Poll for Americans: What about Diesel engines?
 

Dear American friends,
what do you think about diesel engines cars?

In Europe aprox. 50% of the cars have a diesel engine. The reasons are political, ecological and I suppose also military.

In my humble opinion the last generation of diesel engines are superior to normal fuel or even hybrid engines (why do we need today two engines ?).
Pros:
1. Less consumption
2. Less CO2 emissions
3. Diesel is less refinished than fuel. Therefore it needs less energy to be produced
4. Fantastic torque values
5. Longer lifespan of the engine
6. Less complicated technology. No spark plugs etc.
7. Diesel is generally cheaper and everywhere available (at least in Europe)

Cons:
1. Higher NOX emission
2. If not equipped with a particulate filter: Toxic dust emissions
(today almost all new diesel engines in Europe come equipped with a self-cleaning filter)
3. Engine is noisier
4. Slight higher purchase price

What do you think ?
Isn’t it time to change ?
Thanks for your considerations.

As a European diesel driver, I'll throw in my three (euro)cents. Among the cons of a diesel car is not only the slightly higher price, but also slightly larger weight. On the other hand, today's hi-tech diesels (high injection pressure, commonrail, turbo) are as elastic and almost as quiet as gassers, yet need less fuel. This is because diesel fuel has more calories than gasoline, and because the engine itself is more efficient (I've seen something like 40% efficient, compared to 30% for gas engines).

As for hal9999's list of pros, diesel is cheaper than gas (point 7.), because it is less refinished (point 4.), so it's easier to produce than gasoline. This was the case until a few months ago. Now the prices are similar, because the need for diesel is much larger: not only are so many cars running on it, but the whole transport industry uses it (trucks, trains, ships). As an example I'll give you today's prices at a gas station nearby:
gasoline 95 octane: $1.30/liter, $4.94/USGallon
gasoline 98 octane: $1.39/liter, $5.29/USGallon
diesel fuel : $1.32/liter, $5.01/USGallon

And Americans are complaining about fuel prices...

Your are partially right.

There are two aspects:

1. The difference of price between Diesel and Gasoline depends of the politics of the country. For example Spain, France, Germany and Italy subsidize Diesel, by tax reductions, and it’s therefore cheaper. In Switzerland Diesel is more expensive because it isn’t subsidized and the high demand.

2. Whatever the demand is, the fact remains that Diesel needs less energy to be produced.

I think diesels are great. One reason we don't have many diesels in the U.S. is that we couldn't buy them in passenger cars for a long time. People wanted them, but Mercedes and VW would not sell them because they would not meet strict US air pollution rules. Manufacturers have now started introducing diesels back into the US since we now have only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel (ULSD). Now, with the combination of ULSD and the new diesel engines, diesels can meet air pollution rules in all 50 states and will soon be sold by Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and VW.

There are a lot of diesel fanatics in the US, but the shear scarcity of diesel cars has made many other people wary of buying them. Hopefully that will soon change.

As for the price of diesel fuel - in the US the price of diesel and gas has always averaged about the same. Most people think that diesel is usually cheaper, but that is not the case (it's an urban myth). Right now diesel is much more expensive than gas, with a gallon of gas in my town at $1.56/gallon and a gallon of diesel is $2.50/gallon.

Huh, :-(
this makes diesel cars less attractive for the Americans.

For the good of the country, we need the diesel. The difference in efficiency makes them a means of reducing our dependence on imported oil. If all our gas vehicles instantly became diesels, our fuel consumption would drop by 25-40%.

Another thought. There is some work being done on algal biodiesel and synthetic (Fischer-Tropsch) diesel/jet fuel. The gasoline made by F-T is only 80 octane. To use biodiesel you need a diesel.

The environmental regulations put in place in the US in 2007 have been all pain and no gain for US diesel owners. The fuel costs a buck a gallon more and now the vehicles have this goofy barrier filter and urea injection. That's not the way to win over the people to the diesel. These regs are the work of the devil.

The price differential is wearing on even hard-core diesel fans like me. My 25 MPG truck costs the same to fuel up as a 15 MPG gas pig.

Europe too will soon introduce new very restrictive anti-pollution directives.

