Power Steering delete for fuel economy gain - anyone done it?
 

I already have removed my belt-driven radiator fan in my '95 Chevy S10 4 cylinder. It doesn't have air-conditioning, and I am not ready to detach my alternator (yet.)

Has anyone done a power-steering removal on a car?

I would imagine the power steering pump drags on the belt as much a air conditioning does.

Power steering is totally NOT needed MOST of the time while driving.

Does anyone have experience with disconnecting the power steering, replacing it with an electric power steering pump, or something similar.

I don't think I want to attempt to switch out for a manual steering rack. I don't even know if there are any out there or not, but that sounds like a lot of work.

Is there a way to simply reduce drag from the pump? That way, I can keep the same belt (instead of needing a shorter one.)

I also think the power steering pump has to be there for the belt to keep running the water pump as well.

On my radiator fan, I left the pulley, I simply removed the fan blade from it. I don't think I can do the same thing on the power steering pump.

Any thoughts on this?

I have seen on this forum references to power steering removal, but not a vehicle somebody has done it on yet!

I converted one about 25 years ago on a new Chevy Citation hybrid car project I worked on, but that was along time ago :confused: Making my memory fuzzier still, it wasn't my design, I was just machining the parts from sketches, did the bench and line pressure testing, fitting and assembly.

I know for a fact it's possible, if I remember right we used a 12v motor rated for continuous duty mated via lovejoy-type coupler, but if I remember right the amperage draw was not insignificant... in my view the only reason to use such an item was to have power steering assist when operating in EV mode.

I know you aren't going to do this, but having the above experience, I'd still advise you find a donor truck and scavenge all the tid-bits to make it manual steer. Surely less trouble than building your own electric power steering, but definately not as cool :cool:

good luck Ben :thumbup:

I was thinking that if a person was to do all the trouble to make an actual HYBRID pickup truck, THEN it WOULD be worth converting everything to either manual or electric.

That way, the truck would behave the same whether the engine was on or not, you were using the electric drive, or not, etc.

I removed my power steering belt a few weeks ago but the weather has gotten colder at about the same time so it's hard to tell. The car does pull better uphill though and i run an inch or two less on the vac gauge at cruise speed so i should see an improvement. If i get anywhere near my summertime high (low??) of 4.2L/100k then i'd say it's a worthwhile job removing the power steering belt. Don't need it with my tires at 55psi anyway....

ollie

bennelson -

It's on my todo list. From a reversible mod POV, I know I can cut the lines between the PS pump and the PS rack and re-connect them together with barbed hose fittings like this :

Husky Hose Repair Kit - HDA40700AV at The Home Depot
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...0&d=1225222275

I know this will work, because it has been done on saturnfans.com for performance. In that situation, they also delete the PS Pump for cutting weight and get a different length accessory belt. I don't want to do that. I only want to take the PS out of the equation. Here is a picture of what I mean :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1225222989

What I would really like to do is not even cut the lines. I want to see if I can find some fittings to match here :

Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies - Home Page

The idea would be to disconnect the hoses from the PS Pump and and close the loops with the fittings (keeping fluid in the hoses). This would make the PS rack into a "closed loop" manual steering. I would do the same for the PS pump (I would also need to get a short hose to go with the fittings).

If I post pictures of the PS pump connections, can you help me identify the parts/fittings in the Pegasus catalog?!?!?!

CarloSW2

Ive mentioned this before. On my spec miata i pulled the pump, all lines, and belts, and capped the rack off with a bolt after putting just a half cup of fluid inside it. You want to keep it wet and lubricated, but not full so as to be over pressurized.

pegasucks is a local company, good stuff, but usually $$.

feel free to PM me with ?'s

I've mentioned "Armstrong Steering" before too- just pull the belt and be ready for increased steering effort at parking speeds. On the go, it's alright.

I did it on my E30 bmw. Its worth about 7-10% or 2-3mpg in my case. I removed the belt, pump, hoses and drained the rack before caping it. Its very important to drain the rack. The PS fluid does not lubricated the rack mechanism. Its lubricated with grease. Theres also very little chance that you can actually remove all the PS fluid in the first place. If you seal it up the inside will remain coated with PS fluid for many many years. 'Looping' the PS lines with fluid inside is a bad idea. It will increase the amount of friction inside the mechanism and make it that much harder to turn the wheel. Imagine stirring a cup full of PS fluid or a cup full of air. Which one is easier?

