Replacing Class c motorhome body for touring act
 

First off, I love this forum. It's amazing what you guys accomplish with minimal materials and raw brainpower!

I'm new, but have been reading as much as I can take in. Forgive me if I'm not quite studied in all this aerodynamic fun.

I tour the country with a rock band of robots I made, and have been using this 19ft class c for the last 8 years. Due to VERY annoying local laws, I'm forced to put it in my short 16.9 ft driveway, and since the body is falling apart anyways, I figure now would be a great time to make this brick less of a brick.
Last tour I spent $8000 on gas, so if I can get even a 10-20% improvement, that's quite a bit. I don't figure its going to cost me too much, as I'm quite the scrapper. I find free/cheap materials often in bulk.

I know this 1972 class c isn't a great platform to start with, but if the Cd is really that bad it shouldn't be too hard to get a lot better with a totally new body, right?
I do have a gear vendors installed though. I love that lil guy....

In order to fit the robots most efficiently in the camper, I have to have it approx 8 ft wide. If I load lengthwise in a more narrow van, I have no room to live while on the road.

The plan so far is to remove the entire rv body, leaving the van front. I'll redo the very warped subfloor and beef up the side frame supports. Then make the roof slope up from the van front following the windshield angle, and then do a slight taper over the entire length of the roof to the rear.

I plan on feathering the body wider from the front doors rather than the flat wall extensions it has now. What were they thinking?

Overall, the plans include a lot of great stuff I've found here so far:
Side skirts, wheel fairings front and back, air dam, and Im going to make a hinged foldable tail to be out when freeway driving, but when parking I can fold and latch it out of the way to fit in smaller spaces (very important as many parking spaces I can just squeeze into now.

My questions will be many but I've got a few to start.
To keep it as light as possible, should I use metal studs for the framing, or should I use 2x4? I weld as well, so I could do square tubing, or whatever.
My plan was to skin it with galvanized sheet metal, and on the top edges having at least a 2in radius. I've seen the ideal aerodynamic template, and I'll try to adhere to the concepts, though the main ones being a constant taper inward slightly??? I'm going to Photoshop some body ideas to run them by you before I start chopping as I'm gathering materials.

I'll get a pict up soon....

Btw, does anyone know of a more aerodynamic roof vent? They really help cool off my camper in hot weather.

I'd start with weighing the stripped chassis front and rear axles, and calculating where your load should be for weight distribution. Put the load as far forward as possible. this will allow taper in plan. 8' wide at the back of the load, rear axle width at the axle line and then you can increase as you go back from there. The radius for the transition from the cab should be greater than the depth of the transition, in other words, start at maybe 45% in plan.

Round back off the top of the windshield in plan or elevation, or both.

Make the bottom of the foldable tail separate and strong enough so you can use it for a back porch when your parked in the country.

If you use metal studs you can notch them to make curves. Turn them so they're 2" deep, not 4". that will gain 4" in interior space.

There have been discussions of rooftop blisters for vent/air conditioning, but I don't remember the thread. Maybe someone else will. I would recommend going through the Phil Knox seminars.

All above IMHO, of course.

Ok, I did some photoshop to the template I found here.

This is a rough draft, I might still need to go slightly taller in the front, but I'm not sure yet.
The first shot is the RV as of now.
Then the first attempt at remaking it using the template.

The tail piece I showed would be only used while driving, then folded up for parking.

