Petrol vs Diesel
 

I'm thinking of a change as I don't drive very far any more and Helga is more of a long distance/high speed machine - my last long trip ended quite quickly as I cruised behind a Bentley GT doing ~105-110.

And no, I can't use public transport or cycle for my everyday use. :(

I quite fancy one of the Citroen C1 / Toyota Aygo / Peugeot 107 series. All of these cars are similar except for some minor styling.

This is a C1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_20080417.jpg

There are two engines available, a 1.0 3cyl Petrol (from Toyota) and a 1.4 4cyl HDi (diesel) engine (Peugeot / Citroen). The Diesel is no longer sold in the UK but there are still a few low mileage Citroen C1 HDis around as they have only just stopped.

For comparison the stats for the Petrol are :

And the diesel

Throw into the mix the difference in price between Diesel and Petrol (roughly 2-5p a litre) then its hard to choose which one to go for - my current monthly mileage is about 400, with occasional long trips and mostly urban/suburban.

My natural preference is for the Diesel but the difference is quite small as these are identical cars with different engines. Some reviews say the Petrol engine (revvy) suits the car more than the Diesel which is restricted by the lack of an intercooller and a low pressure turbo (it's more or less there for emissions I think).

In terms of the cars there is little to choose but the Citroen seems the best value (as in you get more stuff for your £s), the Toyota seems the nicest looking and the Peugeot is kind of ignored but some nice ones turn up. None of them have great long-term, high-mileage longevity but my mileage is low and I have minor spannering abilities. The great thing about looking at a used one is that the lose value very quickly :D

So what is the forum's thoughts ?

Diesel.

Diesel. If gas gets scares you can burn most oils in a diesel.

Diesel, same as he just said ^^^ bio-diesel is also much closer to being mass produced compared to any other non-food source bio-fuel

Diesel is worse for the environment, given the cost why?
If you don't drive far ofte, get or build an EV or plug-in hybrid, don't burn any fuel for short trips.

I'm won't be buying a PSA diesel anymore - or anything from PSA for that matter.

Despite having bought diesels since 1994, and living in a diesel country, I most likely won't be buying a diesel car anymore.

Especially when you're not doing many miles, diesel is not the best choice.

There are small petrol cars with equally low fuel consumption, lower NOx and particulate emissions, and a lot less cost (maintenance) and problems associated with diesels.
If you pick the right petrol car, it can even be converted to LPG or even CNG.

Thats kind of where I am undecided. The Diesel will take more time to warm and the taxes here are changing to take into account NOX.

Still pondering.

does Europe not offer b100?

You can make your own but I haven't seen a pump with B100. All Diesel here is 5% Biodiesel. Not sure if the HDi is Biodiesel friendly.

As much as I hate gasoline (petrol), with short trips I'd have to recommend it. Especially since you seem to be limited in biodiesel options. I'm very surprised the petrol gets mileage almost as good as the diesel.

Ditto. Do you have a website to compare ACTUAL user data vs just the government testing? That might show more accurate real world data.

I would love to find some real-world comparison data to use. I know from experience of UK official MPG that Diesels tend to get closer to the official figures in the real world and petrols struggle, even hybrids.

Perusing owners forums and owners reviews on places like Autotrader suggest Petrol owners struggle hard to get under 50 MPG averages. Diesel owners are thinner on the ground but some claim over 70.

If this car will be for short trips only, then go with petrol because of warm-up time.
Modern turbodiesels are so complicated, plus PSA doesn't allow more than 30% biodiesel.
A petrol is probably better suited for killing the engine.

I think the reason the petrol gets almost as good mpg's is weight: a diesel engine is usually heavier then a gasser of the same size, and here the HDi is 40% larger.

We don't usually have B100 (nor PPO) pumps either, though apparently you can buy it here and there from manufacturers.

B100 is widely available in Germany though.

Not when equipped with a DPF.

According to PSA, it's B30 max - and then only if you halve the oil changes interval.

Some of the latest small (i.e. Aygo sized) petrol cars get above 50 mpg (US) as well.

Obviously those are the official EU figures.
Matching those isn't going to be easy.

Real world numbers by searching here :
Advanced search - Spritmonitor.de

Plenty of Citroen C1 petrol owners beat the figures.
Aygo owners seem to have a harder time.

