RCPlayland here.
 

Hello,

I have been facinated by the high MPG trucks from the 1980's. I have done some research only to find myself drowned in data.

I am joining this forum due to a google search that brought up a topic from Diesel Dave and his record setting 50mpg 3/4ton truck. WOW!

So with that said, I feel even more like a novice on this topic. So I will be doing a ton of reading and asking for help here or there to figure this all out.

What I would like to have is a 50+mpg S-10 or Ranger size truck.

I know that diesels would be the best bet. Yet the ones I have found are older and hard to find parts for.

Yet I have seen some youtube videos of newer style s-10's/rangers being swapped with diesel engines and getting sometimes up in the 60mpg range. Holy moses!

So my goal is building or buying a 50+mpg diesel truck newer style. Might possibly go with an older one, but again... parts availability.

One last thing that I couldn't find that much data on... does cummings make a diesel engine currently that fits in the newer style trucks? Or can I buy one of the overseas motors and stuff it in a newer truck?

Oh, I should add that I bought a new motorcycle just for mpg... 2013 Kawasaki EX300.

Love it! It gives you all the feel of a big boy bike... but lighter/lower center of gravity, higher mpg and still does 105+mph.

The worst I have got on it was 38mpg... very very very heavy throttle.
The best I have got on it was 80mpg... highway 65-70mph no wind mostly flat ground.
The average I get is 55mpg.

$6038.00 with 5 year full extended warranty.

Who is "Cummings"?

I think this is what he meant...
Cummins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There have been 4b conversions done to Rangers &S10's. 4BT Swap into Chevy S10 - Dodge Diesel - Diesel Truck Resource Forums

A Vw Tdi swap might be more economical fuel wise and alot less weight, not budget wise.

I bought a 1997 Ranger and using hypermiling techniques I have averaged very close to 32 MPG. Its a 2.3 manual without power steering with a 3.45 rear axle and a 5 speed. I do not use engine off coasting. I could probably get close to 40 MPG if I used every possible technique. A lot of my driving in the truck is highway at 55-65 MPH. I had a Ninja 300 but sold it and replaced it with a 1994 Suzuki GS500E with just over 10k miles. I am averaging close to 64 MPG with the GS500E compared to 68 MPG with the Ninja. The difference in fuel cost is offset by lower taxes on the GS. I have $1500 in the GS versus the $4k I paid for the Ninja. I sold the Ninja for what I paid for the bike. I recently bought another GS500E for $850 and will have just over $900 in it whn I get it roadworthy. I ride bikes a lot so the miles I put on a bike would mean high levels of depreciation oin a new bike and I can take care of most maintenance and repairs myself.

regards
Mech

Don't you mean "What" is Cummings...

Geesh, cut me some slack... I told you I was a novice... lol.

I hear ya on the motorcycle thing. Just the smaller 300 fits me better. My other motorcycle is a FZR600, which I have way too much money wrapped up in. But it gets 35mpg due to my heavy throttle riding and the ECU set up. I could have adjusted it all, but I wanted something new and high mpg without all the modifications/riding style it would require to get my FZR600 up to par with the 300.

As for the hypermiling of your truck... very cool.

My hopes are to find a high mpg truck or build one with normal non-hypermiling techniques and then start disciplining myself (I have already started with my current truck).

The best my truck has got was 26mpg drafting a diesel rig on the highway for 120 miles. But that is a bit too dangerous.

Majority of my driving is half highway and half stop/go in town traffic.

My main interest is the current newer trucks being swapped with newer style "CUMMINS" (lol) diesel motor set ups. But have had very little luck finding what I need to make that happen.

Too bad our government will not allow some of the small economy size trucks to have what the rest of the planet has. Bummer!

Is it the government or the lack of consumer base that prevents North American small diesel pickups?

My opinion would say that is opinion...

Because they are extremely popular everywhere else besides the US.

As far as the government.... they claim particulate emissions are to blame, even with the low sulfur fuels. Not gas emissions.

This much I have researched quite a bit, and very frustrated when I point out the not so fuel efficient larger diesels.

I have read a rumor that Chevy is putting out a 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder diesel truck that will get 35mpg.... so why will they not put this in a smaller economy truck.... I hear from the government.... emissions.... lol

(*SLAPS MY FOREHEAD*)

What? :confused:

The "GOVERNMENT" says it will not allow "NEW" 4 cylinder diesel small trucks like what are sold over seas here in the US due to "PARTICULATE" emissions (SOLIDS like sulfur), not gas emissions.