I was wondering if the bottom part could just be replaced with flat side skirts like semi's have, angled towards the rear wheels instead of doing a belly pan (might be a real pain for this... )
Anyways, am I screwed here, or does this look like something that could net some serious gains, along with motor diy (electric fan, electronic ignition, and electric fuel pump)

http://www.capturedbyrobots.com/images/rv.jpg
http://www.capturedbyrobots.com/imag...atecamper2.jpg

being a 1972 is very nice:thumbup:, you can mod the engine/drive train in any way since your 100% DEQ exempt.

be a bit of work but swapping to a manual trans whould help.
also look in to how many gearing differences there where back then.

its likely geared like are delivery truck before we changed things up.
3sp auto and 4.11 gear makes for about 3,000 at 60.

if the engine is the 440ci swapping to a 318 would help as well.
i know more then one person that can get high teens out of a 3/4 ton with a 318 where the 440 is REALLY BAD MPG, LIKE 12 IN A EMPTY TRUCK:eek:
the 360ci gets about the same mpg as the 440 so i cant reccomend a 360 my self.

i do know one person that did a swap to a ford 6.9L with the ford 3sp auto trans and it turned in to a 9 to 13 mpg auto. it was 3.5 to 7.5 mpg with the 440:eek::eek::eek:
aro mods, diff swap and a manual trans would have taken it to the high teens or better.

an electric fan would be a good idea, unless it needs more cooling on a long grade do to being around 10,000lbs
clutch fans can take more btus of heat out of the coolant in less time then a electric, thus why big rigs still have them.


even if its a 440 and 3speed auto, getting about 6 mpg and you don't mess with that.
"MAJOR" aro changes should get it an avrege near 9 mpg at around 55mph

Sorry, I wasn't specific of the powertrain.
360, stock holly 2bbl, glasspacks, 727 w/gear vendors under/overdrive, 4.10 rear,
Gear vendors chart shows that when the overdrive is activated it acts like a 3.2 rear.
I'm getting about 7-8mpg loaded to the hilt. I bet I could get much better mpg with less extra crap in the camper, and lots of aero changes.

Oh, and 99% of my driving is freeway, I activate the gear vendors at about 45, and it carries me up to 70 + easy, but I usually keep it at about 60. Hums right along. Before I had the gear vendors, it was screaming at 55. that was some serious long drives when you max out at 55! :o
I don't know if a 318 would have the grunt I need for my load when hitting the mountains or extreme headwinds. My robots and amps and merch is about 1500lbs, can't get much less of a load.
And, the rv now is totally gutted, no appliances or holding tanks at all. Just a plywood bench seat and some 1/2in plywood walls and doors. The 1x2 framing and aluminum shell makes the body very light.

looks like a good start, you can only go up from here :)

keep it up!

bingo, gear venders that's the perfect thing for keeping it above 7 mpg and doing nothing else :thumbup:
3.20 gear is just right...:thumbup:
striped out im thinking it still something like 6,000lbs or so but that's just a gess...being a 1 ton chasse, your not going to get super light.

are you using a trailer for the cargo, or is it all in the RV:confused:

the 318 is just fine in my mind, it was a common gas saver 3/4, 1ton engine tell the 90s

in a way having the 360 is a good thing, even though i personly dont like them, the trans housing is the same as a 318.
where if it was a 440 you would need a trans swap or housing change.
so should you want to do that it would not be as hard as if it was a 440

i have no science to prove it. but i think with big aro mods, you can have the drag you had stock at 45mph at 60mph with a much better aro shape.


are delivery truck was a 460 and C6 i know all about a screamer engine and ""galleons per mile"" in the city WOW.
we swapped it out for a 300/6 and a early ZF 5speed truck does little freeway driving so we stayed with the 4.10 gear

is it fast, NO
loaded to 14K can it go faster then 70 at WOT on a flat road, NO
did it make the mpg of the auto 100% better YES
do the brakes last twice as long with the manual trans to help slow on hills YES
can it move the same loads it did with the 460 YES just a little slower.

granted we modded the engine for air flow so the engine could breathe much better. the old 4.9L I-6 had some really restricted air flow, and a EGR that was flat silly to even be there since it was just a pipe.
but did not do a cam change or drastically over sized carb


any way, sounds like your off to a real good start :thumbup::thumbup:

Well, maybe once I have some aero mods, I could do a 318. As for a manual trans, I could do it, but the 727 was recently rebuilt.
What I'm hoping is that if I have success with a new body, and doing all the aero mods I can do, then I can see proof of concept which will spur me on to get crazy with this stuff on a better platform later.

