means, most likely, that someone will end up hurt.

Another reason it's probably not safer is an SUV is usually classified as a truck and therefore doesn't have to meet the same safety standards that cars do. Bigger AND safer (or at least comparable safety to a car) usually means minivan.

If she really wants an SUV,

Try: Keith Bradsher, HIGH AND MIGHTY: THE DANGEROUS RISE OF SUVS (2002). Excerpts on Google Books here:

High and mighty: the dangerous rise ... - Google Books

Or she can't afford gas.

...why an SUV?

...because they don't make full-size, land-barge, STATION WAGONS like they used to!

...there's "safety" in sheer mass...of course, there's also "inertia."

For many years the Mpls Star Tribune's auto columnist recommended parents buy their new driving age spawn SUVs at every opportunity. Of course I took him to task for that at every opportunity. After the $4 gas spell, I haven't seen him do that anymore. I guess there is hope that even fuelish people *sometimes* snap out of their stupor. :rolleyes:

This might have an effect: gloat that you drive for 9 cents/mile (or whatever it is) then say this pig SUV costs an average of 70 cents/mile (AAA has the real figures) and say gee, when she goes 100 miles I can go 800 miles for the same money!!!

mhmitszach -

What's wrong with a nice trusty family-size sedan, aka a Camry/Malibu/Accord/Altima/Charger/Taurus? If she needs 4WD, then a (non-Forester) Subaru would work. Here are some (old) arguments in your favor :

Safety Gap Grows Wider Between S.U.V.'s and Cars - NYTimes.com
frontline: rollover: before you buy an suv... | PBS
New Study: SUVs Riskier to Children Than Minivans, Large and Mid-Sized Cars
Americans for Fuel Efficient Cars
SUV Rollover Attorney | Lawyer: Leading Website, Free SUV Case Review

CarloSW2

If they refuse to buy a non SUV then what about a smallish one like the Ford Escape.

There was an artical a while back comparing the number of people killed per 10,000 vehicles of a type on the road and the ford explorer killed around 110 people per 10,000 on the road and the Honda Civic killed around 15.
You can't see as well out of an SUV so you are more likely to run in to things and people, 4 wheel drive tends to get you in more trouble as it makes you feel invincible while driving up to that point that you roll over in to the ditch and die, if the roads are bad enough to need 4 wheel drive then you should stay home! 4 wheel drive is a crutch for bad drivers.

here is a valuable piece of info to use throughout your personal life and professional life.

talk is cheap, polls can be misleading, they will only listen if they want to.
say nothing, ignore it, when you move out, SHOW them how your way is better.

Oh I don't know about that...

Consider this: Your sister is a bad driver. Driving the SUV will make her feel safe (despite the fact that this safety is an illusion - see above), therefore she's likely to drive carelessly. Driving a smaller car will make her feel unsafe, so she'll probably drive more cautiously.

I can't help but be reminded of my neighbors' granddaughter. Her dad (parents were divorced) bought her a small car (Dodge Neon, IIRC) when she got her license. Mom & g'parents would nag about how she wasn't safe in that little thing, so a couple of years later, they bought her a biggish SUV as a graduation present. Couple of months later, she rolled it, killing herself and her boyfriend.

Out of morbid curiosity once, I set up a google news search to look for documents with the terms "SUV" "Rollover" and "Accident" in them.

It's rare for it to go more than a few days without it finding a story that has the word "fatal" in it.

Meet at the crossroads: the CUV, the SUV body on a car frame. Bit better MPG, larger vehicle, yet low-ish COG, so less likely for rollover. If they can, try to get a newer CUV, or brand-new Equinox, with 32 MPG HWY. Maybe try to convince them to get a large car, like something similar to a Ford Freestyle, or Ford Five-Hundred. Not horrid fuel economy, but better than SUV fuel economy. Or if they're bent on getting that SUV, convince them to get her an Escape hyrbid.

I think the fuel economy from an Escape Hybrid is great, but most of the reviews I've read always indicate that it still has the handling disadvantages of a usual SUV: poor braking performance and handing -- exacerbated by the extra weight of the batteries. (I suspect handling/braking will be worse in the hybrid than the regular internal combustion engine Escape because of that extra weight, so if safety is the ultimate goal, might as well just forego the hybrid.)

I kind of think the Escape Hybrid is for people who think SUVs are generally good personal vehicles, or who actually need a large vehicle to haul things/people, but hate the horrible fuel economy.

(DISCLAIMER: I have not personally driven a Ford Escape Hybrid yet; I have driven a regular Escape, though, and wasn't too impressed with its handling characteristics.)