Yet a larger midsize trucks supposedly are allowed to have this type of engine that could easily be put in a smaller truck.... so hence why I slap my forehead.

Even more so the larger trucks than midsize have been shown to emit more particulates than the smaller 4 cylinder overseas economy engines... even with all the emission control systems on them.

So when you asked me if it was opinion. That was my answer. Messed up. But it is what I have found.

Makes no sense.

Does that help Frank Lee?

"Does that help?"- Not really.

How is it that diesel passenger cars are sold here?

My point exactly!

Every person I talk to that has a S-10 style or similar small truck, I ask them if there was a 4 cylinder diesel truck that could get 45-60mpg... would they buy one.

99% of them say yes.

So when I wrote to the department of motor vehicles, I got the excuse that they would not allow this to be made/sold in the US due to emissions.

SLAP TO THE FOREHEAD.

So does "THIS" explain my answer better.

I am answering you with only what I have experienced.

It makes no sense, being I know about VW TDI's, larger vehicles with diesels.

Here is another example... why did they only put hybirds on the larger trucks? You can not get a S-10 size truck with one.. (to my knowledge).

So why is that? What are your thoughts on this Frank Lee?

The frustration the OP is expressing is valid, and I am similarly mystified. How is is that smog-belching semi-trucks are perfectly legal, and men with small genitals can blow clouds of soot out of their lifted F-2150s all day long, but a reasonably small pickup can't have a reasonable, small diesel?

Back in my Ranger days, I was constantly frustrated. In Mexico you can buy a small (I think it's like 2 liter) diesel version that can easily break 30MPG highway, and has more torque than the wasteful 4.0 liter V6 I had---but somehow in America that's not okay. It IS okay to have a Chevy pickup with a 6 inch smoke pipe spewing black **** every time you accelerate, though.
I just don't get it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and what about the 1.0 liter diesel Yaris offered overseas? Why can't I get one of those?

Because certification is expensive and no manufacturer is going to spend that much if they think they won't find enough buyers?

You can get your 2.0 diesel Ranger if you want... but it will be an '84-'86 model.

Frank Lee, with the amount of small economy trucks on the roads (gasoline) and the conversion of larger fleets converting to natural gas, and propane. I would guess there is enough demand for this to cover the expenses of certification. You even pointed out that there are other passenger diesel vehicles.

So the conversion costs are mute point due to that they already do this in other venues within the US boarders.

This is not what I came here to do is debate with you and be criticized for one letter off spelling.

I came here to talk with people that are currently doing swaps, conversions, and what "IS" offered in the US to battle the mpg fuel costs.

Not sure what I did to get your attention. But please look else where. As it seems you only want to play games with me.

You asked for my reply. :rolleyes:

No, I really didn't till later.

Nevermind... I am not getting into this with you.

RCPlayland i dont have exact experience with a diesel conversion but i have done plenty of research...

The cummins engines while great for power and torque seem to rarely yeild good fuel economy due to their size and more so their WEIGHT!!! even the 4bt 4cylinder is said to be 1100 lbs!

my recommendation if any attempt at all would be something like the isuzu box truck engine and transmission they offer 1700cc and 2000cc engines which should do much better on fuel

depending on your local county emissions regulations they may throw a big fuss about diesel in a car who's vin code decodes as gasoline.

Thank you for the info libertyfrancis1!

I did not realize that about the cummins. I have heard and read about the 4tb conversions.

It makes sense now why they would still at best only get about 35-40mpg.

Have you heard of anyone trying to import a overseas motor to be swapped in one of the US made trucks. Like the colorado? I know they make a diesel version overseas, but can't find any info on if it would be worth it/possible to do.

Iowa and Nebraska are pretty relaxed on emissions.

As pointed out earlier, I probably will have to resort to a older model truck. I have heard though that some are hard or impossible to get parts for. I don't mind putting in the wrench time or fabrication. I don't want to be fabricating most of the parts it would need.

I really need to pm Diesel Dave and pick his brain. First I need to read his posts though so I am not asking questions he has already answered. lol.

For the 4bt swaps i would be shocked to see anything over 30mpg in a truck / suv chassis in normal driving conditions. If small cars with 1.6L diesels only do 50mpg EPA specs. Just something to consider i know some guys get big numbers but these are not apples to apples if they drive 34mph everywhere that would suck!

