PCV catch can install.
 

I put a catch can in my 93 Voyager today. I figured why not. I went with a cheap eBay model. While installing it I noticed how poorly my PCV system was setup. It amounted to a PCV valve on a 5-6 inch hose running strait down into the intake.

I replaced the valve, a bunch of hose and changed how the valve was mounted (instead of laying on it's side pointing down it now stands straight up)

I then added the catch can and a clear fuel filter after the can so I can see if it's working.

I must have fixed a vacuum leak in the process because my idle smoothed out. Either that or I was sucking a ton of junk into the intake.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2...ture001ya4.jpg

Cool, Id like to know how it ends up working out. Ive thought about making one of those.

I have a catch can on my Firebird. It has a strong tendency to suck oil out the PCV valve which runs straight into the intake manifold. This is especially important on that car since the engine has a CR of 10.4/1, and oil mixing in with the air fuel mixture will lower the octane level. I made mine out of an inline air compressor filter, some fuel line hose and some plumbing fittings.

Have you thought about putting some distilled water in it to see if you pick up some mpgs? If it vaporizes some water, it may help. Just don't add too much.

I'm not sure why I would want to draw water into my intake.

A Better Oil Trap?
 

I have using a PCV catch device for about 3 years or more and collect quite a bit of blowby gunk that hopefully keeps the system cleaner downstream, and can be recycled instead of burned into the atmosphere (every little bit helps).

http://pic100.picturetrail.com:80/VO.../129855730.jpg

The PCV Catch Device when new: adapted from an air-compressor moisture filter

Recently, I emptied the container and clumsily broke-off the PCV Valve connection. :( So, I realized that I need a bigger container, with a more stable seal (heat destroyed the rubber seal pretty quickly after installation, so tightening the plastic to the metal made for a difficult change-out). The valve at the bottom was originally intended to allow the container to drain, but clogged over time.

There are a couple of other DIY builds here that are excellent, but not transparent to quickly check the level. When I pop the hood, it's likely the first thing that catches my eye, but it needs an improvement (I plan to implement the device on our 3 cars since it seems to work quite well).

Any ideas for a larger version of the pictured item?

RH77

You can purchase larger catch cans, and mounting brackets and such to go with them, they are sold for performance applications. Here's some examples on Summit and Jegs:

Search Results for catch can - SummitRacing.com

catch+can - JEGS High Performance

I've been running the exact same filter you have on my Firebird for a few years now. I can't tell from your pic if you removed the white filter element inside the cylinder or not. Mine is still in but I have heard that it should be removed, I may do this at some point. I empty mine when it gets filled to the bottom of that filter element, which is about half full, and that happens in about 400 miles. Here's a pic of mine, I mounted it to the cowl in front of the brake booster:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...n/IM003487.jpg

Man, I really need to get two of these for my car... The motor has a tendency to throw oil out of both sides... and one of them blows into the intake pre-MAF. :eek:

If you're getting oil out the PCV inlet hose you can fix it with a breather filter, I also added that to my Firebird. On that car the inlet runs from the throttle body to the passenger side valve cover, and I added the breather filter right at the valve cover. The throttle body where that line connects used to get very oily, now it's nice and clean.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...n/IM003490.jpg

RH77 -

I have a glass jar version that is TBInstalled for my car. It's on the infinite TODO list.

CarloSW2

I took a look at the offerings, but they're not transparent, and look way too good :o I might try one on the TSX to keep it looking classy. I'll probably leave the Insight alone since it's still under warranty with free oil changes for a while -- I'm sure they would use it as an excuse to void something (kneejerk reaction from the EVO days -- they busted owners for Autocrossing at the time).

Clean install, by the way :thumbup: I removed the filter element as part of the design instruction -- I forget what it does. But yeah, mine gets fuller, faster, as time goes by. I'll admit, I installed it to see if it was a worthy mod as a "temporary" splice into the existing line. A few years later... :rolleyes:

Perfect! What is the design plan?

RH77

Something I've done on my 2002 Jetta TDI(ALH motor):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT2w-ejVE14


..

never will that engine "runaway"
 

When I was driving "BoB" as my daily, I fitted a catch can (home made) because of the amount of oil coming through the PCV.
I later fitted a basic water injection system (also home made) to clean carbon from the combustion chamber and rings.
It restored some of the power and fuel economy the engine had lost over the years (over a few weeks), it also stopped the engine dumping so much oil out the PCV.
I'd been draining 15 to 20 CCs from the catch can every couple of weeks. After the rings had freed up (I guess), I only got a few drops out of the catch can.

good , now switch back to
 

I'm actually not sending boost pressure directly to the crankcase. I bleed a VERY small metered amount of boost air from the lower intercooler downstream of the crankcase but upstream of the cyclonic separator. This bleed ensures that I have no significant amount of oil accumulation in the intercooler, and helps to aid the effectiveness of the cyclonic separator. I am getting a little more than 1 ounce per 10K miles.