But in my opinion this is the right way.

European carmakers, as leader in diesel engines, will be forced to new technologies.

It’s amazing how BMW, Peugeot, Mercedes, VW and Co. made in only a few years from a polluting noisy diesel engine new superb diesel motors. But only because of continuously new restrictive anti-pollution laws.

Fe. Peugeot developed the particulate filter, albeit the Germans claimed this was not possible, and made thus out of the diesel motor a clean engine.
BMW makes incredibly low consumption engines.

PS. What do you mean by << goofy barrier filter >> ?

Up here in Canada, the fuel price differential is less severe than it is stateside. Currently, in Edmonton, Alberta, gasoline costs between 65-71 c/L, whereas the least expensive diesel fuel is 78.4c/L

Until Ultra-low Sulfur Diesel formulations came out, Diesel tended to be cheaper than gasoline here in summer, and more expensive than gasoline when winter comes. The past year or two, as all stations here became ULSD fuel only, the price has tended to be at parity with gasoline per volume, or higher.

Part of the price competition for diesel in winter in North America is the large number of fuel-oil heated homes in the Eastern seaboard -- Both in the US and Canada. The other big issue I see is simply supply and demand: With a majority of gasoline powered vehicles, less diesel is produced on this continent.

And at the macro-economic level, the US and Europe have been cross-shipping overproductions of diesel (US -> Europe), and gasoline (Europe -> US) which has kept diesel prices higher in N. America than the previous year, while the gasoline imports have helped stabilize prices for that fuel more than otherwise. This is all aside of taxes, tarriffs, and subsidies on fuels.

Oh, and one more con for the diesel list, as an owner: Harder cold starting in VERY cold winter temperatures.

I'm regretting that I did not put my scheme for a two-battery relocate to my trunk of my Jetta this winter season. It's only mid-December, and the first -25C temperatures this weekend kept my car from starting. :(

Time to post this, and go hunt down a way of insulating my battery better to help retain more heat.

That would be the Diesel Particulate Filter.

I think diesel engines are great from an efficiency standpoint. They are generally way more fun to drive on the street than petrol cars because of their low end torque.

However, from an environmental standpoint they absolutely needed tough emissions regulations. I've been in cities full of 10+ years old diesel cars and it's not pretty. Anyone against emissions regulations for diesels in the name of efficiency would probably change their mind after a couple minutes walking the streets of such a place.

I realized yesterday why my dad hates diesels: The mess of fumes and junk falling out the back. I backed almost 500yds off an old 80's Ford diesel because of how much it stunk. It was not pleasant at all. Now the 300d I was behind not long ago I didn't even know it was a diesel till I got closer and read the tag. There needs to be tougher legislation for older diesels, as that's where the "hate" (like my dad) comes from.

Although when someone buys a new Cummins Dodge and mods it, it still ends up like an 80's Ford. :( people suck.

This was true with the older generation of diesel engines and less quality diesel fuel.
I own myself a diesel and had never such problems and never heard anyone complain about this the few last years. The Scandinavians have too – 25 C temperatures but thanks additives, which the fuel companies add in the winter to diesel, the problem has disappeared.

Your economic analysis is absolutely correct. The fuel swap between the US and the EU sadly doesn’t meet the demand of diesel in Europe. And this will continue for a while because of the overproduction of normal fuel.

Fortunately the US and Canada wont have this problem thanks to the latest diesel technologies. :-)

I have to disagree that diesels aren't affected by really cold temperatures anymore. When things get cold you aren't going to be able to use any diesel fuel (#2 fuel oil) - it will gel in the fuel tank. Biodiesel is even worse. I have to start worrying about my biodiesel fuel in the 30s(F). What is used in place of diesel fuel in very cold areas is pure kerosene, #1 fuel oil. It may be a fine point, but kerosene is not technically diesel fuel.

One of the main reasons Diesels last longer is due to the air and oil filters that they employ. The Engine also maintains a 100:1 ratio of air to fuel, thus reducing the amount of junk that gets into the sump via blow-by. I would get a European D-4D Toyota diesel for the Rolling Lemon if I: A) could find one. B) Had the Money for it. and C) could install it myself.