As for engine resources here are some i know of:
This is a local resource for people in the Dallas area but they do ship engines they have several import diesel engines in stock.
jdmenginescorp.com

I dont believe you will find a place that will have ship GM/Ford/Chrystler products to the US that were not offered here other than getting some thing on ebay.co.uk or something like that.

My personal thought on the most economical set up would be to use a vw TD engine from the late 80's with a custom adapter plate to the trucks original 5 speed. or just run a Rabbit truck with the front wheel drive layout. (since front wheel drive is more efficient)

my 2 cents.

good luck with the project.
-Liberty

Thanks man for the advice!

Gives me some stuff to look over.

Again, thanks! What a great resource!

Frank Lee is right about market size and you have a very simplistic understanding . .
 

... of EPA emissions rulings and guidelines.

People may say they would buy an economy diesel truck until they are faced with the several thousand extra it will cost them to do so. Then, the little economy truck doesn't look so economical.

Certification for retrofits is very costly. If the market is small, the cost per unit of conversion makes the exercise virtually impossible to sell. Diesels are considerably more polluting than CNG or propane and thus carry a much higher price tag.

Building diesel and hybrid options into larger payload offerings is always the wise market choice as the higher cost can be amortized into a business that uses the vehicle to make money versus the common person who just uses the average SUV as a people mover ( often only one person at a time).

And, one cannot compare the three differing emission levels of a passenger car, a light truck and a heavy Class 8 tractor. They have vastly different modes of operation and longevity and consequently, certification.

Correction and criticism are a big part of learning. Learn to deal with it or your education will be stunted.

Ok...

Last time I am arguing this.

My bad on using CNG and propane as a example they are less polluting than diesel... but to retort... you state that retrofit conversions to mass produce vehicles are expensive and not cost effective. Yet you state that it would not be unless in a bigger payload.

Here is my example:

I spend $2-4k a year in fuel with my current truck (19-22mpg)
A similar truck that has a 4 cylinder turbo diesel or just diesel can get up to 40-60mpg.

So with that said. Being a buyer of small economy trucks (gas currently). I would expect a reduction of my fuel bill from $2-4k a year to $1-2 at worst. Meaning I would have $1-2k I could apply towards a higher priced truck that has a diesel in it with higher MPG ratings. The $1-2k would be for a truck that would get me 40mpg.

Now if I had a 60mpg diesel truck, I could apply even more.... I would have $1.4-$2.68 I could apply per year to a higher priced truck.

(Yes diesel costs slightly higher, but not enough to falsify my numbers above)

So your logic of cost variance and application does not make any sense to me with my described example.

I can take criticism.

But Frank Lee corrected me with "Who is Cummings".... So sorry... spelling off by one letter.

Second, he asked "Is it the government or the lack of consumer base that prevents North American small diesel pickups?"

I explained, he said ""Does that help?"- Not really.

How is it that diesel passenger cars are sold here?"

Baiting me further.... which I bit. Then after I gave my example... which is not the reason I came here ... He retorts again:

"Because certification is expensive and no manufacturer is going to spend that much if they think they won't find enough buyers?"

Which is the same thing your debating with me on.

With simple math I can show that the average S-10 (which there are still tons of them on the road, especially as work trucks), The market could handle it and charge a extra $5,000-$7,000.... and it would pay for itself with the savings from the cost of fuel economy.

I find it humorous when explained that larger payload vehicles that get 12-19mpg that are converted to 30-35mpg are economical and justify the expense of a manufacturer, And they charge accordingly with about the same ratio numbers of difference in cost.

Yet when I express my view on the economy truck with the subjects or focus on mpg, cost of conversion, buyer's market... ect. It always has to come to this.

This is why I do not argue this, especially with people who bait me only to argue which I already know to be false.

I am looking for data and resources that are factual! As libertyfrancis1 (thank you again) provided for me.

I did not realize there was a importer of non-us based engines/transmissions. Further more he helped me realize that the 4tb motors were extremely heavy.

Sorry, but I did not come here to banter about this "IF" diesel engines would be economical and a market for them. Most times it is mute point, even when shown with simple math that there would be a buyers market here. Regardless of emissions and manufacturer's costs. Otherwise, why are we all here! There is a market!

My rant is done. Geesh. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.... lol.

If anyone still wishes to banter about this subject.

You will not like the outcome... last example..... Ask yourself this.

Which costs more to make? Small truck vs Big truck

So with that said, which would cost less to convert over the assembly line?

This is the logic I will bring to the table.

No, it's been quite tiresome enough already, thanks.