Thats my thoughts exactly. I need to get into a decent test drive to check out whether the hills issue is a killer for the Petrol. I don't mind going slower but I do mind having to stir pudding all the time. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the B100 info. You can buy it here too, 90p a litre compared to 136 for 5% at the pumps. But outlets are not convenient.

Aha. Looking at the most common figure for the C1 Petrol it comes out at 54, the Diesel at 65 (fewer figures though) which is a sizeable difference. Buying new that would take quite a few miles to make up the difference in price but there seems to be no Diesel premium on used and there are no new ones anyway.

Add a block heater and the warm up issue goes ?

More pondering.

On the other side Mrs A may be offered the possibility of a company Hybrid, Auris or Prius.

I as well prefer the diesel. One major issue is local availability. It is true that diesel trucks will be running even if the cars don't should there be a shortage of fuel, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to buy any. Considering the small MPG difference I'd buy whatever is more common (if it's a huge availability difference).

The best of them are getting very comparable fuel consumption.

It speeds upthe warming, but won't make it go away.
Can you plug it in when you're away from home ?
If not, that halves the benefit.

My 1.6D is only warmed up after around 6 miles.

£800 got a W plate Lupo 1.0 MPI petrol from the auctions I was at today..

Thats gotta be a WIN above any PSA rubbish? or they did a 1.4 diesel..

Europe doesn't have the state side issue of every station not having diesel since i believe majority of the cars there are diesel

I've been considering a small diesel as well - the Renault Clio 1.5 dci 65 seems quite attractive as it's posted at 65mpg and can be had used for not a lot of money at all. In its case, http://www.spritmonitor.de lists anything from 43mpg to 75, with an average of 58mpg, so I think that 60mpg would be a reasonable achievement in the real world without hypermiling or modifications.

I've only ever driven petrols up until now and so I have no idea if the extra mpg will be worth suffering the foibles of diesel engines. The 1.2 petrol (closest power output) is posted at 48mpg, making the diesel 35% more economical.

Have you driven a Lupo 1.0 ? Thats rubbish, right there...:eek:

There is a C1 Diesel 1.4 but its a non-intercoolled low pressure thing - 54 bhp. Thats about the same as a Citroen Ax NA 1.4 Rotary pump Diesel. But it has an ECU which is a wick and a wick can be turned up. :D

A Mk3 (facelifted Mk2) is OK as long as you check the bonnet lock thing. The later one (aka the Diesel Nissan Leaf :D) is very very very very heavy. And ugly.

Thats one of my flags to warn me against buying a specific car for a long term investment. What you save up front is usually more than made up for by what you spend keeping it running. Not to mention the hassle of having to fix it, sometimes at inconvienient times.

Unless of course your plan is to buy it, drive it into the ground and scrap it.

The known problems are :

Early clutch failed quickly - replaced by a larger one, all done under warranty by now.
Rear exhaust cylinder rots very quickly - stainless replacement
Gear change joint thingy wears - better replacement available

Nothing major mechanically and none of them rusting as yet. They are one of the most highly depreciating cars available though so whilst I wait they get cheaper. I don't change for a long time so I'm not too concerned about resale value for me.

The C1 is not a patch on a Lupo! My parents had a 1.0 mpi arosa (we called it the arouser..) took everything thrown at it, and was fun.

If you're looking for a "minimalist" motor thats reliable, cheap to run and big enough for occasional "Family forrays" then its got to be a KA..

In the small car category, a petrol and diesel sound to be about even. I would do a cost comparison of cost per mile which would take into account the difference in fuel costs.

FWIW, a "peppy" engine encourages a bit more aggressive driving. Assuming you can resist the urge to rev the bolts off of it, you'd likely get better than average economy quite easily.

But with the diesel you can make use of the used chip fat and motor oil by dumping it into the fuel tank after a bit of filtering. Of course, with a mainly full tank I do that with a petrol powered vehicle with no issues.

Horses for courses I suppose. Its not on my list. A TDi maybe.

The later ones (the Fiat 500 based ones) are not impressive in Petrol form. The TDCi is expensive but there are a few about.

Just spotted a cheap-ish Mini One D... :D

veggie oil in a petrol engine? this is a first, how well does it do?

Tricky because of servicing. I may start to do minor ones myself again and leave the bigger stuff (timing belts) to the professionals. Some come with deals that include the servicing but you know its going to be the bare basic servicing, cheap materials etc.

