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xpedro01 01-16-2015 03:37 PM

Project: Nissan Leaf drivetrain into '02 Honda Insight
 
5 Attachment(s)
[ Admin edit: see xpedro01's past project, the AeroSprite -- aero & mechanically modified Austin Healey Sprite ]

My current project is a big one for me. I was the successful bidder on a wrecked 2013 Nissan Leaf and I am working on putting its e-integrated power train and the 400+ pounds of battery into the hull of an insight Honda-2002.

This will be about 1000 pounds lighter than the leaf and with the slightly better CD (.25 vs .29) should give over 125 miles of range. Top speed will be in the low 80's, because of rpm limits on the motor of 10k. On the leaf it is 90+ but this will be slightly smaller tires.

If I am successful, i will do posts on this.

The hull I am getting is in Washington and is now ready for the trip to Kansas. I expect the project to take at least all winter. Here is my plan for the leaf battery mounting:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1421440417

Here are the batteries:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1421440417

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1421440417

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1421440417

And here is the engine and front end stuff replacement.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1421440417

It uses a 108 HP liquid cooled motor. Since there are over 150,000 of them now roving around the world with no big bugs, I feel fairly safe with this layout. It is also much cheaper since I have most problems, like 14 volt charger, 360 volt charger, 108 HP 3phase inverter, 3 phase air conditioner motor with separate inverter and is a heat pump (Hot and Cold), + a gear reduction and differential that can handle the torque of a 100+HP motor x7.8 reduction.

Daox 01-16-2015 03:42 PM

Wow, quite the ambitious project. We'd love to hear updates as you go about the conversion.

redpoint5 01-16-2015 04:33 PM

These are the projects I love to hear about. I can only imagine all the figuring you have been doing in regards to feasibility. Sounds fun!

vskid3 01-16-2015 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpedro01 (Post 463999)
This will be about 1000 pounds lighter than the leaf and with the slightly better CD (.25 vs .29) should give over 125 miles of range.

Don't forget that the Insight has less frontal area as well. Can't wait to see what the final range is.

minispeed 01-16-2015 09:33 PM

Wow you stole my idea! As the owner of a 2015 leaf and an old mini cooper s I've already started playing around with maybe gutting the leaf near the end of it's life cycle and putting it in the mini. Of coarse that would not be a big aero benefit if any, think CD around 0.5 but with a tiny frontal area. It would be for low weight and performance, 1400-1600 lbs I'd guess, and I'd also drive the rear wheels!

I was also planning a similar layout to yours for the batteries, glad to see that the big pack is 36 in since the mini is only 48 in wide. I'd probably put the 2 8 module packs in the front and the 2 small packs under the seats.

I've also looked at the iMiev and smart. They have the advantage of already being rwd I may be able to just drop the subframe and weld it in instead of adopting something. There are many rwd conversions for the mini to use.


PS I've gone 143 miles on a single charge, at the end it was all babying it but for the first 90 miles it was just slow careful city driving. I bet you could break 200 if the battery is in ok shape.

California98Civic 01-16-2015 10:06 PM

Cool. Subscribed.

UltArc 01-17-2015 01:49 AM

Subscribed. Like California, posting to show my interest- excited to see the results!

Xist 01-17-2015 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minispeed (Post 464049)
Of coarse that would not be a big aero benefit if any, think CD around 0.5

You can fix that! :D

xpedro01 01-17-2015 11:20 AM

XIST: According to ECOMODDERS chart, the CDA is 5.00 for the insight and 6.94 for the LEAF. To me, that meant the insight should go 1.38 times as far,since the weight of the leaf is about 1.5 times as heavy.
The hull is finally on its 1440 mile trek. It should be here within a week.