Now to framing. I have a ton of redwood if I wanted to go that route for the beams. I could use conduit or steel studs, I'd use square tubing but that would get heavy fast. I just want the body to be as light as I can go. Would sheet metal riveted over a steel stud frame be strong enough?
I'd sandwich some sort of hardboard or thin plywood on the inside to add insulation and rigidity.

Just looking for someone who's done this before.

Then lastly, will the long angled descent across the roof help that much on aerodynamics (like in the template)? Why doesnt it show up on production bigger vehicles?

hears some info from some one that has done aro mods to a RV before.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...d-e-18151.html

It looks like you have the idea of the Template, but you can define the top curve however you want. Slide the template back ~4' until the top of their windshields coincide. You'll need to shrink the template maybe 5%.

Two words: Dodge Magnum

OK, longer answer: 1930's Beer Trucks
http://i.imgur.com/SCuoU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OtusW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Io2SY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/euAOg.jpg

...also Canadian furniture moving vans in the 40's.

The rooftop blister I told you about in the Introduction thread is in the thread trooper Tdiesel pointed to:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post250241

erm, #post250241; the forum software obscures that.

Freebeard! You rule!
I've never seen those trucks before. I covet!
The last pic you showed is about as big as I could go.
With a design like the last pic ( Okeefes) I wouldn't even need the boat tail.

So I need the height in the camper. I might eventually even redo the nose if this all works out. Moving the template back would give me more high roof area right?
I'll try to move it today and see how it looks.

I've been really trying to decide on framing. I've looked into lots of different materials. If I wanted it to come together easy, I could do the teardrop trailer type of construction, bent plywood on rounded wood or metal ribs then skin it in galvanized. I could just do the standard flat sides up to a decent radius to the roof with plywood and 2x2 framing. I bet metal studs and galvanized would be the lightest way to go, and the most easily repairable, but the 1/2 or even 1/4in plywood (for easier curves) would give it more durability if it was sandwiched in-between.

I wonder, is there any metal construction stud material that is similar to the way cargo vans are framed? It's like a U channel with a flat flange folded into some thick sheet metal. That would be ideal stud material for this job.

Like this, but thinner if I can find it.
U-Flange Posts

That U-Flange stock is 1.5—2 lbs per lineal foot. Do the math. Galvanized sheet metal is "inexpensive" but heavy. Consider the FRP panels they use to line the walls in gas station rest rooms.

http://i.imgur.com/mSekm.jpg
The Bowlus trailers (pre-dates Airstream) used aluminum over welded electrical conduit. They made a 30' motor home that weighed 3500 lbs.

Bowlus Trailers - Models

This morning Google images led me back to Ecomodder and this post by trebuchet3:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...html#post77352

I interpret 'roof camber ratio' as longitudinal rather than lateral and I see that in the post just above this one, Big Dave name-checks Bowlus.

You wrote:
It probably won't change much. Keep in mind that The Template assumes a half-circle in cross-section. There exists a mathematical figure that is halfway between a circle and a square. I can't remember the name, and my books are in boxes instead of bookshelves. :( Google isn't helping; maybe I'll remember the name (anything is possible). I think it would make a good cross-section.

It was in Shelter, p. 126: the Superellipse.
Superellipse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rotate this 45° and use the top half:
http://i.imgur.com/EoD1W.jpg


I almost forgot Drop City :eek::
Drop City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They used triangles cut out of car tops, with no internal framing (requires compound curves).
http://i.imgur.com/CSef1.jpg

When you taper the rear the wheels may stick out a bit. Consider these...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8443/7...4403db79_z.jpg
1935 Auto Union Rekordwagen Typ Lucca. Hans Stuck by kitchener.lord, on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8303/7...c1275648_z.jpg
1921 Rumpler Tropfenwagen chassis by kitchener.lord, on Flickr

Lord Kitchener is cool.