Underdrive pulleys
 

You could use underdrive pulleys to slow down all of your belt accessories. They make them for most V8's, I'm not sure if they are available for 4 cylinders. They use them to free up horsepower in racing applications, which is normally at higher RPM. An underdrive pulley on a water pump might not be so cool on a car with a lot of grill block though. You might be able to just put a larger pulley on the power steering pump and get a longer belt.

Couldn't a bypass valve be installed to turn off power steering at command?

Wow! Lots of ideas.

That Citation I mentioned, never had the bugs all worked out before I left that company. The boss intended that Chevy to be the beta unit for a mass produced or retrofit car, and as you say Ben, the same steering weather it was in ICE or EV mode, as a requirement

Remember that older manual steer cars often used less caster (I think the metro does, too), which decreases low speed steering effort for ease of parking. I wouldn't get carried away, and I'd reduce the caster, keeping at least 3-5 degrees for higher speed stability.

You could also slightly increase the diameter of the steering wheel, too.

A bypass for power steering? Sounds like a cool idea!

A few weeks ago, I fixed my gas laundry dryer. The problem was the coil that electronically opens and closes the gas valve.

Couldn't a similar electronic valve be used to open and close a bypass for power-steering?

Push a button, or flip a switch, and have power steering at will!

manual rack & pinion...
 

I removed the power steering unit (everything) from the 1992 Caravan I'm putting a 1.6L turbo diesel in. I replaced it with a new manual rack. It steers well at rest because the gears are different - 3 turns lock to lock for a P.S. and 4 turns for a manual. Here are some photos and description of what I did... half way down the page.

VW GTD :: View topic - 1.6L TD in a Dodge Caravan

my car has electric power steering, so does the S2000. shove one of those units in your car and be happy. it works when the key is in run mode, even with the engine off (though it pauses for the first turn for some reason)

Yah OK I'll just run out there and git oneuh them.

well if you want electric power steering.... its a heck of a lot better solution than fitting an electric motor to a power steering pump. that will draw power all the time, the honda system only uses how much it needs when it needs it.

Does the ecu control it? I'd wager Honda's price for that pump and associated parts is more than I've got in my whole car! :eek:

Ford has electric pw steering too and will extend it to nearly all of their cars in the next couple of years because they want to be the leader in economy

Maybe some kind of bypass valve to lighten up the steering, coupled with an A/C compressor clutch pulley. Flip a switch, and it freewheels the clutch and pulley, while releasing pressure on the pump so it turns more freely?

I've read about a few people who just removed their power steering belt and from the lack of posts about any problems they don't seem to be having any. Of course that doesn't mean there haven't been any complications, maybe it only means they didn't post about it.

Still.... I want to try it and I've been reading up a little. I didn't think much about different ratios or castor settings until I read this thread though. I had an 82 Prelude that turned wonderfully in parking lots and on the roads without any power steering.

Are there any mechanical issues that could come of a "power steering belt delete" and should one be worried about doing anything other than simply disconnecting the belt? I understand the weight savings that could occur if the PS pump was removed but I haven't looked closely at mine to see if it can just unbolt.

I'm talking about a 2000 Civic....

Thanks for rejuvenating this. Bypass valves? No merit whatsoever. :rolleyes:

I drove my '74 Nova for years with "Armstrong steering" before I replaced the bad hose and put a belt on it. There was no ill effect at all.

My first Escort - Manual steering.
My first Road legal car - 1979 Plymouth Volare, 225 /6, Power steering without power.
First pickup truck - 1988 Mazda B2200 - Manual steering.
Every Civic I've ever owned/driven except 2 - Either Manual steering OEM, manual steering converted, or OEM power without power.

Cool.... when I first read about it I was like GENIOUS! ...ha ha.

I think I might give it a try because it's always better to have that natural feel and if it drains on the engine a little less then why not?

As for underdrive pulleys.... the only advantage I've read about with those is they're being lightweight, most of them are less than a third the weight of an OEM pulley. And yes, I do get the concept of an underdriven accessory if anyone was going to try to flame me for that.

Frank, you had a 74 Nova? Man, I loved my dad's 76! Awesome car! The 305 engine ran like an absolute champ.

I put a '63 283 that I'd overhauled into it. Red, 2 door hatch, new chrome sidepipes. Wish I still had it. :(

Wow !! I did something very similar - I remaned a 65' 283, punching it .030" over, put some "Power Pack" Chevy heads on it... They had 10.5:1 and high turbulence runners that maxed out at about 6,000 rpm. I put it in my 73' Nova SS with manual steering, the Muncie Rock Crusher tans, and put 15R78 x 225 mud & Snow on the rear with I think a 2.73 rear end... Got almost 30 mpg with that FAST ride.