xpedro01 01-17-2015 11:51 AM

MINISPEED; From what I have seen of the insides of the leaf, it should be a long time before it wears out. It is built like a truck. Since they are being sold in 34 countries, to make one size fit all requires that they be very tough. The battery case ( which I will not be using) weighs 200 pounds and is pressurized.
I got my leaf by bidding on "SALVAGE NISSAN LEAF" on the internet. On my 4th attempt, I WON. Now I will just need to spend months playing in the garage. My biggest problem, I think, is the axle shafts, as the LEAF is 4 inches wider than the Honda. You may not have that problem with the Mini. Keep researching.

minispeed 01-17-2015 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpedro01 (Post 464107)
MINISPEED; From what I have seen of the insides of the leaf, it should be a long time before it wears out. It is built like a truck. Since they are being sold in 34 countries, to make one size fit all requires that they be very tough. The battery case ( which I will not be using) weighs 200 pounds and is pressurized.
I got my leaf by bidding on "SALVAGE NISSAN LEAF" on the internet. On my 4th attempt, I WON. Now I will just need to spend months playing in the garage. My biggest problem, I think, is the axle shafts, as the LEAF is 4 inches wider than the Honda. You may not have that problem with the Mini. Keep researching.

For me "wear out" means the battery degrades to the point that I can't do my 90 mile round trip in the winter without stopping for a 20 min plus charge every day. I'm fine stopping for a charge on the days that it's freakish cold or very windy/snowy as they aren't that often but if I can't make the trip every day in the winter under 1hr 20min then I'll consider it worn out for my needs. I need 80% of the charge to make it with heat on and a safety net most cold days. In -19C I used 80% without heat at 90-95km/hr. I have 120v at work, but it's not officially approved. In the summer I can do round trip on 1 charge. If my wife and I have a third child then we may need something bigger then.

Then I'll factor in the cost of a replacement battery vs. a newer car, and factor in that I really want to transplant the leaf internals to the mini. Seeing your finished project will just make me want to do it even more. I haven't asked at the dealer myself but I have been told by other leaf owners that Nissan Canada doesn't have a battery replacement price like the $5500 US price. Nissan US says it's selling it at a loss and an original first year leaf owner I know here has his battery down to 86% in just under 4 years which is pretty much bang on the Nissan estimate of 80% by 5 years so I don't think they'll be doing replacement batteries at a loss here.


As far as width of the car I'd be willing to run flares and race minis have flares that go out as far as 10 or 12 inches on each side. I would want to do a minimum of 4 but if I need to it's nice to know that I can.



I doubt that the axle shafts will present a big problem, 4 inches, 2 per side, probably a lot less wheel travel on the insight than the leaf so shortening them probably won't be a big deal.

From the outside when I had my leaf and insight parked side by side last night it looked like height was the limiting factor. Of coarse the Nissan will have a 2plus pedestrian safety gap on the hood and I think the top cover can come off as some user have put a second charger there in it's place.

You could also put the drivetrain in the back of the insight!

Welcome to Mini Tec

http://www.superfastminis.com/Galler...LLERY/FI81.JPG


Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 464087)
You can fix that! :D

Oh yes the wheels have already been turning..... I would think that I'd chop the floor and go 100% flat from the rear subframe forward and a flat panel for the rear. Air flow needs through the front would be a lot less and I may be able to cover the full grill or have a small opening with room to vent it to a good place. Nice rear lip or partial kamm back. I would want to avoid a boat tail since I would still want it to look classic. If money wasn't an issue I'd get a pick up frame and add a nice tear drop custom top on the back.

mikeyjd 01-17-2015 02:06 PM

Epic project! I look forward to the results.

e*clipse 01-20-2015 10:05 PM

Very cool project! If my Insight motor ever wears out, this is it's next configuration. :)

- E*clipse

BTW, you can buy NEW Leaf batteries - I have a set for my EV conversion project.