Here is a little preview from my upcoming 'Project, the Third' post:
http://i.imgur.com/Xlh8q.jpg

And here is the Bowlus Papoose, from the bottom of the Bowlus Trailers Models page:http://i.imgur.com/CMC6g.jpg

Possibly more in line with a commercial vehicle.

:DSuprised this has not been posted yet
http://www.washedashore.com/projects...mages/car3.jpg
3d model of the dymaxion car
For light weight cover it in fabric like older airplanes are :D
Here is a youtube of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u2qP...hannel&list=UL

RIP Bucky

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm trying to keep capturedbyrobots focused. Maybe he'll be ready for this in v2.0.

I'd given up on that page; did you notice he hasn't finished the model he started in 1999. The Sketch-up model from 2008 is new, so thanks.

Have you seen Sir Norman Foster's Dymaxion #4?

You might like this:
SIA Flashback – Teardroppers powered by Ford

I moved the template back so the camper front is along with the template front.
Seeing as what you posted about long vehicles not benefiting much from longer taper, do you think this less tapered design is decent? Numbers are width so having to taper out from 5 ft to 8 ft wont be great, but I need the room.

http://www.capturedbyrobots.com/imag...atecamper4.jpg

Those ford teardroppers are very cool. Beautiful designs.

I could use conduit for the frame, and instead of sheet aluminum I could use a light gauge galvanized sheet. The last galvanized sheet metal I dealt with was very light. I wonder what gauge would be sufficiently strong, but not too heavy? My buddy could hook me up with a lot of galvanized...his friend owns an hvac company.

As well, if I used conduit or 2x2s, what would be the best method to fasten the skin to the frame which would not leak? Caulk under every screw? Spot weld? I have used self drilling sheet metal screws with great success before when I attached 1/2 a VW bus to the top of my old van. That was a great project. VW on top of a 1/2 ton van. So fun!

Btw, does anyone know of a more aerodynamic roof vent? They really help cool off my camper in hot weather.


Aero, schmero . . FANTASTIK FAN has the best reputation for service, and the performance is outstanding. They have a new vent cover which substantially outperforms the usual ones out there (they say). Worth your investigation as anything that reduces HVAC use is to the good.

Outstanding thread!!

.

lol, hvac? I've got none. Well, heat yes but no ac. Bare bones. I'll check em out.
I mostly need it to vent well when sleeping or loading as it's a sweaty job, especially in the south.

This was my first and only major modification to a vehicle, back in 1997. it was a triple decker when you lifted the poptop. I miss it a lot, but it was too short to fit my robots.
http://www.capturedbyrobots.com/imag...ontopofvan.jpg

It looks good. Did you gain or lose headroom?

The copy of the Template I have has an instruction to scale to height as you have done for the top, and then scale to equal the wheelbase to work out the ground clearance. Does yours have that note?

The "Aero Rules" in post #16 suggest width x 0.45 (96"*.045=4.3") for the radius, and you have to bump out 18". So it sounds like you could bump out 1' and radius the last 6". If you are planning for the section over the cab to be only 5' wide, the radiused edge could roll back to mimic the template bullnose curve. It would look Art Deco. Instead of a circular radius, a parabolic curve would be nice.

The advantage to using galvanized steel is the body won't turn into an electric battery that eats itself (corrosion). ;)

Picture a 2x2 wood frame without it's skin. You'd have to bracket every joint to make it rigid. You can't just nail it. And it would fight your compound curves all the way. Conduit is easily bend and like Bowlus you could weld it all together (assumes you have a welder, of course).

You could drill holes in the sheet, align it over the conduit and spot weld the holes shut, or drill both, dimple the hole in the sheet and use pop rivets. The nicer it looks, the happier you will be.