Agree that a true car-style crossover like the Nissan Rogue would be better all around. Car-like handling and even car-like fuel economy (24 MPG combined.)

Wait! your parents are buying this vehicle for her? who does that? selling your kid your old vehicle when you buy a new one is one thing, or even giving them your old vehicle but buying another vehicle for your kid who is just learning how to drive? I bet this vehicle, no matter what it is, is totaled within a year.
SUV's only feels safer, it ends there.

You'd be surprised. It's a different world out there, where a lot of parents these days (though not nearly as many as there were a couple of years ago) will buy their teenage kids cars that're more expensive than what I'd think of buying for myself - and I'm not poor.

I'm only 28 and non of my friends had their parents buy them a car, mine would let me barrow their vehicles if I asked first and filled it up with gas when I was done, of course when I got my license my parents wouldn't even co-sign my insurance as it would make their insurance go up! as I see it it was all part of good parenting.

Hello -

Back in the 1980's, my Dad offered to buy me a new car or an Apple computer. I was a sullen-teen, so I said niether. I wish I had said "1st gen CRX!!!!!!!!". He bought the computer.

CarloSW2

Nice Dad! :thumbup:

It's going to be $1500 or less. They gave me their old suv, I drove it for like a year. Sold it for $2000 and bought my escort. So they're trying to be fair and buy her a car of around the same value.

They seem to have found a 96 explorer with 68k miles, no rust, all features and they think they can get it for really cheap or barter. I can't argue with that.

A 96 Explorer is not an appropriate car for a new driver, or for anyone else for that matter.

They should get that Exploder, sell it to some other moron who enjoys having fuel tanks explode or tires randomly deflate, and buy a REAL vehicle.

SUV is a mistake, plain and simple. I get in my Father's Blazer (second vehicle) and I'm horrified by the lack of control that even I can feel in it. The vehicle is muted in every way possible, and rocks wildly through curves. Control? Nah... Not even close.

You want control, you should have driven my Civic, or my first Miata, or any of a fistful of other cars I've had that all handled like they were on rails compared to any other, larger, "safer" car on the road.

There's still the argument that less mass is safer because it's physically less likely to be in an accident altogether, as well...

Quicker steering, braking, throttle response and acceleration, better maneuverability, and the ability to make abrupt movements and have the response from the vehicle. None of those things will be found in an SUV.

I do have good things to say about some of the Chrysler minivans I've driven, though. I'd have been completely comfortable auto-x'ing my Caravan, for instance, and they can be had for a pittance compared to most SUV's.

Regarding 4x4 vehicles - I semi-agree that for most people, it's a status symbol, a crutch for lack of operational skill, etc. There are times when it's just nice to have, though. I use it in my truck when I go down into my Father's yard to drop off or retrieve a load of scrap metal. I could probably get down in there and back out w/o 4x4, but why tear up the yard first?

I do feel that many people think that AWD and 4x4 will make them safer in inclement weather, though. The fact is, 4x4 is for GOING, not STOPPING. Once you lose traction going, the other wheels help you go... if you lose traction stopping, the other wheels aren't going to kick in and help you stop!

Why else would it be called FOUR WHEEL DRIVE?

By the way, do NOT force the issue with your parents. It's not going to get you anywhere.

Present the evidence to your sister, who should be the one choosing her first vehicle (within reason). If your parents are convinced that she's safer in an SUV, and won't let her choose anything short of that, then it's likely that your parents are more interested in vanity and what others think than they are in how happy or comfortable their daughter will be with her first vehicle.

This is in the price range.

Be plenty safe :p

http://i.ebayimg.com/21/!BqZ0)9w!2k~...eBE0!~~_35.JPG

Seriously though. Not all SUVs are created equal. My mom has a Subaru Forester. It's a great vehicle and she gets 27 in the city and 32 highway.

I think the issue should be forced. If they insist on an SUV, get a CRV or something. A '96 Exploder is just about the worst year of the one of the most unsafe SUVs ever made. Might as well buy her a Pinto and take off the rear bumper. Or a Sidekick and lift it 6 inches.

I don't think Exploders are any more dangerous than anything else- certainly not as far as gas tanks and tires are concerned. Yup, I'd also roll a Pinto w/o a rear bumper. No problem! :thumbup:

I also agree that it is better to have a small, light, agile vehicle and avoid the collision in the first place. HOWEVER, that is predicated by the need to have a driver who's head isn't up their asss. If piling into something else is inevitable, perhaps it is a good thing to surround oneself with more mass. I mean, good for the perpetrator of the "accident"- not anyone else.

Not defending SUVs though.