xpedro01 04-10-2015 11:19 AM

It is April 10, 2015 and I feel I am approaching the half way point on the conversion of putting all the Nissan stuff into the Insight. The 48 cell pack installed differently than I expected. It had to go outside, but behind the seat as shown above. It is now where the gas tank used to be. Because I am 88 and live alone I elected to bolt the remaining 200 pounds of battery in the passenger compartment. My 180 will give a side to side balance and the car will not be side heavy.
The NISSAN floating power train mount fits the Honda ok. Heavy aluminum castings have ready made holes that match the rubber mounts at the back of the leaf and 1/2" x 6" number 8 bolts hold up the rear portion of the floating power train mount.
The 2 front mounts use the same stiff 5" mounts as the rear. For this I fabricated a u shaped hangar of 0.25 x1.5 bar stock that fastens under the mount and goes up over a large frame member that holds the bumper. No aluminum was weakened. I am now ready to lift the power train and attempt to install it. Two very large items lie ahead. One is adapting the axle shafts, and the the monster is wiring. I still have hopes of getting it to run by the end of the summer. My body is very weak, but I really am enjoying it------xpedro01

MetroMPG 04-10-2015 11:27 AM

Great to read that this is happening, Tom!

If I lived in your neck of the woods, I'd be there to lend a hand just to watch the progress.

Insight for life 04-10-2015 11:43 AM

Agreed! I would be happy to help If I were a few states closer. Good job on the progress, It sounds like it's starting to take shape. You will have a very enviable ride once you complete this!

Daox 04-10-2015 12:03 PM

Thanks for the update! Would it be possible to get some pictures of the work?

CigaR007 04-10-2015 12:34 PM

Looks like an amazing build !

California98Civic 04-10-2015 12:37 PM

"... because I am 88 and live alone..." that line just made you a kind of demigod in my mind. Great work. I can't wait to see how it comes out. The light weight and lower cd and cda should make for greater range. Thanks for the update.

miscrms 04-12-2015 01:59 AM

Awesome project! Very inspiring! I'm planning something very similar soon, transplanting a complete Leaf drivetrain into a 1973 Saab Sonett. A bit more quirky, but even lighter and slightly lower CdA than the Gen 1 Insight!

I'll try to start a new thread to discuss, but anyway here's what I've come up with so far in case its of interest in the mean time.

Host vehicle acquired last month, this particular one was converted to a 96V DC electric system back in '90s and is still in drivable working order. It also had quite a bit of restoration work already done, a great head start all around!
http://priuschat.com/attachments/photo-jpg.77354/

Based on some preliminary modeling I've done using the "Excel Dyno" and bringing in some real world measured wheel torque from a Leaf, it could be quite a kick in the pants, in addition to pretty darn efficient. The far right column is the estimated performance of the Leaf drivetrain in the Leaf body copied into the scratch space. Seems relatively accurate from what I gather. The third column from the right shows the estimated performance when transplanted into the Sonett, which should be fairly similar to the Insight I would think. Two big caveats, the way the Leaf is measured probably does not include the controller's torque throttling for the first 1-2 seconds from a stop, and even if you get around that keeping all that torque applied to the pavement in a light FWD vehicle will be challenging to say the least ;)
http://priuschat.com/attachments/lea...et2-jpg.77400/

I've also done some preliminary CAD work to check for fit of the main leaf components as best I could estimate their dimensions:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7633/...12bd9fa5_b.jpg

I'm also pouring through the factory service manuals for the Leaf to try and figure out the minimum set of components that will allow the drive train (with the primary VCM controller still running the show) to be fully functional.

I've started documenting some of those findings in this thread on mynissanleaf, but not getting a whole lot of input there yet. Not sure yet how thrilled they are about the idea of someone chopping one up ;)

I've started watching the salvage auctions and have a friend lined up with a license to buy there, so hopefully I'll have a donor on the way in the next few months.

Look forward to following your progress, and the best of luck!

Rob

Xist 04-13-2015 03:11 AM

Miscrms, your project seems pretty awesome, too! What about creating a build thread?