What did you think of the Superellipse? What did you think of Drop City?

Drop city was great, love the alternative building materials. If I only had a buddy with a junkyard! So the super Elipse can be used for the main part of the upper radius and walls, but the bottom will have the long skirts so would I still want to taper it in?

I gained headroom on this design, I like it, but it sure is ugly. Maybe paint will help disguise the ugly.

Btw, the welding idea rules. I weld every day, so it would not be a problem. Just would have to get some tool to chop the ends of the conduit in the C shape to have the 90deg joints fit tight. I hate having to shape tubing for clean joints with my angle grinder. It's a pain.

With my welder, I wouldn't have to even drill a hole. It'll burn right thru the sheet to the conduit. I know galvanized is nasty when you weld, but I'll wear a respirator.

Ok, so conduit and galvanized sheet it is. Done.

Now, since the body will be tacked to the frame, what method of sealing the seams could be used? I'd love to solder it if I could figure out a way to get it to stick. That would be tight as a mofo! Ive only soldered uncoated steel. Guess I could just sand off the coating at the seams before soldering...

Welding the seams would be tough, as it's so easy to burn thru thin sheet.
Ideas?

Since I'm going to be painting this, I guess I could just use some sort of hard body filler over the seams, then sand smooth....that would be the cleanest looking after it's done.

Hey Robot Slave, Been looking in on your build and really had nothing to add till today, I have come up with 2 different things, but it looks to me like you have the one idea covered.

1st I was going to say that your V1 drawing was too tapered, it's surprising how little a taper you need to be effective, but by moving the plan taper back on your rig, you fixed it! Good on ya!

Next, I want to suggest looking for a small FanTech fan for a vent fan, they're whisper quiet and very efficient. An FR125 will use only 20 watts of power, you could buy a cheap inverter to power it with 12v and just use 4" ducting to plumb it. It may take a little more ingenuity to figure out how & where to install it, but for about $110, you really have something that Sucks....er, I mean, Blows...uh, well you know what I mean. When I built houses a a few years back, I used these a lot. Insane quality for the price, the impellers look like aircraft parts.

FanTech Supplier Idea

FanTech Site

Look up NACA vents for providing airflow while the rig is moving down the highway, they are a low drag way to move air.

I would avoid putting anything in the slipstream if possible, it will really be counter productive to what you are trying to do here.

Yer #22 post looks like the way to go. My only question would be how you cover the front wheels, but you could save that for last.

Car tops are great because they are already painted and undercoated, but you could do the same with sheet metal. My concern would be that the gauge of ducting metal might not be up to the stresses out on the road. One construction detail Fuller used was to turn 2 non-coplanar triangles into a tetrahedron. This would be a bazillion times stronger than 2 layers flat against each other.

Jeez, I don't know. :) With flanged triangles you could be spot-welding on the inside every 3/8".

So here's a suggestion for a hybrid construction: Conduit and simple curves combined with geodesics. The edge lengths of the triangles are mathematically calculable, or you could wrap strings around a football to represent the geodesic lines and pick the dimensions off with a tape measure.

http://i.imgur.com/bH3Jv.jpg

I'm going to go off and do something else now. I'll check back later.

Its getting a little confusing. Never dealt with these triangles or domes...
I think it might be too much for me with trying to get it covered quick. I'd hate to get in over my head and then feel lost.

I found out that soldering the seams wouldn't be too hard, just would need to prep well. Or a locktite product or even a bondo style material would work to smooth and waterproof the seams to make it look smooth.
I think with good overlap, and sealing it inside and out, it would hold up fine.
The aluminum material my camper has now is only durable in the sense that if you don't touch it it's fine. A simple tree branch can rip it open easily. Steel would definitely be stronger, and I could get away with a lighter gauge than aluminum.

Yeah, the last design I posted is what I want to do, but is there a template for it looking down from the top? Id like to try and get a more 3d plan of attack.