Lmao!


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...fk0uo1_500.jpg

You pull numbers out of thin air and call it "Data".
 

Disingenuous. You admit you are a neophyte and yet you speak as if you have great knowledge. This undermines the veracity of your arguments.

You also take my words out of context and meaning. I made it clear the market for small diesel economy pickup trucks in the USA is exceedingly small in comparison to larger payload vehicles for various technical and socioeconomic reasons. You have provided no reasonably hard argument to counter my (and every US manufacturer or importer's ) conclusion. More on this in just a bit.

Large trucks cost more to build than small trucks. But by not as large a margin as you might think. The previous partnership between Dodge and Mercedes saw Mercedes cut away small vehicle production by Dodge as vans, SUVs and trucks produced several times the profit of economy vehicles for only a fractional increase in production costs. These large vehicles are by far the most profitable vehicles to produce largely because most of their price is perceived value and is malleable through marketing.

You also speak of retrofitting. If the manufacturer did not see it worthwhile to make a small diesel economy pickup truck how do you expect to amortize the millions needed to certify a diesel conversion? For each platform? With increasingly stringent emissions? Converting gasoline engines to propane and CNG is straightforward addition of hardware to the existing engine. Quite easy in comparison to diesel which would entail not just exchange of the entire power plant but also all the accessories it drives as well as a probable upgrade of brakes and suspension to safely handle the probable higher mass. Can you do all of this for the dollars you are "guesstimating"? And still make a profit? Not much robot assembly help either as retrofits are very manpower intensive. It is simplistic to equate production costs linearly to retrofit costs. You had better make profit part of your estimate too because no bank or investor will lend without a clear profit motive. Unless you already have the millions in liquid assets to fund this endeavor of course.


You say via your "math" that you can do this for 5000 to 7000 USD. This is very naive. You cannot simply import some Japanese or European diesel engine and stick it into your S10. You must use an engine that is certified for use in America by the EPA. Also, you cannot go from a heavy duty engine application (aforementioned 4BT Cummins ) and put it into a passenger or light duty application without certification for that application for that year. A cleaner running passenger diesel of the same year or later may be placed in a heavy duty application, but you may not like the pulling power or lack of it. But, if your goal is to putt around for maximum mileage, that would be your clear path. Then there are the requirements for warranty and service . . .

Then there is the marketing. You said everyone you spoke to would buy a diesel economy pickup. Was this number a statistically significant number? I highly doubt it. Marketing doesn't start based on a few tidbits. Carefully crafted polls are put in front of significant demo-graphical population numbers. There truly are numerous drivers of small economy pickups all across the USA. They number in the millions. But, they drive economy pickups because of economical reasons. Would a large number of them consider a 5-7K$ retrofit worthwhile? Maybe. Would a large number of them be willing to put 5-7K$ into a retrofit that costs more than the value of their older S10 or Tacoma? Probably not. Would business owners see it as an economical advantage to upgrade their old fleet? I don't think so.

As a business owner, I can simply say, no. I would put my 5-7K$ towards the down payment on one of the soon to be announced 4 cylinder Cummins powered Nissans. Or the under certification Fiat Diesel Dodges. Or other soon to be announced relatively light duty diesel pickups.

"Hey! You said there wasn't a significant market for light duty diesel pickups?" Currently and previously, no - there wasn't. But, as fuel prices creep past 4$ per gallon and approach 5$, diesel powered anything becomes attractive due to it's current efficiency advantage. The levels of diesel acceptance might approach that of Japan or Europe as our fuel costs approach their costs. Thus there is guarded investment in diesel development by the major manufacturers. Of course, gasoline engines are also closing the efficiency gap along with greater application of various hybridizing technologies.

My neighbors' choice of business vehicles is a good example of the market environment in America. One neighbor has a Taxi/shuttle service to and from the airport. His vehicles regularly exceed 80K miles a year. He chose Dodge Sprinter Diesels as his vehicles because the 40 thousand dollar price tag made sense due to his need for economy and longevity. The other neighbor chose Dodge gasoline powered mini vans as they suited her needs for delivery of flowers to the local community. Her vehicles rarely exceed 12K miles a year. She felt the much lower priced gasoline vans were economical enough for her and had a lifespan that matched her use.

The manufacturers have done their marketing, and it does not include large numbers of small payload diesel vehicles. At least right now. This could change as fuel prices continue their upward trend.

Ok, let me pull a Frank Lee on ya there RustyLugNut.