Daox 04-13-2015 09:52 AM

I agree, a build thread would be great.

foxgrockefeller 04-13-2015 02:42 PM

I'm very interested in this and am curious if you know the weight of the leaf drivetrain compared to an HF drivetrain in both of my CRX(1990 & 1991). Trying to do the math on my estimated weight after conversion and 0-60 speeds etc. I seen the leaf battery weighs 600 pounds. My HF weighed 1967lbs from the factory.... Also I would be very interested in helping you with this project as I'm 2 hours east of you in Independence, MO. I'm certain the hands on experience would improve the speed at which I could convert my own vehicle. Feel free to PM me and we can exchange contact info. Looking forward to your progress and wish you luck.

miscrms 04-13-2015 02:57 PM

As I understand a fair amount of the weight of the Leaf pack is in the case itself. I've seen the total pack weight put at about 660lbs.

The battery modules are reported to weigh a little over 8 lbs each, with 48 modules in a pack. Someone selling the half of the pack that's all in one sub-pack with bus bars etc reported it weighed 210 lbs. I've also seen it stated that the complete battery plus controller weighs 480 lbs, though not sure if that includes the contactor box.

Rob

miscrms 04-13-2015 03:02 PM

On the other end, I've seen the 2011-12 motor only weight put at ~130 lbs, and the 2013+ motor plus reduction gear put at ~160lbs. For inverters I've seen 37lbs for 2011-12, and 33 lbs for 2013+. Charger ~60lbs for 2013+, haven't found a weight for 2011-12 but should less as 3.3kW vs. 6.6kW.

Hope that helps,
Rob

foxgrockefeller 04-13-2015 07:47 PM

So...
Leaf CRX
Motor + gear 160 motor & tranny 295lbs?
inverter 37 Full gas tank 95lbs?
charger 60 Spare + jack 40lbs?
Batteries 420
Total: 777 lbs 430 lbs
Net gain of = 347 lbs
Where else can weight be removed or how much would you expect the full leaf setup to increase over stock weight?

miscrms 04-14-2015 01:58 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, I'll definitely put a build thread up once I get into the real work :)

Fox your numbers look reasonable to me. Remember that you are taking the drive system out of a 3400-3600 lb vehicle and putting it in a <2000 lb vehicle. Sort of like putting a V8 in a civic ;) You could probably end up much closer to stock weight / performance with a more moderately sized motor / inverter / battery, it really depends on what you are going for.

Rob

elhigh 04-14-2015 04:05 PM

miscrms, being a fan of SAABs in general and Sonnets in particular, your project strikes me as bonkers, heretical and fascinating. I look forward to seeing how it develops.

I learned to drive in a 96, four-on-the-tree and the freewheeler handle tied off in the pulled-out position by a length of baler twine. That old car was a moose, I loved it.

foxgrockefeller 04-14-2015 07:35 PM

I want to keep up with xpedro01...Where are you guy :)
Anyhow I want a car this light for a very fast yet efficient car with some range to commute 50miles round trip to work. At least that is the mission. I'm trying to decide what to do with my 2nd CRX since it needs so much work. Thinking about scrapping it. If the body didn't need so much help I'd just use it to convert.

rmay635703 04-16-2015 01:24 PM

This is the best project ever!

I have wanted to put a RWD MIEV drivetrain in the rear boot of either my insight or my fathers ZX40 for some time, (while having a FWD gasser up front as a hybrid)

This thread provides inspiration, you are truly from the great generation!

minispeed 04-24-2015 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 475710)
This is the best project ever!

I have wanted to put a RWD MIEV drivetrain in the rear boot of either my insight or my fathers ZX40 for some time, (while having a FWD gasser up front as a hybrid)

This thread provides inspiration, you are truly from the great generation!