I had a Matiz which has a revvy 3 cyl 800cc when I moved to Edinburgh. The engine was OK for no power (55 hp) and I never went over 40. What killed it for me was the awful ride (very narrow so it swayed a lot) and the awful gearchange. One technique to keep up momentum was to arrive at a roundabout in the right gear and speed so you could feed into the flow, but I could never get 2nd gear from 3rd, only from 1st.

The absolute final straw was when the dent repair guy fixed a massive ding in the bonnet just using his fingers. :eek:

Essentially what I'm arguing is that you spend circ 1k on a 8-10 yr old Ka, which you can service yourself for under £40 a time, none of that fiat based frivolity.

As for the Mini, just say no!

I know what you mean, go for the cheap motoring route. Unfortunately Mrs A won't go for that. I won a car a few years ago, an MG Metro - Classic! As I didn't go anywhere and it was solid I fancied using it as a daily driver but she wouldn't let A Jnr anywhere near it. Anything over 3-4 years is 'old' for her even when it has a fresh MOT and no rust.

Also don't the original KAs crumble quite quickly ?

Already have but its interesting how cheap these things are becoming.

Its a fair comment re the Jnr..

If thats the case then, some Renault based clio age should suffice- all have decent Ncap ratings, and impact absorbing front wings etc

Still have to get past the age thing. If it was something big (and of course thirsty) like an Ovlov then she would be fine but then would moan about the age :(

Got an interesting deal on one of these on a lease to buy :

http://pictures2.autotrader.co.uk/im...?id=1606353235

which is a granny special really :D but it has a reasonable spec, is a little more solid than the Aygo / 107 / C1 trio from having a poke about in it, and is identical in performance / economy. > 51 MPG on the urban cycle - engine is 2cc smaller than the Aygo one and exactly the same hp / lb-ft

I wouldn't keep the lease / credit I would use it to get the dealer discount on offer and then pay it off asap - I hate credit. Its also used and not new.

I haven't gone for it still mulling.

If Mrs A gets a company car then we have 2 cars to trade in so she wants to wait and see that way. My view is that if I swap to something cheaper we can just sell her car and keep the cash for some house work we need to get done and the pensions could do with an injection of funds after the banks ruined them over the last 24 months.

I'm getting frugal in my old age I think but I'm looking to take money out of car spending and into other things. If I swing it right then I can pay for our part in A Jnr's birthday (he is saving and doing house jobs for the rest) in May and come out slightly ahead. :thumbup:

Maybe. :turtle:

EDIT - Same "Official" figures for the PIXO (above) as for the C1

It also comes as a Suzuki...

http://fwdcdn.channel5.com/upload/00...peg?1254482715

The more I think about diesel, the more I want a petrol. I'm currently doing my best with my old diesel, but the 10000 French dying every year because particles isn't worth the small saving I have compared to a small petrol (and I drive 22222km/year = 13800mi/year). See Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and use the "Look Up Greenest Vehicles" menu for California state to see the cleanest diesel are only at ULEV while a RX450h is at SULEV.

Also I wouldn't risk to make a kill switch on a modern diesel (with high pressure pump).

I also looked at C1/107 and smart for2. I don't really like the twingo and it looks like a toy to my wife's eyes. Sadly any option makes the price to rise very fast, the rpm per example, and lots of options aren't available, cruise control per example (which is a must for me as I want to make A-B-A tests). With all these small cars you have to buy a SGII.

Prius and Insight are at SULEV level since so long... unbreakable and certainly much more fun than small cars.

Both Prius and Insight have great Euro'ncap notation.

A good point for the Prius : it has a plug'in kit available, perfect for small daily commutes ;) Even if I have a long daily commute, this makes a second hand Prius my best wish.

Denis.

Take a look at the new Consumer Reports April, 2011 on vehicle repairs, page 78 and you will see a marked increase in maintenance after only five years. My experience is that certain econo models suffer far worse than the higher end. For me it gets to be a bother that things start to corrode, leak, and fail far too regularly (for a daily driver at least) once the car gets over ten years old and some can be very expensive, sometimes surpassing the value of the car. There are exceptions, but they're just that. Replacing a heater core or clutch for example in some cars is a major and expensive job if you need to have it done. Some peoples pain/annoyance threshold is higher than others. For example we always try to have one newer car and one ten year old car in good condition. Mileage accounts for most maintenance but so does age for the aforementioned kind of issue.

I'm trying to sort what you all are going on about.