Your quote
"Disingenuous. You admit you are a neophyte and yet you speak as if you have great knowledge. This undermines the veracity of your arguments."

My retort.

Disingenuous
Definition of Disingenuous: Adjective
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.


***********************************************

So you have me confused... Am I disingenuous? Or do I lack knowledge?

Your very first paragraph and what you called me are opposite of each other.

Hence: You will not like the outcome.

Do you wish for me to continue further into your post? Honestly, I really rather not. Especially when your lead paragraph indicating your opinion of me is..... well....

Definitely not disingenuous!

My honest opinion of this banter... a waste of my time. I am only replying, for amusement at this point.

I actually think it about time for a moderator or admin to step in and lock this thread... or just delete it/trim it... for factual data that does help and does not waste others time.

Let us get back to your original post.
 

Those youtube videos that show late model diesel mini pickups begs the question of legality. Unless you do not expect to ever have your vehicle scrutinized you can pretty much put any diesel engine in your late model mini. However, if you intend to drive it and register it longer, I suggest you go to the guidelines found at the EPA website concerning engine swaps.

If I were you, I would start by targeting my base truck so that you will have your year and specifications set. Then you can proceed to research what diesel engines are available that can fit physically and legally. The later model trucks will obviate late model diesel engine swaps from certified sources such as VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc.

As someone mentioned, there were diesel mini pickups available during the 80s by the Big Three via their Japanese affiliates. These pickups could be the basis for a "HOTROD" diesel pickup since most municipalities do not require extensive testing on these vehicles. Parts for some of them are more common than you think. But, in reality, since you will be swapping in another engine and probably a transmission, it doesn't really matter about parts. You are free to hotrod what you need. All you want is a clean body/frame and VIN. There will be a modest amount of fabrication, but nothing beyond what you could find at many home shops.

The third option would be to find a truck older than 1975. Since there is no requirement for emissions, you can pretty much do whatever you want engine wise. I would choose one of the classics such as a Ford F150 which were made in the millions and carried suspension pieces through many model years. A gasoline version is fine as there is no emissions checkup required. I would build around the frame and suspension a tube frame aero body along with a Cummins 4BT swap. This option requires the most in planning, tooling and execution but would result in a most satisfying and exclusive vehicle.

I hope I have not scared you off your project. But these are the realities. They do have their pitfalls and benefits and somewhere along the lines is a path for you to reach your goals.

Why did I say the previous statement. You treat me as I do not have vast knowledge... as it has already been pointed out.

I have knowledge of the outline and using logic. I have researched older trucks, and overseas trucks.

Yet, did I know that a importer could get me engines as another member pointed out? Nope.

I read quite a few posts about the testing and sharing of data with other members in other posts. I found this forum to be a vast amount of great information.

So after reading all this, I posted that I am a novice. Due to the fact of what I had read here.

Yet when I get spelling nazi Frank Lee, and you RustyLugNut wanting to banter political/economical jargon of why the auto manufacturers will not produce a small economy truck.... I am not here for that.

This forum alone proves my point right about why the U.S. is oil driven by profits to not produce said vehicles.

I am intelligent. I have a brain. My novice area is the data and resources I seek to make my vehicle I seek a reality.

I am not here for political jargon. Nor to banter/debate this.

One admission I did not know... Neophyte... didn't know that one. But your retorts against me show that you think me opposite of this. Hence my previous post you confuse me on.

So really, can you let it die? I am sure there is some Jerry Springer forums somewhere.

This is a introductions post for god's sake. Nice to meet you too! lmao!

PS: Nebraska/Iowa/Missouri are not so strict about building a modified vehicle. I do not live in California.

Hence if you can slap a motor on a frame/ lights/ horn/ seats/ seatbelt... they will issue a title/plates.

Lastly, thank you Frank Lee and RustyLugNut... Your input has gained me 0% towards my goal. TY!

And Rusty...

A 4tb swap has already been pointed out that would not get me my goal and a alternative has been shown earlier on in the thread by another member that gave me a resource to follow....

Post away... I am going to read other threads.

Look at your post.
 

Look at the definition you just gave. You call yourself a novice and then argue. You pretend you know little then you argue as if you know much. You are not candid in your search for knowledge. You are disingenuous.

And the reader can see your posts and make their own judgement as to your knowledge base.

And now you use this as an excuse to avoid my answer to your question. Or is it because you cannot stomach my reply? Please continue the discussion in a manner that is productive and I can do the same.