It's not a question of whether Americans want diesels, we are more informed now and DO WANT THEM. The tree-huggers (no offense to those of us conservationists on this site, I am talking about the hippies that go for week long excursions to become dendrophiliacs) are who prevent the technology coming to America, and therefore also plant the mindset of filthy diesels.

[/Rant]

Diesels ignite the mixture by compression, no spark there, just the shear heat of compressed air. When it's really cold outside, injection timing is of utmost importance in order to get an easy cold start by injecting the fuel at exactly the right time. In older TDIs like mine, the timing when starting is fixed at the rotary fuel pump and not controlled by the ECU yet. A hard to start TDI when it's cold probably have its basic timing off from the optimal position. In common rail diesels that's not a problem anymore as timing is always controlled by the ECU.

My TDI always started in the winter and, from a FE standpoint I'm a bit ashamed to say, I never plugged it unless it was below -30 C.

I've never had my D2 or ULSD gel even by -40 C. They must use a whole lot of anti-gel additives up here.

Let me start by saying I am pro diesels in general.....But

Right now, with the situation in the US. Diesels are a break even to slight downside as opposed to a gasser. The additional cost for the average (less than 12k miles per year) driver for the diesel and it's maintenance are a downside. However, for the more abundant drivers, they definately pay.

My father has a 1998 cummins TD 2500 Dodge, I have a 1997 V8 360 gasser. They are the same body style, both 4X4, auto trans, same gear ratio and really a pretty good comparison. We are also both almost anal about maintenance/tire presssures etc. (I claim that I learned it from him :))

We made the same trip from RS to Cheyenne on the same day. Both trucks were empty (we were helping a friend move to RS from Chey)....The cost at the pump was within 50 cents of each other. A definite wash.

However, an oil change for mine was 21.95 and for his was 49.95.
the additional weight puts more strain on the front end and he needed ball joints at 75K.
Any repair he has had done has been about 50% more than a comprable repair on the gasser.
This is in addition to his being almost $10,000 more on the initial price tag.

At this point, gas is $1.30 in town....diesel is a little over $2. Even a bigger spread than it was when we did the test.

In small cars, you can get a gas rated at 35. A diesel would need to get 60-ish to break even.

Refineries are still geating up to make more of the low-sulfur diesel. As it becomes more readily available, I believe the cost will decrease. As it and gasoline get closer together in cost....then the American public will start to switch. However, with the economy the way it is, I see more people hanging on to their older cars longer. I just hope they tune them regularly if they are going to do that.

Jim

Diesels are the future! But not the way you may think- read on.

Back when I was stationed in Europe in the 90's, we enjoyed renting incredible diesel vehicles. On the longer trips we would often wonder if their fuel gauges had broken!

I wrote numerous letters to Ford and GM urging them to bring their incredible "clean" Euro diesels back to our home market. I always got the same reply: it was cost prohibitive to meet EPA pollution requirements with our non-Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD)-at the time.

After too many years of delay, ULSD became required by law in the US. When it finally became mandated in Oct 2006, I thought "Great, now we should see a plethora of "clean" diesels in the US market!"

Well, a couple of things had happened between the 90's and Oct 2006:
1. During the Clinton administration, taxes on diesel fuel were levied at a rate 50% higher than gasoline. As a few of you have experienced, diesel fuel costs ~20-35% more than a gallon of regular unleaded.
2. The economy has delayed US diesel programs at the Detroit 3, Honda, and Hyundai, among others.

I am certain of the inevitability of "clean" diesel proliferation in the US market. And I am not alone in this assessment: US refiners are following the lead of Marathon Oil in investing over $2 billion to expand their diesel refining capacity in the US. (even the big ExxonMobil has announced a +$1 billion diesel refining initiative for the US).

Diesels arent the future if your in cold weather, if they were we'd all be driving deisel volkswagon rabbits and they didn't sell a ton of them did they. The cost cancels out ANY gain EVERY time you figure it out. the cost of the fuel vs the savings in MPG wash that out; unless......... you can name me one manufacturer that prices the vehicle cheaper than an equal gas engine model,,,just one,,,,comon,,, any body wanna tell me? <tapping fingers>, well; Ah that's what I thought. There aren't any. Case closed!