The other benefit of the system is that it provides visual feedback of turbo oil seals and also the CCV oil throughput. The other benefit is that it helps reduce EGR valve clogging a small amount. I wouldn't swear to it, but my gut tells me I may have increased my mileage a small amount with the addition. I'm at 60 MPG in Florida city traffic for the last 4 tanks of 800 miles each tank-Plus it's darn cool!!

RH77 -

It's just a glass jar with a custom plastic thingy for hanging off the battery clamp. I got it from a fellow at saturnfans.com . I would mod it to have a rubber "donut" around the jar to protect it from risk of breaking from vibration.

I haven't installed it because it would disable my vacuum gauge.

CarloSW2

the cyclone valve is at crankcase pressure so ..
 

Not sure you caught just how small my bleed line is from the lower intercooler? It's 1/8" diameter, and about 6-8 feet long.

Not sure you caught the fact that my cyclone separator is not a stock component for my car and was added to aid in oil removal from the intake.

The bleed line is essentially a capillary tube. You cannot physically drive much volume through it(since it's so small in diamteter) at such low boost pressures. Let alone the fact that it is carrying small slugs of oil through it occasionally(Enough for 1.1 oz per 10K miles) which further reduces the volume it can move. It also enters the CCV system at the elbow on top of the valve cover in a way that will allow the VERY small amount of air that it bleeds to entrain additional crank case gasses essentially scavenging the crank case to a very small degree.

I understand your concerns regarding the PCV system, but I have a few follow-up questions, statements, and a respectful difference of opinion in some situations...

In the case of Josh8loop's TDI, it appears that a reasonable collection system was designed to remove a nominal amount of oil from the turbo bearing seal and then from the crankcase. If a pressure guage were to be applied to the capillary tube, I expect a very small reading of negligible, intermittent pressure. I would imagine that losing small amount of oil is typical for a turbo, with the speed, temperature, and pressure of the application? Also, turbochargers in consumer applications tend to fail at the 100K mile mark (on the average) without proper cooldown during the life of the component. Timed idling before shutdown (not advised for FE) or light driving before shutdown, has demonstrated a preservation approach to turbo longevity, as you probably know.

To demonstrate the amount of emissions from this system on a larger scale, take a look at a large, rear-engined tour bus. Since a closed PCV system is not required for large vehicle applications, a vent tube generally exhausts the vent directly into the atmosphere. If one looks underneath while the vehicle is at idle, the downward-pointed tube is often clearly visible, and vents quite a bit of contaminants. If left stationary and idle for a while, a greasy/oily spot can be seen on the pavement where this tube vents.

These vehicles are designed to run 100's of thousands of miles, and typically vent a considerable amount when relatively new. Would diesel engines have more blow-by due to the higher compression and a larger supply of oil? In our small, closed PCV systems, we simply want to condense and collect the discharge before it can potentially degrade downstream components or senselessly be burned and released into our air.

My personal goal (and likelly that of others) is to remove airborne pollutants, contaminants, and whatever blow-by occurs in normal engine operation -- and especially as engines accumulate more hours and inevitably wear out their piston rings. The system has existed for a reason (for decades), and can account for significant air quality issues if not maintained. For those strapped for cash, it can be an inexpensive addition to prevent costly and inefficient operation later.

Further, despite the closed nature of the sytem, I would expect condensation and warm-up evaporation to be a factor on cold starts and/or humid days, increasing the vapor amount.

I applaud Josh's collection of intercooler contaminants, through carefully constructing a relatively non-invasive setup. Whether or not the turbo is significantly leaking, collecting over 5 oz. of comtanimants over 50K miles establishes the "every little bit helps" rule, and thus far, has not been reported to be a detriment.

As for me, I plan to continue my usual maintenance routine, involving the use of high-quality oil / filter changes, Seafoam cleanse directly into the intake, and the catch can. So far, 50K miles later, it sill runs smoothly and efficiently at 160K total miles.

RH77

Those sealed ebay catch cans have no internal filter or baffels, I wouldn't run a sealed catch can..
Make your own or pony up for a properly filtered baffeled catch can..

That silver one is the spitting image of the one I had, when I installed it, I cleaned everything and used all new hose, in 2 months time, I had to do plugs and when removing it, I saw there was oil moisture in the out hose of the catch can..

I swabbed it with a q-tip and it wasn't good.
I read how the oil is pretty much vaporized within the system..
So filteration is the key..