Well, that's the point of my comments and others, I think. Assuming SUVs ARE indeed safer for its occupants, you're just transferring the cost of your bad driving onto other people on the road. Not exactly the best way to encourage someone to learn how to drive, nor a good rule for society.

But the truth is, whatever advantage SUVs may have in two vehicle accidents is negated by the possible injuries suffered in one-vehicle or two-vehicle accidents from rollovers. The studies I've seen (especially from the HIGH AND MIGHTY book I referenced earlier,) don't indicate any overall increase in occupant safety from driving an SUV.

Sure, you could rollover any car in the right circumstances. Easier to do it in an SUV, though. Give me a small car with a sturdy suspension and good brakes any day of the week.

Maybe you could present the articles of the lack of safety in an SUV to your sister and let her know you care about her, and her longevity. Show her the fueleconomy(dot)gov website showing how much fuel mileage she'll get. Try to show her she'd be better off in a sedan than a truck. Then, pray for her.

Lazarus -

I agree that the Forester is "more than equal". I think it has a lower center-of-gravity (COG) than other SUVs.

Too bad Suby won't break down and offer a non-AWD for the US market.

CarloSW2

I was going to suggest a large car like a Crown Vic. Lots of metal, still decent mileage, and a friend recently picked up a seriously pristine one at a police auction (must've been from a detective or supervisor.)

Unfortunately, it's large enough that it's difficult for a new driver to judge maneuvers and parking--problems that an Explorer will have as well.

The best car drivers I know have also survived the motorcycle learning curve. Big cars don't put you in touch with the road or other drivers/obstacles, and they suck gass.

I've always thought of the idea of making people ride a bicycle for a year, and then a motorcycle for a year before getting an automobile license. It would certainly make them more aware and understanding of other vehicles on the road.

I have seen enough suv's roll over that I would never want one. I have a 1996 Olds 88 and a 1991 F-250 and they are both extremely maneuverable and safe. I can back up and parallel park both of them without the slightest problem. They also stop on a dime.

Wow, I know I could not say a f-250 is "extremely maneuverable" with a straight face :)

45 foot turning radius, 3700 lbs, 73 inches tall and 79 wide is not on the extreme end of maneuverability in the spectrum of consumer road vehicles though, at least not on the end I would want to be on usually ;)

Eh, every F-series I've owned actually felt pretty stable on the road when it came down to it, and had enough ground clearance and suspension travel to comfortably get into and out of job sites.

I'm not saying it handles like a sports car, but compared to several SUV's of the same size/weight, it certainly feels like one.

Right now, my F150 suffers from a loose steering box, which I've yet to get around to tightening (Not dangerously loose, just outside of spec).

My F150 has nice ride quality and compared to the newer, bigger F150s it actually seems svelte... but quick (as opposed to fast) it is not.

I agree, my experience always was if you could get stuck with a rear 2wd you would also get stuck in 4wd, only difference was one tire in front would spin in addition to your one tire in back. Only reason to have 4 wd is if you also have posi's and plan on going off pavement, never had a situation on snow and ice where 4wd would help (maybe hurt actually because I would end up in the situation faster)

And in fact I would argue my 1982 2wd positive traction diesel suburban was better than the 4wd variety, in fact I did pull my uncles suburban out of the mud in michigan with it.

I think people have lost the concept of being prepared with a small spade, air pump some salt and sand in the back of their car during adverse weather.

Oh and I have never been stuck in over 1 million miles and I have never owned a 4wd. Almost always rear 2wds with the occasional Front WD.

I strongly believe being trained on glare ice w/ rwd (my drivers training) helped me be a lifelong better driver.

Also add to the fact that 4wd tends to fail in horrifying ways that cause accidents. One of my coworkers had a mid 90's blazer that started randomly shifting to 4w low (electronic shift) he brought it in 3 times to be fixed last time it "seemed" to be fixed and he went up on the highway and totalled it when it dropped to 4w low at 75mph. I am afraid I have to say that isn't the only one, anyone who has owned 4wd for any length of time usually has had to make some sort of overpriced repair because of it, especially if they actually use it. My uncle is one of those who always owned 4wd's and he certainly has had to pay for it repeatedly in the form of bills.

Good Reason to leave the overpriced 4wd hobby to off roaders.

Oh and if they MUST have an SUV, get her a 6.2ltr diesel vehicle, preferably a 2wd 1992+ model or an emission controlled model. They are dogs so she can't speed too much, they get 20mpg without trying (only 2wd) and can actually be usefull if you need to move furniture, trailers, etc. They also can be setup to get close to 30mpg with a manual transmission.

Cheers
Ryan