Is this what folks refer to as "Trolling?"

Anyway...
This is the same argument Bob Lutz used to explain why GM refused to pursue gasoline-electric Hybrid technology. A few years later he was eating crow trying to explain to shareholders why GM missed the Hybrid boat and had to try to play catch-up to Toyota. Now the future of GM rides, in no small part, on its ability to leapfrog Toyota with the Volt plug-in electric vehicle. I hope GM can stay solvent and recover its lead someday.

I concede that economically speaking, hybrids or alternative fuel vehicles (to include diesels) may make little sense. (a few years back I put together a spreadsheet that demonstrated that the time to recuperate the price premium between a Corolla and Prius if fuel was $4/gallon was just over 12 years.)

Yet it may not be about the personal cost of a vehicle, but the barrels of foreign oil you don't consume that counts. That's less revenue that makes it into the hands of unsavory folks like Ahmidenijad, and Hugo Chavez.

Ultimately, this money may find its way into the hands of terrorist groups. Additionally, how many conflicts could we avoid if the US wasn't as dependent on foreign oil as it is? I saw a bumper sticker on a Prius that kind of sums it up: "Bin Ladin hates this car."

It's hard to put a price tag on that.

Peace.

.

Ok then lets do something about using this foreign oil. I know; lets put an embargo on this largest oil importer. Lets close all trade with this country, for after all this country gets our money and like you said, we really don't know what they do with it. But wait; maybe we should warn this largest oil importing country to stop this unsavory support of who knows who OR ELSE! And lets lets them know we mean OR ELSE. And if they think they can get a free ride off of our oil dollars, we will use any measure necessary. Only then will this largest oil importing country will feel the rath of the United States. And who you ask is this largest oil importer?,,,,,,,,,,,CANADA, Hm wonder how many guys in power up there are named " Ahmidenijad, and Hugo Chavez."

You won't ever convice anyone to buy a diesel in place of gas, or a hybrid (remmember there is NO disposial system in place for the batteries in them) vehicle untill you make them COST THE SAME Key words are cost. You can tout all the Toyota sucess facts all you want but if they were the know-all high-tech gurus why haven't they done anything in Formula 1? If there is anything that comes from Diesels it will be a hybrid Diesel from europe, not japan. It is they who are years ahead of the curve on this and not the japanese. Incedently Honda is first now working on this trying to catch Audi. Their LeMans wins have proved a lot and that is what has caused the Diesel debate to get stirred up. Only problem is the age old one, cold starting and a price for the masses, not your-we have to do it for the availability of fuel argument. if it will happen thats how it has to happen and the two problems I mentioned have to be resolved. If the Pirus is the answer why isn't every car on the road a Pirus?

I wish the world were as simple as you say. In our global economy- oil prices are affected by a multitude of factors. Supply and demand. If one member of OPEC sneezes (yes, I know, Canada is not part of OPEC), the rest of the world runs for a hanky.

Every dollar sent overseas to buy foreign oil adds to our trade deficit. Last time I checked, in 2007-2008 we spent nearly 700 BILLION in foreign oil to satisfy our insatiable domestic energy needs. I'm glad Canada is getting a large portion of this (as is Mexico)- but inevitably Hugo and Ahmidenijad get their slice through the global market as well. (I've made no mention of Saudi Arabia's global portion. Do you recall that 17 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were of Saudi origin?)

F1 and LeMans racing in general have little bearing on overall US vehicle sales- so that argument isn't valid. We're talking about the US diesel market-correct?

Why aren't all vehicles on the road Prius? Simple, it's called freedom of choice.

I don't drive a Prius- because I can't stomach how boring it is to drive. That is my choice. However, I have driven "clean" turbo-diesels in Europe (from Ford and GM-Opel among others) that were 10x as fun to drive.

Yes, there are diesel cars available in the US right now- but I don't plan on owning one until I can buy one that is US-built. Again- this is my personal choice of wanting to support US workers.

Peace.

Filled up my van this week at 1.69 a gallon for 87 :) and also my tractor at 2.99 for ULSD :(

I am just waiting on the HCCI engines to come out then we can not worry about it and get the best of both worlds.