My catch can was mounted lower than the pvc, intake ports, nothing was able to run "downstream"

I have vehicles with 160k and more on them too, and they all lack catch cans. The logic of preventing pollutants with one of these eludes me. We are talking about water, blow-by, and crankcase oil vapors that, in a normal pcv system, are then routed to the combustion chambers for incineration AND after-treatment. Has anyone ever stopped to consider they are CREATING more condensate by virtue of slowing down the flow of untreated vapors in a cool, low-flow container?

I can see the logic of having catch-cans in some racing applications but for the street I think they are ricer junk.

good
 

There isn't an engine out there that doesn't emit oil from the pvc system to some extent..
I've built plenty of engines to know that an oil catch can is a decent mod..

I built an engine and ran it for around 20k till I decided to pull the head and use some arp head studs, no other changes.. There was a small amount of carbon buildupon the pistons..

I cleaned them off, prepped the deck, and finished the install..
While I was waiting for suspension parts, I made a catch can after reading something on a solo2 site.. It didn't seem like a bad idea and it couldn't hurt anything..

Once it was buttoned up, I did a cold and hot compression test and all was consistant..

I ran the engine for about 40k this way before I did a cam swap (sohc) I messed up and dropped a valve so I pulled the head and the pistons looked great, next to no buildup with twice the mileage...

It could be the engine wasn't broken in completley, donno..
I file fitted the rings when I built it and even today with 110k on it after doing a cometic hg swap, it looks great today.

If your freugal on your setup, thats fine, diy faq's are out there and it can cost you next to nothing to do..

I know all about Bob and his studies, makes for some great reading imho..

I run a catch can, could care less on what it looks like and don't pop the hood to show anyone anything because I don't care..

I got results, yours may vary, believe the hype or go the other way with it, makes me no difference :)

Thanks for the kind words. This system I have adapted is similar to what the LandRover Diesel guys have installed as factory equipment on their vehicles with one exception. I added the lower IC bleed to somewhat passively address the lower IC buildup of oil which is perfectly normal for these vehicles. So the technology is not new, and I cannot take credit for it-I've just massaged it to meet my needs on this particular vehicle.

I'm not sure exactly what the comparison would be from an equivalent displacement of a gasoline engine and a diesel engine in terms of CCV flow. My guess would be that the diesel(due to higher compression) would have more. I know that if the diesel engine is equipped with a mechanical vacuum pump which vents into the crankcase then that does increase total CCV flow.

As you mention condensation can become an issue and to prevent that my design goal was to use short direct runs of piping to keep the CCV gasses hot so I don't drop out the water vapor and leave it in vapor form. I live in Florida, so I have more flexibility in this aspect. Others that are in the colder climates would want to keep things short, direct, insulated, and close to engine heat radiating components(just like BMW did on the X5 engine with this separator) to ensure little or no water vapor condensation happens.


I also use high quality oils to help keep the engine component life maximized, especially since I am running my "Hybrid" 205 Deg F thermostat. My car was designed for 195 F operation, and so I had to fabricate my own thermostat for it. So far 3-4 MPG increase from the higher temps, and from recent lower and upper end inspection no adverse effects have been noted.

Well said! If people don't like it (or their research shows otherwise), they don't have to have one. As for me, it seems like an easy decision to have one, and it doesn't look fancy in the least.

It's clear that you have done your homework with other designs and adapted them to your own application. This is exactly what EcoModding is about: Research, Implementation, and Reporting.

I have a warmer thermostat as well. Over the course of ~80K miles with the mod, I haven't observed any ill-effects either. With higher intake temps and advanced timing (and perhaps, in addition to the hotter coolant), the use of premium fuel has been needed to eliminate detonation.

With ambient temps that range from -5 to 105F, the extra 10-degrees help in the colder months (especially with an efficient cooling system -- a radiator block is very much needed this time of year as well). Otherwise, the car is aging well, but needs some extra maintenance to keep things running efficiently, like any older vehicle.

My main concern has been with the (still original) automatic transmission experiencing higher temps. As a result, I did invest in a fully synthetic fluid flush/replace. Even with it hacked to shift the torque converter manually, it still has a firm shift with no excessive slippage or shudder (knock on wood).

Best of luck with your mods and research -- I look forward to any results to share :thumbup:

RH77

Not to threadjack but if you are running a warmer thermostat you would probably be well advised to add a transmission cooler (maybe you already did?). Since the trans fluid shares the radiator with the now warmer coolant it is most likely actually being warmed by passing through there. I would bypass the cooler in the radiator and run an external cooler, and put it somewhere where it will get good airflow.

Little of topic as mentioned, but I was thinking the same thing in regards to tranny temps. When I first experimented with higher temps and had my automatic I wasn't too concerned since I was planning on a manual swap soon anyway. I am sure he is well aware of the potential issue, and is looking for ways to combat ill effects.