When some sleeping guy pulled in front of the SS, I put the engine in a 68' corvette convertible with 4:11 rear end. I allowed my girlfriend to drive it once because with those heads, she could not blow it up. That Vette also had a manual trans with manual steering gear. BIG steering wheel, though.
Got 25 mpg with that…

On my now diesel 92' Caravan, no regrets pulling the power steering rack & pinion and putting a reman manual in. Its 4:1 rather than the 3:1 of the power.

Mine had the PP heads too, and a 2bbl, but IIRC 20mpg or low low 20's was all she would give. :confused:

Yeah, forgot to mention that little 2 bbl carb. :-) Did you have a tall rear end and tall tires too ? I drove very conservative to get the 30 mpg.

Yes.

the delete does work. The power needed in tight spaces is worth the extra fuel, and i did learn there is a draw even in a straight line. A manual steering version of the same car, revealed the difference.

I didn't think you be happy with the drag of the ps unit w/o the fluid under pressure, plus the wrong gear ratio - kind of like trying to start from a light in second gear - yes, it will work but not feel very good.

You might find a manual rack & pinion for your car :-)

Pulled the pump/belt/expansion bottle etc. Took one of the rubber hoses and just looped the input to the output of the rack (about 2 feet of tube/hoses). Put enough fluid in to keep it flowing but left enough air in the hoses for expansion. Parking in the grocery store is a workout but up to 40mgg.
97 Mazda Protege.

Cool. I guess what I'm missing is..... ...how the heck does it flow when you remove the belt?

I get leaving fluid in it, so it doesn't get ugly inside, just.... what am I missing?

I just turned my power steering into a manual steering box. The act of turning the wheels forces the fluid out/back. That is how the pump was helping you turn. Now that you supply the turning force you are pushing some of that fluid out the outlet and back through the inlet. It is how the power steering assist is setup inside the rack. Reading this site and others it mostly states to make sure you have some loop from the output of the rack (input to the pump) back to the input side of the rack (output of pump). If you just cap off the rack then you really have to work harder to turn the wheel.

So just disconnecting the belt doesn't mean you have free turning steering with no interference from the pump? The pump is no longer getting it's energy so it's much like the engine is off and you're pushing against the same kind of resistance? That seems insane to me because without considerable motion power steering systems with no pumping action are WAY hard to turn. It's not even close to being safe to operate a vehicle that way.

What you're proposing is that someone could remove the interference from the pump by simply bypassing it (whether that involved removing the whole power steering system or not) by just creating a loop of sorts with a long piece of hose, wherein power steering fluid would flow slowly or moderately through what is left of the power steering system. Or have I still missed something?

Yes,
I pulled the belt first. I drove for a month or two before I removed the pump and did the loopback. It got a lot harder to steer when I pulled the belt. I can not really say that it got that much easier when I did the loopback (Removing pump and resovior). However my PU truck does not have power steering and It doesn't feel any harder to steer the Protege then the PU.

Seems like it's almost not worth it then.... I may just have to try it and see just how the steering feels. It's been a while since I felt what it was like with the engine off. :-)

You can always put the belt back on if you don't like the feel.

This is just my thinking: (Only been at this for 6 months so----)
1) I have a 5.5 mile commute with 12 stoplights. I don't get above 35 miles per hour.
2) For me to hypermile it will not buy me much to do aero stuff since I never travel fast.
3) I need to work on weight loss for the car. Remember physics inertia is mass times velocity. I need to loose mass to make it easier to accelerate.
4) Rotating mass is worth about 10 times regular vehicle weight. (my rule of thumb)
5) The PS pump weighs about 15 pounds, maybe 5 pounds is rotating. So pulling out the PS pump/hoses saved me 10lbs non-rotating and 5 rotating (equivalent to 50lbs). So in my mind I removed 60 lbs of inertia from the vehicle.
Now I do the AC, lightweight crankshaft pulley, lightweight rims/tires, smallest alternator and I hope to start really affecting the gas mileage in city driving.

Next to the power train, the largest concentration of mass on your car is the glass. If you could get away withthin plastic sheeting like Jeep uses for the side/rear windows on the entry level, you'll save a ton of weight. The windshield is another story - you want it.

There are two formulae for calculating rotating weight. There is one for vehicle weight, and one for engine/accessory weight.

I believe vehicle weight (rims, tires, etc.) is 7:1... engine weight is significantly less, because of the way that engines rev up and down. It's something like 5:1, IIRC.

Don't quote me on those numbers, though. Calling it 10:1 is very optimistic.