Say what??? No disposal system in place for batteries??? Not at all what I've heard. Can you cite reference for that?


Personally, I enjoy diesels tremendously. A ride in my cousin's diesel sports coupe while I was visiting him in Germany back in the 90's convinced me they don't all have to be boring, noisy, smelly vehicles... dang, that thing was a hoot!! I wish my gasoline-powered vehicles had that kind of "get up -n- go"!

But I agree that the general public has different perspectives. I mean, just pumping the stuff can be a turn-off. I can still smell the fuel a couple of days after, even though I've washed... some stations provide disposable gloves, but not all of them. So I can understand how most folks wouldn't want to deal with that...

theres an answer, Total domestic isolationizm

At my work they always kid me as the guy that has an answer for everything, and as I look back at my passion of working with some of the best there is in motorsports, you try and have that train of thought, always because as the ols saying goes, "if you won't somebody will"

Well theres an answer to that too, you don't have a US passport, get out!

Ok for these few seconds I'll make your point valid and take away EVERYTHING that had roots in the sport that has now a bearing on YOUR car; Your Toyota Corrolla. Lets start with the things racing has "no bearing on vehicle sales" like your seat belts, traction control, digital fuel injection, high preasure aluminium castings, radial tires, composite materials, disk brakes, low restriction exhaust, direct drive automatic transmissions, floating disk brake rotors, fire retardent interior materials, multi-viscosity motor oils & synthetics, Kevlar fiber (first automotive use 1967 Ford GT40 body); Rack & pinion steering, that prescious 16 valve head in your Corolla, it doesn't end, there are so many improvements we make in our race cars that you have no idea now what a better car in your future would become and yes it will reflect in sales and has a "bearing" on sales because you the consumer will have a better safer more efficiant car. Put some High pressure Helium gas ceramic wheel bearings on your car and see what a differance the miliage would be just by changing that alone. Don't even try to tell me none of this is valid.

Yes we are, is Audi part of that market?

No it's called -IT COSTS TOO MUCH,,,,,PERIOD!


If you wanted something that wasn't boring you would be shopping for a 911

If you believed that, whats that Toyota doing in your driveway?

Not what you heard? Give me the name of one company thats braking down lithium-ion and Nickel Metal Hydrde batteries. There all being stock-piled as of yet. Go By a Prirus and see all the stuff we don't know what to do with in there, all to save a gallon of gas, but then the japs don't really care about us, just the money we send them now do they.

Toyota.

Anybody here think the Tier II diesels are not more efficient if you lose the DPF?

All filters induce a pressure loss. That is back pressure. A diesel is very sensitive to back pressure. Back pressure is what works (non-Jacobs) diesel exhaust brakes.

The DPF is an example of making a lot of people pay a very steep price for an infinitesimal benefit that acrues to a very small part of the population.

And the DPF defeats the strength of the diesel. If I had one, the DPF would be on the garage floor as fast as I could cut it off.

It shouldn't be a significant pressure drop unless they're improperly designed. Technically mufflers induce a pressure loss, but the trade-off is worthwhile.

That makes no sense whatsoever. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. In 2005 in the US, TDI engines were in 15% of Jettas sold. In Canada the figure was 50%. We love diesels up here, yet I believe we get somewhat colder winters than you do.

Tier II is not alone to be blamed on reduced diesel efficiency in recent years. The later TD engines ran at 22:1 compression, than the first TDIs were at 19.5:1 and the new 2.0 16v CR engine runs at 16.5:1. That's the tradeof to go after an higher hp per liter figure. The whole bsfc map is being pushed higher up the rpm range with every generation. That have a cost on fuel economy.

