Poll: should EcoModder ban certain forum topics? (HHO, magnets, Ram Implosion Wings)
 

Recently a number of tired, old threads have been dredged up: one on HHO, the other on fuel line magnets.

With the price of fuel inching up again in North America, new registrations and activity are increasing in the forum... and we know from past experience that high fuel prices are correlated with crackpot activity.

With that in mind, in the interest of attempting to preserve a decent signal:noise ratio on the forum, I had this thought: a blanket ban policy (or strong discouragement) of threads about certain mods which aren't based on well-understood science, and which tend to be popular among conspiracy theorists and people grasping for elixirs & magic bullets.

There are plenty of other forums around where people wanting to discuss those topics are would be welcomed with open arms.

I tend to see those threads as generating more heat than light. They mostly distract from discussion of real mods that have a basis in science / engineering. They also tend to bring out the worst in people (in terms of the tone of the discussions).

What do you think? Please vote & comment!

[Note: the benevolent dictators here at EcoModder aren't bound by the poll results :) ]

I voted yes, but we should be open to new thoughts where we might have to do a little research to understand the principles involved. Not trying to speak for others, just saying the is still more for me to learn.

regards
Mech

That's a severe limitation, and it begs the question : accepted by whom ?

Mainstream, i.e. widely accepted auto engineering, design and solutions are constantly being challenged on this site. With good results, too.

Accepted science once decided the Earth was flat and at the centre of the universe.

If need be, scammers can always be debunked.

There may be a semantic issue with the word "accepted."

Maybe it would have been more clear to say "based on scienctific / engineering principles" instead of "based on accepted science / engineering".

The original wording may suggest holding on to the status quo, which wasn't the intent.

So I've changed it.

While many of our mods may not be "accepted" by the auto industry in terms of product decisions for the mass market, I doubt there are many auto engineers who would argue the effectiveness of the successful ones featured here in terms of their potential to improve fuel economy... because they are based on scienctific / engineering principles.

...what? in today's world we really need a GOOD LAUGHING stock!






...I like beach blanket bingo parties (where's Annette?)

I'd say no on the grounds that science is not the field but the approach. If someone is into radioactive hoola-hoops or whatever, as long as they conduct actual testing, and do so in a transparent manner, including documenting possible sources of error in a sincere fashion, i'd say all power to them. (Assuming that their hypothesis of how their device works is subject to disproof to begin with)

If only the world were so perfect! :D

Unfortunately, past experience has revealed a strong negative correllation between the poster's understanding/acceptance of the importance of your points and his/her attraction to radioactive hoola-hoops and similar fuel saving devices/additives.

I vote no. If threads need to be closed, let them be closed. But pre-emptive bannings are overkill.

If a special forum was set up for pseudoscience solutions then sure.

I think there's some danger in having one or a small group of people deciding what's science and what's not. However, there is some stuff that's been well established as bunk (i.e. grooves in intake manifolds, HHO, magnets, gasoline vacuum chambers, etc.). For those topics that it's reasonably universally agreed upon that the science does not back up the claims, I'd suggest a sticky on the topic, a brief summary of the real evidence out there, and new threads started on the topic should be deleted as they appear, referring the OP to the sticky.

Otherwise, with new and untested ideas, I'd say hold the poster's feet to the fire, gather some data, get some others on the forum to give it a try and give them enough rope to either hang themselves or prove the doubters wrong. If they hang themselves, put up a new sticky or add them to the mass-sticky on dubious science.

Let's remember that this isn't CleanMPG, it's Ecomodders. There's been a lot of discoveries here; many in the general population would consider us freaks, but there is learning going on. Keep the door open to the unexpected and currently unexplainable, but of course, retain a skeptical eye.

By the way, I'm not voting because surveys like this narrow the options too much to introduce alternatives to the dominant paradigm.

Hint: voting is multiple choice. ;)

I'm intrigued by the idea of a "crackpot ideas" subforum. Unless there's good evidence the mod works, it's clear to visitors why it's in there.

None of the choices match my ideas.

I'd argue that there haven't been any true "discoveries".

The successful demonstrated mods that come to mind are all based on well-understood principles, most of which have been done before, elsewhere. (The majority have been seen in high efficiency concept cars from the auto makers themselves.)

Definitely lots of learning going on though.

(And no argument about the freaks point.)

potatoe - potato

Did Columbus "discover" America? Was DNA discovered by scientists? Did I discover this website when I found it?

The point is that if someone just told me to cover my lower radiator, I wouldn't. But I "discovered" that if I did it might help with my warm up time, might improve my aerodynamics, and might help my MPG by reading the "research" other users posted on the forum.

Point taken. Semantics strikes again.

No. Because even totally retarded ideas can spin off good ideas. The point is to get us thinking. Laughing usually helps.

...simply create a separate, special page, called "THE TRASH CAN", with the subtitle: where garbage is discovered, researched, mulched, fermented and decomposed (wink,wink).

Totally agree, in theory.

But in practice how many good ideas have been spun off our fuel line magnet threads??

This site is one of the few credible sites that have serious information and people debunking such scams. Banning the discussion just moves it to sites like PESN where there is nothing but supporters. That will lead to more people falling for the scam as there will be nothing but good reviews of it. In the end they will just burn more fuel and that is not what we are about.

Perhaps a sticky with a title like "HHO Generators and Fuel Line Magnets - FAQ" and then debunking in the post would limit them?

Or a sub-forum to kind of keep them in a corral?