..

SULEV means 1 lb HC emissions per 100k miles
 

Well said! If people don't like it (or their research shows otherwise), they don't have to have one. As for me, it seems like an easy decision to have one, and it doesn't look fancy in the least.

not well said at all
new cars that meet SULEV emissions for HC Hydro Carbon emit less than 1 lb of HC per 100k miles
your tampering substantially increases your system's HC emissions way beyond that and
provides zero benefit to you

a loose loose modification

the goal here is
improvement of fuel economy without increasing emissions

the goal is not

increasing emissions and reduction of fuel economy ,
which is what your modification does

Perhaps you should start your own forum where instead of modification and testing, you have a policy of non-tampering, and instead encourage folks to not mess with their vehicles and just take them in for dealer service to restore them back to factory spec.
Imagine how happy you would be then.

You could remain in a world where your members goals were exactly the same as your goals, instead of this horrific world where people are happy doing things differently.

First off you should be embarrassed for being such a know-it-all and bringing such negativity to a forum that should be friendly to posting individuals modifications and results. You have more info to add that might be helpful? fine. I'm sure no one minds that at all.

Second, you give advice in what seems like absolute commands. For instance saying that using a catch-can is bad, period. Perhaps you should offer to fund the engine rebuilds for those who read your post so that what you suggest isn't advocating false economy. If you take an extra minute to imagine, the production of engine replacement parts, engine tear-down and rebuilding, and the acquirement of the funds to do so is about infinitely worse for the environment than filtering out a small amount of contaminants from a PCV line. This is not to mention the fact that not everyone is obsessed with emissions levels and may only be interested in economy, convenience, efficiency, or reliability.

I really didn't want this to be so personal, but this kind of routine is getting very old. Seriously. It is very discouraging.
People posting there exploits here may not be 100% correct about everything every time, but I don't think verbally beating them down is much of a help.

You will no doubt try to defend or counter now. Personally I have no interest whatsoever. Have at it.

Apologies here for being off-topic, but yeah, the cooler is something I should look into. The synthetic fluid is merely a hopeful measure to prevent heat-related damage.

As a Moderator, yet participant in this discussion, I have to expand upon mwebb's and Olympiadis' comments. Whether or not I agree with Olympiadis' statements, the purpose of the forum is to freely exchange information using courtesy, and posts not be a catalyst for a shouting match. In this case, I simply ask mwebb to utilize more information and respect in discussions.

In response to the content, my project car is a '98 model that is way out of the league of even LEV, let alone SULEV. With it's simple design, I can't imagine (without significant information) that the mod is detrimental in any way. I see contaminants collected, and remove them. What more? :confused:

Without sparking a runaway back-and-forth argument, I challenge mwebb or any other person in disagreement to the "catch can", to respectfully cite specific examples of lost FE, increased emissions, and/or data from your own experiments. Simply stating that it "doesn't work", will not cut it here. Users here should know that we need clean data in opposition before your comments are taken seriously. As it stands now, you are in the "Control Group" with unmodified vehicles, and your comments (thus far) are ambiguous and lack validity.

RH77
Moderator

more information
 

Maybe I missed something in someone else's post, but my catch can was installed in the hose between the PCV and intake manifold, just below the carby.
The whole thing was under manifold vacuum, there was no "venting", there was nothing "expelled to atmosphere", it simply separated the heavier stuff from the lighter stuff before it reached the manifold. I then drained this heavier stuff off, when the engine was stopped.

The only down side I can see is that I may have been removing a bit of lubrication for the valve stems.

This is exactly how I imagined a person would want to hook it up too. Mine is hooked up in this fashion except it's a Cyclonic separator instead of the standard catch can. If you don't have the effluent air from the catch can going into the intake it's dumping HC overboard as mentioned-unless you have a superd high tech specially designed filtration setup.



..

Great information! Thanks for sharing. I am trying to figure out the magnitude of the pressure pulsations-I just see mV readings. Have any idea how high the pressure goes?


..

So where does the gook from the catch can end up?

Frank: Hopefully to the nearest collection area for proper disposal/recycling.

Mwebb: Yes on a newer engine its not necessary, and yes its a bandaid for a worn out engine.

Isn't it better to have a bandaid on a worn out engine than to just let it go?
Besides there is more in oil that can also foul the O2 sensor, and it can plug up the cat.

I'll take a bandaid over nothing.

Thanks for keeping this up. I had forgotten, I have a big blow by tube hanging down and dripping foulness now and then. I need to put a can on it as well. Whatever I do will hold enough to allow dumping at the oil change interval, while I am under the rig anyway.

But probably it goes in the regular garbage.

No, it goes in with the used oil from normal oil changes. I take it up to the local council recycling center when I have about 20 litres.