From Wiki on Toyota. The company that is quoted as having a disposal system for thier batteries;

Despite its many environmental advances, corporate watchdog Corporate Accountability International (CAI) selected the Toyota Motor Corporation as one of its nominees (along with Archer Daniels Midland, Countrywide, Mattel, Nestle, Blackwater, Wal-Mart, and Wendy’s) for its 2008 "Corporate Hall of Shame" elections. CAI states that Toyota is contributing to inaction on global warming. The watchdog group claims that "the company has hypocritically crafted an image as a corporate ally in the fight against climate change while working behind the scenes to stop greenhouse gas mandates from becoming law." The group points out that Toyota, has opposed "clean cars" legislation in many U.S. states, and is employing "aggressive lobbying efforts" to prevent legislation to limit gas-guzzling vehicles by 2020

Hmm, sounds like a real eco-friendly company to me

Really? well right now at 9:40 am in Nashotah Wisconsin its 12 below zero F(-12F=-23C) In Quebec City it's 3 degrees above zero F. My nieghbors brand new diesel jetta WILL NOT START! What a surprize. I had to take her to the store. I don't think shes gonna be keeping it for too long. The salesman claimed everything you just cited and I guess it didn't help her this morning. Shes pretty ticked. With the mandantory plugging in in the winter, additives in the fuel larger batteries, increased cost of the vehicles, higher fuel prices. The playing field is not equal and I DO know what I'm talking about, or are you saying it is just as easy to start a diesel engine compared to a gas engine with niether of them plugged in and both of them with the same exact blends of fuel they use in the summer at 30 below zero F? I suspect not. Like I said earlier when diesels and or hybrids are priced the same then the masses will change the market.

See this article from Greencar.com from 2006
Diesel-Powered Audi Wins Le Mans
07/10/2006


Here's one for the record books. The Audi R10 TDI, powered by a 650 hp V-12 diesel engine, has become the first diesel car to win what many consider to be the most grueling race in the world: the Le Mans 24 Hour race. Not only was the R10 TDI fast - setting the quickest lap of the day at 3 minutes, 31 seconds - the diesel engine proved reliable and remarkably quiet compared to its gasoline-powered competitors. The fuel economy advantage of diesel power was clear: the R10 TDI became the first sports car in the top-rung LM P1 class to cover 16 laps with one fuel load, and the car's average of 14 laps between refueling pit stops was considerably higher than the competition, according to Audi. Completing 380 laps in 24 hours, Audi also set a new distance record.

And lest you think Audi's high-performance diesel ambitions are limited to the racetrack, consider this: we've heard reports that the new Audi TT, which is coming to the U.S. in 2007 as a 2008 model, will be available with a diesel engine option. A diesel-powered TT would bring a much-needed efficiency boost to the sports car segment and - if it ever made it to the U.S. - liven up America's limited but growing diesel car market. And what better way to follow up a diesel-powered Le Mans win than with a diesel TT in the showroom? We never thought the old adage "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" would apply to diesels, but we'd be welcome the change.

This will change when manufactures get all the bugs out of them. But in the present they typically harder to start. You have to do more things to help them start in cold weather. The woman next door wants a car that will work just like the gasoline powered car she traded in. She doesn't know much in the mechanics of a car, all she knows is she has to go to the store, it's cold, and shes wants her car to start so she can drive it. Now Audi proved something that was never thought possable. And as this article shows they aren't just thinking of winning races. Shell Oil made special fuel for that car as well. What it does show is for every team on that day they all layed it out on the line to win and Audi used this very technology we are debating to win the hardest long distance race in the world. And they did it. That is the kind of drive automakers have to use to develop something that can be perfected so that ALL of us can someday have in our own cars.

The new body style Camry is built in Kentucky, therefore making it an American made car.

You didn't ask whether or not they were considered environmentally friendly by a corporate watchdog group, you asked for the name of a company that recycled NiMH batteries. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by guudasitgets
If you believed that, whats that Toyota doing in your driveway?

And the money you paid for this went ultimately where?, US or Japan?

So what your saying is you "believe them" when the "say" they recycle them? Do we know where this recycling facility is? I put that up there because Toyota says a lot of things and there are time they don't have systems in place. I'm not a coprate watchdog group I was in the battery business though. For most of the non lead acid battery types there is not too much recycling in the US, NiCad's are the worst. For the others there is a lot of stock piling till plants get geared up to recycle them. There isn't a lot out there, and with US regulations is very hard and expensive to set a plant up in the US. I'm sure before Toyota put the Hybrids on the market they had to say they would recycle the batteries otherwise the US would never let them sell. But there isn't much in this country.