I've thought of the same thing for my mini. Smart ED is also a good candidate, similar range and performance with a smaller footprint for the battery so it may be more compact than the iMiev. I've checked the smart gas rear subframe looks like it would come out with suspension pretty easily. iMiev looks like if you used the whole subframe you'd have to fabricate top mounts for the struts. However the smart doesn't have the chademo quick charge if that matters to you.

http://www.itibitismart.com/photos/e...moved_0001.JPG

xpedro01 04-24-2015 04:04 PM

9 Attachment(s)
This is Daox posting for xpedro01. I'm on his mailing list for email updates on the project and I asked Tom if I could share. He agreed, so enjoy!

============================


Hi, this is Tom Shrimplin (xpedro01). Since I have had requests for pictures (and progress) I decided to send updates to those requests. This first one merely deals with the Nissan parts that will need to be transferred. NEXT week I plan to show where they will go. The third episode should show my progress to date.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

1. This is what I bid on-front end damage.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

2. It looked like the power train was not damaged, so I took a chance.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

3. A very good neighbor with a bobcat made it easy to work on. Note size of battery.




http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

04. Nissan layout.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

05. This part was under the rear seat.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

06. This group of modules was under the front seat.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

07. These fit under foot between front and rear seat.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

08. The heavy case (200 pounds-18 gauge) two halves were glued and I could not separate them. A cut off disk was used to remove the top half.



http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1429905673

09. The Leaf battery was air tight and slightly pressurized. I personally think a flood damaged car would have a good battery. External pins were gold plated.

ME_Andy 04-24-2015 04:32 PM

That's awesome. Buy a salvaged car and flip it over... much easier to work on now. ;)

xpedro01 04-27-2015 06:17 PM

5 Attachment(s)
This is Daox posting for xpedro01. I'm on his mailing list for email updates on the project and I asked Tom if I could share. He agreed, so enjoy!

============================

This deals with the battery placement in the honda. My copy of the encyclopedia came from Britain, so it looks different. Note that behind the seat it looks like there is a 12 inch vertical beam across the car. It is not a beam. It goes up 12 inches, then goes back on top of the frame rails all the way to the rear of the car. Behind the rear axle, it drops down a foot to make a place for the spare tire. All of the honda electronics and battery sit above this level in a 10 x20 x30 aluminum box.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430172793



The Nissan large 96kg 180 volt pack is now mounted under that floor, where the gas tank used to be. Its center of gravity is only 10.5 inches above the ground.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430172793



There are 2 of these 60 volt 70 pound packages bolted to the passenger side floor. They are 19x14x6 inches, stacked they are about even with the floor that goes to the rear.
These packs have a CG of 12 inches. All 400 pounds will be a foot lower than the honda was. When I am in the drivers seat, my 180 almost counters the batteries, giving a better side to side than the original.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430172793

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430172793



These 2 - 35 pound-30 volt packs go where the passengers feet would be.
Because it presented itself, I elected to make it a one person car with a place to lie down and take a nap. Since I excel at that and am much too old (88), a pad to sack out on sounds good. It also relieves me of any liabity of having a passenger. I have used RV parks for many years---and they all have 240volt 50 amp outlets.

Next episode will cover mounting the power train up front.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430172793

xpedro01 04-28-2015 12:37 PM

6 Attachment(s)
This is Daox posting for xpedro01. I'm on his mailing list for email updates on the project and I asked Tom if I could share. He agreed, so enjoy!

============================

The power train still in the car. It took me a week to remove it.
There was always another connecter to unhook. The plastic containers are because I cannot stand very long so I work sitting a lot.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996


This is the power train mounted on the sub frame.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996



NOTE the sub frame is rubber mounted. The large pads are where the power train attaches. This may be why they claim it is quiet.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996



Two more days were spent removing the axle shafts. Nissan recommends using a slide hammer type gear puller.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996



Here it is sitting in place. .25 x 1.5 inch bar stock was used to hang the sub frame from the hex tube bumper mount frame member. Additional pressure on that connection is only applied in reverse. Normal rotation applies torque to the rear mount.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996




Please note the gold plated connector receivers on the Chademo receptacle.
Next will be connecting the Leaf power train to the Honda front wheels.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430238996

xpedro01 05-04-2015 09:42 AM

custom axles
 
2 Attachment(s)
This is Daox posting for xpedro01. I'm on his mailing list for email updates on the project and I asked Tom if I could share. He agreed, so enjoy!