I've never owned a vehicle less than 8 years old, and the vast majority have been more than 10 at date of purchase. And the vehicle I had with the fewest miles had only 90k miles on it. Sure, the bit of extra care to keep them maintained take a bit of time, but I've yet to pay more in repair costs plus the cost of the vehicle than even a 3 year old vehicle. And I do put miles on, and my wife tends to love driving a bit too aggressively.

I suppose if my wife complained about a 3 yr old vehicle being old, I'd laugh at her and tell her I'm not made of money. Then again, all that salty sea air may change things considerably. I'm a couple hundred miles inland, so cars tend to last a long time out here. To be quite honest, most autos out here end up being scrapped before their time, so I assume something about Europe drastically shortens the life of vehicles.

Veggie oil in a gasser is something I actually have experimented with rather successfullly. Whenever I have a bit of engine problems, such as lack of power, or suspected clogged injectors, or rough idle, I put in a quart of veggie oil straight from the bottle, a bottle of acetone in the form of original nail polish remover, and the strongest rubbing alcohol I can find (90% is usually the one I go for.)

You'd be suprised how this will get an aged engine running better nearly instantly. And it usually has lasting results.

Whenever I have to change the motor oil, or we change out the cooking oil in the fryers, I'll strain it out with a coffee filter and plop in to as much as a gallon in a full tank with no noticeable change in performance. Even when I put in as much as 1/2 a gallon of veggie oil in a nearly empty tank, the worst I noticed was the exhaust smelled slightly of burnt cooking oil. The smell of the exhaust strikes my ineterst. When it smells strong of unspent fuel, I know I have a problem. If I smell burnt oil, I look for the engine using up oil. I suppose that's why I like e85. Sure it burns a bit more fuel, but it smells a lot better during fueling and while burning it.

Mech, I can understand the addition of acetone and alcohol to petrol, but I'm curious: what exactly is the advantage of adding veggie oil? I am reminded of rotary engine enthusiasts who add two-stroke oil to their petrol, although I assume that this is much different.

Go Petrol!

To buy a MINI I would have to be in touch with my inner git. To buy a Prius I would have to think about my inner saint. :D Its on the think about it list though. The cheapest one near me is on at £8.5K with 50K on the clock but the dealer selling it is not one I would take a warranty from (Arn*** cl**k) and would be a PITA to deal with. The cheapest dealer one is £10.5K with 30K on the clock which is more than I've ever spent on a car :D I need to trade so I wouldn't go for a private sale, not many of those anyway. No there are no Insight gen 1s either or Prius Mk1 - they only sold < 100 each of those here.

I'm not convinced about the net polution thing either, the production line of the Prius is several million miles given all the exotic materials being used.

A facelifted Mk2 would just about fit, and they come with nifty tiny DCis as an option as well as petrol. If only Watchdog hadn't screamed so much about the bonnets flying open. :eek:

They are built to a cost and not a standard granted. The makers sometimes compromise on parts vs warranty and leave the hassle to the owners. The C1/Aygo/107 trio got caught out with the clutch issue on early models - it was costing them more to fix the warranty failures than to fit a better part at the factory, so they changed over.

We (Mrs A and I) have also been stung with high-end money pits (I'm looking at you Volvo...) which end up being uneconomic to keep. For some reason independents wouldn't touch ours and it always ended up back at the dealer we were trying to avoid for ripping us off whenever it needed diagnosis.

How useless / dishonest was that dealer ? They did 4-wheel alignment as it was wearing tyres. They found the rear out but said as it has a solid axle they couldn't fix it they could only replace the axle. Then I pointed out the V70 is FWD with struts at the back...:(

The contrast here is that the current Mrs A likes to save and also doesn't want anything old - 3 years is extreme, more like maybe 5 would be the limit. I would probably have an average age of 10 years old or so but this is limited by my restricted spannering skills and time plus I do IT and not mechanics so she's not too comfortable with me fixing stuff - although I have done quite a bit over the years.

I also don't do high miles - I got Helga with 26K on the clock 6 years ago (as of Jan 1st) and she has just clicked past 60K. And most of that is suburban driving with a very occasional longer trip - maybe once a month. On longer journeys she is great for FE - 65 average last week for the 2 days I was on the road. To and from work is a struggle to beat 50-55 which is why my overall average is low. Very good for a car this fast but I don't use the fast bit much any more.

And no, there is no public transport alternative.

Any more details ? :thumbup: