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96sentra 09-09-2010 08:22 PM

Question very high MPG cars in the Garage (60-80 mpg Honda Civic?)
 
Hi,

I am a long time lurker with a manual 96 nissan sentra 1.6L in the 49mpg tank average range.

I decided to post a question about some cars in the Garage section of this website that I am not sure how they get such high mpg. I have made many mods to my sentra and find it very hard to break 50mpg

I wonder about PaleMelanesian PaleCivic: 1996 Honda Civic DX Sedan who states that he gets 60-80+mpg with his mods being Grille Block Tires 60psi
Scangauge Mobil1 5w20. I don't see how this is possible given that I have done the same mods and much more and am still stuck at 49mpg, what is PaleMelanesian doing that I am not since we have very simmilar cars?

Also rtrt2889 2003 Toyota Camry LE 3.0L engine claims 83.81 lifetime mpg with last 90 day average of 220.84, that is just a mistake right?

I am very interested in the PaleCivic, how does he do it? Is it because of Honda's lean burn? How can I get passed 49mpg in my 96 Sentra?

Angmaar 09-09-2010 09:18 PM

The main things that influence your MPGs are the hypermiling techniques you use.

Also some of the crazy high MPGs are a mistake. Such as the Camry you mentioned.

autoteach 09-09-2010 09:30 PM

p+g amd EOC.

VegasDude 09-09-2010 10:47 PM

90% of your gains will not be made with car mods unless you are radically changing the bodywork. You need to change your entire attitude about driving. On my way to work, the highest speed at which I used my brakes was 18 MPH. It would have been lower, but I don't get a full glide to zero MPH when approaching red lights since other drivers would go crazy.

PaleMelanesian isn't just a one tank wonder. Those who post extraordinary mileage and hang around to engage the community and explain how it's done are the real deal 99% of the time.

RobertSmalls 09-09-2010 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193352)
I am very interested in the PaleCivic, how does he do it? Is it because of Honda's lean burn? How can I get passed 49mpg in my 96 Sentra?

PaleCivic does not have lean burn, and I imagine that even if it did, PaleMelanesian wouldn't use it. (Right, PM?)

My car does have lean burn, and a very lean burn at that. It's also more aerodynamic, lighter, and a plug-in hybrid. Yet PM goes farther on a gallon by hypermiling.

Engine efficiency is at its highest at low RPMs and fairly high throttle. If you want maximum efficiency, keep the engine operating there, and shut off the engine when you don't need power. Like AutoTeach said, "EOC amd P&G".

Also, driving very slowly uses less energy per mile. Thus, low-speed P&G.

user removed 09-10-2010 06:37 AM

Pales average speed is fairly low, as Robert mentioned. He also drives a very specific route, that is long enough to somewhat mitigate the cold start enrichment. He also lives in a fairly warm area of the country, and I believe he uses a block heater.

His gas log covers many refills over years.

Also he uses a scan gauge.

He has been coached by one of the best hypermilers on the planet.

He drives in an area with hills that allow extended engine off gliding, with infinite MPG for those glides.

All of his techniques are capable of being duplicated, while others are specific to his location, climate, and terrain.

regards
Mech

euromodder 09-10-2010 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193352)
I am a long time lurker with a manual 96 nissan sentra 1.6L in the 49mpg tank average range.

By all means, that's already an excellent mileage with a gasoline engine.

Quote:

I have made many mods to my sentra and find it very hard to break 50mpg
It took a while to break 50 mpg in my diesel ...

Quote:

what is PaleMelanesian doing that I am not since we have very simmilar cars?
And driving style .

Check his fuel log for some pointers, it didn't come at once, nor by accident ;)
1996 Honda Civic DX Sedan Gas Mileage (PaleCivic) - EcoModder.com

Quote:

Also rtrt2889 2003 Toyota Camry LE 3.0L engine claims 83.81 lifetime mpg with last 90 day average of 220.84, that is just a mistake right?
Yes.


What mods have you already done ?

96sentra 09-10-2010 07:56 AM

Thanks everyone

A couple quick questions,

"EOC amd P&G" thats Engine-off-Coast (which I do) and Pulse-and-Glide (which I do not)
what is amd? or is it just a typo for and?

Does this mean that P&G is more important than EOC in relative fuel savings? How do I do P&G without killing my left leg on the clutch?

Also Old Mechanic mentions "He has been coached by one of the best hypermilers on the planet." who is that person? How can I get a lesson


Thanks

skyl4rk 09-10-2010 08:23 AM

EOC is more effective that P&G, If you can EOC, do it.

50mpg is a great accomplishment, congratulations.

euromodder 09-10-2010 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193456)
"EOC amd P&G" thats Engine-off-Coast (which I do) and Pulse-and-Glide (which I do not)

Yes, yes.

Quote:

what is amd? or is it just a typo for and?
looks like it.

Quote:

Does this mean that P&G is more important than EOC in relative fuel savings? How do I do P&G without killing my left leg on the clutch?
P+G is EOC inbetween pulses, and has been shown to use less fuel than driving at a constant speed - if you can accelerate/pulse without using too much gas, that is.
The gains are to be made in the coasting phase.

euromodder 09-10-2010 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyl4rk (Post 193459)
EOC is more effective that P&G

Sure is, but it doesn't get you as far ;)

Phantom 09-10-2010 03:14 PM

There is always Pulse and EOC.

Piwoslaw 09-10-2010 04:43 PM

Pale is a cheater, he only enters every other fill up, but enters all the miles! Just kidding;)

As mentioned earlier, PM can account for every mile and every gallon in his log, and is glad to help other members.

Do I recall correctly that he is alternator-less?

RobertSmalls 09-10-2010 05:34 PM

No, the alternator is hooked up, it just spends so little time turning that it can't keep up with the car's electrical load, especially at night. Hence, it's grid charged a few times a week.

We should get Mr. Melanesian in on this conversation.

autoteach 09-10-2010 06:20 PM

amd was a mis type. As for easing your leg pains...

1st, its a 1.6 and doesn't have that tough of a clutch (although I have that big of a leg)

2nd, clutching into gear is necessary, clutching out of gear is not. Releasing drivetrain load with a careful throttle foot while keeping a very small load on the lever will get you into neutral with no damage to the synchros. I have driven all my manuals like this (especially going into a coast).

3rd, if you are EOC but not P&G, then you must only be coasting to stops. Combining the two strategies will yield gains. Finding the speed that your vehicle likes is also important. This is difficult if you dont have city or rural driving to do, as traffic can determine your ability to achieve these.


Things to try. Ditch the pass. mirror, if you dont want to do the antenna removal or relocate just bend it and reduce the frontal area of it as well as changing the profile of the antenna in relation to the air. There are a dozen more mods that you can make that cost nearly nothing.

Good job on the 50ish mpg, I never was able to do it.

96sentra 09-11-2010 11:15 AM

P&G with EOC
 
Wait, I don't understand how I would do a P&G with EOC



So I go to pulse to say 60mph, then I have to clutch, turn of the engine, and glide down to say 50mph

then reengage the clutch (which turns the engine back on), accelerate at full throttle (to minimize BSFC) to 60mph, then clutch and turn off the engine.

But that would kill my left leg with all that clutching. Is there a smarter way to P&G? I just don't understand how anyone actually does P&G in the real world (although the theory makes good sense)

How does Palemalenesian P&G?

Thanks

RobertSmalls 09-11-2010 01:15 PM

Right, P&G isn't the most practical thing in the world, and IMO you can't do it in traffic unless you're on hills that allow you to hold a roughly constant speed.

You've got the right idea, only instead of just dumping the clutch at 50mph, you should do a bump start: let the clutch pedal out for a quarter of a second, push it back in, apply throttle to rev match, then let the clutch out. It becomes very easy to do with practice.

If you have a hybrid, though, you can use the electric motor to restart the engine. It's only due to software limitations that I can't also have it rev-match for me.

96sentra 09-11-2010 01:52 PM

why rev match? if I leave the throttle fully open (to minimize BSFC) then the engine will start and go to the right rpm as fast as it can, and then start increasing rpm's as the speed goes from 50mph to 60mph

I guess I don't understand rev matching, can you please explain a little more?

Thanks
gm

euromodder 09-11-2010 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193648)
Wait, I don't understand how I would do a P&G with EOC

The glide is actually coasting engine off - just not coasting down to a stop, but to your prefered lower speed.

Quote:

So I go to pulse to say 60mph, then I have to clutch, turn of the engine, and glide down to say 50mph
Yes.

Quote:

then reengage the clutch (which turns the engine back on), accelerate at full throttle (to minimize BSFC) to 60mph, then clutch and turn off the engine.
Acceleration depends on what your car consumes when accelerating.
You shouldn't use too much in the pulse, or it isn't worthwhile.
Pulsing and gliding times are approx. equal - depends on the car though.

In mpg, you should accelerate at better than half your normal mpg for constant speed.

(In L/100km , you shouldn't go near double your normal fuel consumption for constant speed)

Quote:

But that would kill my left leg with all that clutching.
It's obviously a lot of work.

Quote:

Is there a smarter way to P&G? I just don't understand how anyone actually does P&G in the real world
Buy a prius and stay under 42mph.
It'll do it just by lifting and pressing down your right foot !


Driving technique: exploring 'Pulse and Glide' - MetroMPG.com

Piwoslaw 09-11-2010 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193648)
But that would kill my left leg with all that clutching.

Yes, it hurts the first few times... But once you start training you'll build up those muscles:D

autoteach 09-11-2010 04:54 PM

who is clutching out of gear for a coasting session? as I said earlier, you can slide it out of gear without any excitement. This will minimize wear and tear as well as your fatigue.

RobertSmalls 09-11-2010 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193673)
why rev match? if I leave the throttle fully open (to minimize BSFC) then the engine will start and go to the right rpm as fast as it can, and then start increasing rpm's as the speed goes from 50mph to 60mph

I guess I don't understand rev matching, can you please explain a little more?

Thanks
gm

Suppose 5th gear at 50mph corresponds to 2000RPM. If you bring the engine up to 2000RPM before you let out the clutch, you'll have a smooth ride and less wear on parts of your transmission and driveline. You should rev match every time you downshift or shift from N while the car is in motion.

VegasDude 09-14-2010 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193648)
Wait, I don't understand how I would do a P&G with EOC



So I go to pulse to say 60mph, then I have to clutch, turn of the engine, and glide down to say 50mph

then reengage the clutch (which turns the engine back on), accelerate at full throttle (to minimize BSFC) to 60mph, then clutch and turn off the engine.

But that would kill my left leg with all that clutching. Is there a smarter way to P&G? I just don't understand how anyone actually does P&G in the real world (although the theory makes good sense)

How does Palemalenesian P&G?

Thanks


A full throttle pulse doesn't sound right. Also, P+G from 60-50 is going to happen pretty fast, meaning your going to be doing a lot of work with your left foot. I don't think it will offer much of a gain over steady DWL at 55. Freeway P+G isn't easy unless you're going down a steady grade or have a more aerodynamic car.

Daox 09-14-2010 06:35 PM

I completely disagree (as would Pale I'm sure). P&G is how we both attain our high numbers, highway or city driving. Without it its very difficult to get that high of mileage without extensive mods or slowing waaaay down.

autoteach 09-14-2010 09:20 PM

I know my cost time with my probe I owned was considerable, and there were hills (not mountains) that I would pick up speed coasting over 65mph. An aero car with the right grades and gliding is going to make a difference at any speed. My blazer on the other hand doesn't cost anywhere, and there are big hills that I can't gain speed at all where I would with a car of any sort.

UFO 09-21-2010 03:15 PM

I noticed the Mercedes 240D as a high mileage leader in the garage. I think it's a bit deceptive to not count the vegetable oil fuel as part of the mpg calculation. Realistically without modification an automatic 240D is not going to exceed 30mpg. Along those lines my diesels make 100+mpg as well as I only burn petroleum diesel in a 50% ratio during the 4-5 winter months.

ShadeTreeMech 09-21-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sentra (Post 193648)
Wait, I don't understand how I would do a P&G with EOC



So I go to pulse to say 60mph, then I have to clutch, turn of the engine, and glide down to say 50mph

then reengage the clutch (which turns the engine back on), accelerate at full throttle (to minimize BSFC) to 60mph, then clutch and turn off the engine.

But that would kill my left leg with all that clutching. Is there a smarter way to P&G? I just don't understand how anyone actually does P&G in the real world (although the theory makes good sense)

How does Palemalenesian P&G?

Thanks

You can also just pull the thing out of gear without the clutch; use the gas pedal to ease the strain on the gear box then push it into neutral. WHen done right, it takes only the pressure of a single finger to push it out of gear, and doesn't harm the transaxle in any way.

Adding a fuel cut off switch to kill the fuel pump would be an easy mod and make it easier to kill the engine without using the key. Especially if your speedo is electronic controlled and dies without the key on, most modern cars are like this.

And as piwosalw said, your leg will get stronger :D

(BTW, don't start your glide phase if hills or traffic dictate it to be a bad idea.)

dieseleverything 09-29-2010 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UFO (Post 195223)
I noticed the Mercedes 240D as a high mileage leader in the garage. I think it's a bit deceptive to not count the vegetable oil fuel as part of the mpg calculation. Realistically without modification an automatic 240D is not going to exceed 30mpg. Along those lines my diesels make 100+mpg as well as I only burn petroleum diesel in a 50% ratio during the 4-5 winter months.

Eco also stands for economical. I don't pay for WVO, and over the years my processing unit had been paid off (from using the free fuel). My mileage (113 mpg) is based off of 113 miles per fossil-fuel/paid for/diesel gallon. So there is no deception if you read the facts.

My two tank system is the modification, just like a former gasoline car being turned into an all electric one.

Also, UFO I've been trying to figure how you get 153 mpg??

UFO 09-29-2010 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseleverything (Post 196516)
Eco also stands for economical. I don't pay for WVO, and over the years my processing unit had been paid off (from using the free fuel). My mileage (113 mpg) is based off of 113 miles per fossil-fuel/paid for/diesel gallon. So there is no deception if you read the facts.

My two tank system is the modification, just like a former gasoline car being turned into an all electric one.

Also, UFO I've been trying to figure how you get 153 mpg??

exactly the same way. My WVO is from recycled fryer oil, and the biodiesel is made with 17% by volume petroleum-derived methanol. I'm not sure of the facts you assert, as MPGe is generally perceived to be the energy required to move your vehicle, that's how realistic numbers can be compared regardless of the energy source.

In that same light, if you have Prius with a plug-in option, and you get 150mpg going to the store and back, you are failing to calculate the electricity from the grid used to boost the battery.

If I calculated the mileage for my Beetle the same way you do, I get 247 MPG. I think that is misleading.

Piwoslaw 10-13-2010 09:45 AM

That's why we should be counting the total amount of fuel poured into the tank(s), not just the fuel that came from a well.

Running on waste veggie oil is a good thing, but it should be accounted for in the fuel log, else you're comparing apples and oranges. If someone is running on gas with 15% alcohol, then should his fe be 15% better?

Daox 10-13-2010 09:58 AM

I agree with Piwoslaw.

dennyt 10-13-2010 12:56 PM

Agreed. It's admirable that you're using WVO, but you're still burning the same amount of energy, and producing the same amount of emissions. Claiming a MPG assuming WVO is exempt tells us nothing of the efficiency of your car, your route, or your driving techniques.

user removed 10-13-2010 02:01 PM

It's simple people.

Miles per gallon.

If you use a home made fuel, or otherwise acquire it for free, that does not change the quantity of fuel consumed.

Maybe you should talk about miles per penny, if you want to game the logs because you are getting free fuel.

If I suck fuel out of totalled cars my cost changes but my mileage would be the same unless the fuel was stale and it (the mileage) dropped off.

It's a cheater way of putting yourself on top of the list.

I don't pay much attention to it anyway.

regards
Mech

NachtRitter 10-13-2010 02:51 PM

Yes, definitely agree with the consensus... If you've got a fuel tank, then whatever fuel goes into the tank should be counted.

Plug-in hybrids are a bit more complicated, but any std ICE car is very straightforward, regardless of the fuel being used!

UFO 10-13-2010 02:55 PM

So what's up with n6yvy's 2009 cobalt? Even if you are taking liberties with E85, that would only come out to maybe 350 "mpg".

user removed 10-13-2010 03:06 PM

So I guess if I steal the fuel my mileage is infinite :mad:.

regards
Mech

ShadeTreeMech 10-13-2010 04:29 PM

Let's not forget that, despite WVO being a cleaner fuel (not CLEAN, just better than diesel), it still puts out carbon emmisions.

But i can see the difficulty of figuring mileage if you go by MPGe. The electric cars have to do this because of a lack of a gallon figure in their calculation. In the figuring of an MPG figure there is the gallon amount of WVO used. The only thing stopping an honest calculation is lack of willingness to count the gallons.

UFO 01-06-2011 06:52 PM

I just noticed the top mileage list got pruned a bit. I'd still like to see that 240D get taken down, it is certainly NOT getting 113mpg.

JasonG 01-06-2011 10:57 PM

It all comes down to motive.
Do you try to get better mileage and have people celebrate your success with you or do you tweak the numbers and add "equivalent * " to make yourself look better to a bunch of folks online.

Time and again we have discussed folks lowering their combined EPA to achieve a pseudo hypermiler tag on their fuel sig. Equivalent * metrics are the same thing in reverse.

This community runs on the honor system.

UFO 01-07-2011 12:52 AM

I only bring it up because the 240D I added was cut.


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