============================

I spent an entire week trying to figure what method to use for connecting the Leaf power train to the Insight front wheels. Because of the case hardening of the leaf axles I decided no local (we are a college town) machine shop could properly handle resplining the leaf axle. Here is what my first attempt will be. I have cut the axles with a cut off disk. It took almost an hour to make a cut.


http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430746824

The center of the Leaf axle is soft enough to machine, so I hope to have my machinist;
1. Drill into the leaf axle a hole to allow an interference (press) fit for an entrance of 1 inch.
2. With a piece of 1.5 inch shaft 4" long, drill half way the leaf diameter and the other half being the Insight shaft diameter, again being press fit.
3. Press this sleeve over the Leaf axle. It will extend 1" BEYOND beyond the bored part.
4. Now press the Honda shaft into the sleeve and the bored Leaf axle. The weak spot will be where the sleeve ends on the Honda end.
5. Weld it or whatever he suggests.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1430746824


If this works and the tires slipping provides the fuse, then "problem solved". If the axle breaks, Then I will have to go with the "big boys" that make axles for a living and have proper shaft material. In my next note, I will report on the outcome. If you have any suggestions, please Holler. xpedro01.

MetroMPG 05-04-2015 09:59 AM

fuse
 
Quote:

If this works and the tires slipping provides the fuse, then "problem solved".
Funny analogy.

With my 48v/400A electric conversion, I was never in danger of blowing any mechanical "fuses". The Leaf is a different story.

xpedro01 05-11-2015 01:07 PM

2 Attachment(s)
This is Daox posting for xpedro01. I'm on his mailing list for email updates on the project and I asked Tom if I could share. He agreed, so enjoy!

============================

The pieces have all been to the machinist, he has done his good work and I have one installed in the car. He said he got a good press fit. It took 7 tons of pressure to install the Honda axle.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1431363976



NOW LOOK below!!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1431363976

I think I have found my first big mistake (if I don't count starting this project).
This shows the Leaf power train is Too far forward and will not permit the steering to go lock to lock. It will probably take me several weeks to correct. It will require removing and relocating the small anti sway bar, and removing the sub frame and re working it a little. I just did not notice that and was so happy the way things fit in. I do have room to do what is necessary, but the project could take lots of time--weeks, at the speed I travel. I will keep you all posted. This was not in the schedule. xpedro01.

retepsnikrep 05-13-2015 02:12 AM

This is a very interesting project. Nice work.

If any of us at Insight Central can help with tech stuff lets us know by posting any questions over there or we might not see them.

I will put a link to this thread on IC,

Regards Peter

miscrms 05-13-2015 04:17 PM

Sorry about your setback Tom, happens to the best us! :) Looking forward to seeing how your drive shafts do once its sorted out.

Here's the progress on my end:

Ran first test with car partially disassembled, so far so good. Removed pretty much the whole center console, dash, and airbag system. Quite a few DTCs, but still ran, drove and charged fine.
Re-using complete Leaf Drive System (w/VCM) - Page 2 - DIY Electric Car Forums
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8898/...a16578ac_c.jpg

Managed to get my battery out, ready to start rewiring. I bought an extra set of the brackets / bus bars for the larger 24 module sub-pack, and plan to disassemble all the smaller packs to populate so that I end up with 2 identical 24 module packs. Voltage and BMS connections will still be identical to stock, but two big packs should work better in my car than one big one and a bunch of smaller ones. Still need to take final measurements to confirm, but that's my plan anyway.
DIY Electric Car Forums - View Single Post - "New" EV: 1973 Saab Sonett Conversion
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5343/...2e9c43c6_c.jpg

Best of luck getting your mount straightened out,
Rob


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