Thats an irrelevant argument, because no money really stays in one place anymore. But a Ford escort, it was built in Mexico, buy a Camry, it was built in Kentucky, either way the companies have to pay employees and costs related to the country their in and country of origin. Not to mention worldwide investments and such. No auto manufacturer has their entire opertaion in one location because all vendors outsource for the cheapest price.

I heard it best in Armageddon .... "Russian components, American Components ... all made in Taiwan"

If you have solid information that proves they aren't recycling feel free to post it, but asking if I "believe them" when they "say" whatever can be applied to just about anything. Bull like that is just trolling.

P.S. Should I "believe you" that your neighbor "said" she couldn't get her car started? Do we know where this neighbor is? I put that up there because I'm trolling/joking in the same way. ;)

I’m the guy who started this thread.
First I’m very pleased about your comments (negative or positive) !

Please allow me to throw-in my 2-cent opinion.

1. Regarding the problem with cold temperatures, it seams that Diesel driven countries like Europe (specially Scandinavia) and Canada have resolved this problem. Maybe the Diesel fuel in the US hasn’t the same quality as in the above-mentioned countries. On the other hand, in Alaska all large trucks/lorries use Diesel. Ask them how they can continue to transport valuable loads during the winter?

2. Politics and religion are a dangerous way to use them as evidence. Everyone is right and on the same time wrong. It’s an endless discussion. Although I agree that Diesel could reduce the dependency against the main fuel producers, our dependency remains!
It won’t solve the problem, as long we don’t have cars that don’t use fossil energy,
Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Russia remain the main crude oil producers.

3. Regarding the Hybrid engines: I believe that a Hybrid Diesel engine is more energy efficient than a gasoline one. The question, although, remains: Do we really need such high tech vehicles, to transport, mainly ONE person from A to B ?
I recently read that the same fuel economy could be reached by a high tech Diesel engine (please don’t ask me where I read that! I don’t remember!).
I repose my question: Why do we need two engines to transport mainly ONE person?

There is simple rule used by car manufactures:
A: a car consumes during it’s live-span so many X Liters / Gallons of fuel.
B: The manufacturing of it consumes about the same amount of energy!
C: The recycling of it consumes, again more or less, the same amount of energy!

Therefore a less complicated Diesel engine car needs less energy to be constructed and recycled as a complicated two engine Hybrid car!

4. Regarding the patriotism, in other words was this car build by American or German workers, is also an endless discussion, and it’s very risky!
Many parts of German cars are build in eastern Europe and Asia. The same is valid for American cars. So how do we quantify how much an American car is really American???

5. And to finish, with a more or less polemic issue. What about IMHO, the senseless Iraqi war? Aren’t almost all military vehicles Diesel driven?
Doesn’t this contribute to the shortcoming of Diesel production?

This is just my opinion and no offend is included.

I personally think Diesel still has a great future.

My world view on fuel would be ...

-More efficient diesels to replace gas
-Incorporating Diesel generators with Electric cars to reduce dependancy on diesel
-Incorporate Solar power with Electric in order to phase out Diesel and all other Fossil fuel
-At the same time develop Hydrogen powered cars derived from water
-Eventually drive water powered cars not needing battery banks or non-renuable fossil fuels

I think this time line stretches well into the Jetsons, but why can't one dream.

Money will always trump progress, especially when progress cuts back on the money. Maybe one day wealth will loose meaning, opening the doors for real progress. Yeah right ..

Demonstrably false, since people do buy hybrids. Got one (Honda Insight) in my driveway. Toyota seems to have managed to sell all its Prius output, at least until the last couple of months - and they're STILL selling better than SUVs. Same applies to diesels: people buy them.

Why should there be, until there's actually a significant number of NiMH batteries around that need to be recycled? The great majority of hybrid battery packs are still going strong: of the ones that do fail, it's often a matter of replacing one bad cell (or string, for the Honda packs), after which the refurbished pack can go back in service.

'Cause Toyota can only build so many per year? Because there's more than one possible answer? Every car on the road may not be a Prius, but there sure are a lot of them, and Honda hybrids, and they're getting more common every year :-)