Let the garbage come on board; then we get to laugh at it, debunk it, roast the poster, and throw it into The Unicorn File.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...er/unicorn.jpg

Oh, and good things HAVE come from discussions on magnets! I still want an A.C.M.E. arm on the front of my car with a giant magnet on it for glomming on to semis...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...her/magnet.jpg

But I agree about the conundrum of allowing that stuff to fester; Gassavers was overrun with HHO morons for quite a long time and I basically quit stopping in for a look because it had gotten so stupid in there. I think it killed the site.

I voted for choice #1, 3, and 4. :o
'Cause I'm a fence-sitter. :p

I don't like the idea of an outright ban, either. Sure, more often than not the OP is way off base and/or scamming, but from what I've seen it has been met with appropriate responses; either calling bull or requests (later leading to outright demands!) for legitimate testing and data.

One downside is the extra work to referee these threads by the mods; which are doing a heck of a good job, I might add. C'mon GreenStar guys, we haven't tarred and feathered TOO many hucksters, have we? Hee hee hee.

What would we do without Frank's rants?

I like the idea of a separate category for 'em. Put it in the Off-Topic section underneath The Lounge. Let 'em post it where ever, then as it heats up, the mods can throw it into the padded room to keep the rest of the forum on track. We can take turns going in and wailing on it, tag-team style. Ha ha!

I suggest adding a new sub-forum some thing like "dis-proven but waiting for new evidence" then we can place all of those articles there and have them available for those who do not know they are bunk.

This is an experimental site.
Why should you ban based on science and technology?

I agree on the FAQ. Probably a list of items and the link to the debunking experiments (if any) would make more sense.

jakobnev -

I voted no for the same reason. I really *do* want a silver bullet, so I am more than willing to entertain crazy ideas. I am also interested in the "kernel of truth" that usually lies at the bottom of a lot of scams.

CarloSW2

I voted No. By letting uninformed people bring up these things it gives us a teaching opportunity and a chance to point them towards things that will work. Is it annoying at times? Sure, but if you don't want to deal with this sort of thing then just skip over the topic. Hey, everyone has to start somewhere and it might as well be here. After all, why police this forum so hard that it becomes a club for a small group of informed individuals that already know it all? I say that if someone is willing to ask a question and learn from the answer, they should be welcome here. The more people we can teach to save fuel, the less oil we need from unstable parts of the world.

I have to say I'm surprised at the results of the poll so far.

I figured it would lean more towards the "KILL! KILL!" side of things. Instead we're seeing rampant patience and tolerance!

Almost feel a group hug coming on... I gotta go.

An outright ban is too harsh. I like MotoMoe's idea of a special quarantine for pseudoscience. Make a link to the FAQ and a disclaimer than the post contains pseudoscience at least as prominent as the post itself, then folks come by and tell us all about the latest miracle product they just spent a hundred bucks on.

You could always set up the forum, then shut it down and ban everyone who contributed if it becomes a hive of bad engineering. Any good scientist knows it's okay to run an experiment, then change his methodology if he doesn't like the results. ;)

I'm with the quarantine area as well. We should listen to their ideas, and then tell them why it is wrong with factual data.

Because hey, what if somebody there really was a magic bullet?

i'm apposed to the ban because for example the hydrogen fuel cell thing actually worked on my gmc sierra i got a 25% increase in mpg and the engine ran smother i know others haven't had much success with it but it worked on my vehicle 12 - 15 mpg at 5 -10 amps

I voted no with the hopes of some type of sub forum/quarantine process like has been mentioned.

A couple of quick questions for the mods..... Can't a mod close a thread if it gets out of hand anyhow??? So...if someone brings up one of the topics in question and it gets disproven, can it be quickly closed and moved to the quarantine section???

I second that name, if there is to be any place where some threads have to go, and not be let out before they prove themselves sane, that should be the name for it!

We should be open minded. Something new may sound initially like something old that was obviously very flawed, but the new thing may have some aspect to it that no one considered before and operates totally differently than the old thing and is worth at least a look.

Padded room, or Unicorn Corral?

I voted yes, as we shouldn't waste space or time on unscientific hogwash. I had hopes that there would be agreement on what's scientific and what isn't. Sadly, we've dumbed down public education so much, I'm afraid a significant percentage of the population doesn't know the difference. I'm greatly disappointed the plurality wants to waste its time. Oh well, I'll just continue to skip threads on HHO, electric turbochargers, etc.

What about just posting a link to some A-B-A testing that disproves the HHO/Magnets/ect. Then just close the thread?

I do not think a ban is necessary since misinformed people can come here wondering about HHO only to be educated about the scam surrounding such devices.

Amazing how many people believe these lies!

Astronauts did not walk on the moon, Obama born in Kenya, fuel line magnets, chem trails, 100mpg carburetor that burns water, etc... Oh wait big oil companies bought that carburetor from me and I swore to keep the secret......oh no the agents are here knocking at my door.....heeeelllllllppppppp...................... .............boom....end of message/

The Padded Suite at the Unicorn Corral ;)

I definitely like the FAQ / padded room idea. Let 'em come in but if it's already established as bunk hocum, toss it in the bin, with full reasoning and explanation why. But, the "bin" remains as a place where the topic can be discussed - it's just clearly identified as bunk.

I manage an email chat list for my church and at one point I made the misguided choice to disallow political topics. I caught a lot of heat for that. Generally people felt that we should let people speak their minds, and I had to agree.

The email format didn't allow for the capabilities our mods have here, and so the "ban" was completely unworkable. I think that here, an FAQ sticky on a dedicated subforum would be a good plan. Of course the mods would have to move those threads into the bin as needed.

(Sorry, I'm not voting because there's no option yet for a stickie'd "Disproven Scams" subforum.)