As for roof vents, Ill wait until the build is done to decide what to do. If I added a normal vent then added a vent cover like was posted would that be still kill my FE, cd ,AAA, a&e, and all that fun?

I think I'm going to attempt to reuse my old windows and just rebuild them.

From the top down, in an ideal world, you would superimpose 2 template like this.

http://i50.tinypic.com/atnrjr.jpg

But who are we kidding? Trying to design this into your shell would be very complicated, and I don't believe the return would be significant. I have thought through your design and this is why I say V2 is great, you don't really need to worry about the sides if you don't angle down the top too quickly. If you put the tail cone on, this would need a bit of a side taper. The thing you're trying to avoid is a pair of huge tornados that you drag along behind you everywhere you go. This is caused when the top drops too quickly, and the sides don't. The lower pressure created on top drags up air from the sides and makes a mess of things.

Look at this link to get a better idea of what I mean.

Page with lots of Vortex Talk

So, if you build your new shell based on the side view in post #22, just be sure you come in gradually and only about 10-12 inches on your tail cone area from where it attaches to the straight sides and I think you'll optimize your space, and avoid the dreaded big butt vortices that really kill you.

The reason a vortex is bad has to do with the energy it takes to maintain it. Keep in mind, the air you're driving through is standing still. We have it in our minds so strong that the air is "Blowing" over our vehicles, and for a lot of things, this is OK to think this way. But when considering the Vortex, it helps to keep reality in mind. The vehicle is pushing through air that is not moving. (Assuming a calm day)

Now when we minimize the amount we disturb, or set into motion, this still air, then we end up imparting less energy to make it go in motion. When you create a tornado that you are dragging along, it requires a large amount of energy to keep it moving. Remember the air was still before you came along, so if it's rotating after you left the spot, that requires energy, the bigger the vortex, the more energy required.

The key is to minimize the pressure differences that are close together, so by modestly tapering your top, you don’t create as much low pressure that is going to try and suck in the higher pressure air from the side. At the back tail cone area, where the top starts to angle down more, you need to taper in the sides to form a lower pressure there thus keeping the air from moving up.

I hope I didn’t lose you there. If so speak up and I’ll try drawing something or figure out another way to put it.

You may want to reconsider the whole foldable tailcone thing and make that interior space instead, as long as you don't pile a ton of stuff in the back, I'd think that room would be gold to you. Heck, that would be a good place for the bed to go and really stretch out. just sayin.

Also, I notice you're pretty aggressive on the bottom coming up, this should be 10° max and I measured it to be a bit over this at 12°. You may want to rise more gradually there.

Hope this helps.

Great explanation!
Got it.

The tail is foldable for parking. I didn't write it in this thread, but I mentioned it in my introduction. My city is ****ed. They've been giving me tickets lately for having a motorhome on the street between 2-6am. I've been here for 4 years and never had an issue. This is what led me here.

To fit it in my driveway so they can't keep popping me, my driveway is 16.9 ft to the sidewalk. Can't block the sidewalk or I'll get popped for that. I was gonna get a diesel box truck and modify that, but then there's another bull**** law, no commercial vehicles with a rating over 10k gvwr parked on the streets.
The small uhaul box trucks (f350) are rated at 11k. Pow, ticket!

So I've been hunting unicorns, looking for a vehicle that can fit my robots, and one that I can park on the street to keep it at around 19ft.
Can't find one. Need the standing room in a tall vehicle, need the 8ft width to store the bots width wise so I can have the living room when on the road for 6-8 weeks at a time.

I have 2 calls into the head of the department of parking and traffic, and have not received a call back yet. I need to find out if the vehicle classification changes on the registration, and it no longer looks like a motorhome, will I still get tickets? If not, then I'll build it longer (19ft total length, then I'll do the boat tail after that. I swear, this bull**** has kept me up at night, wondering if I'll owe the city $47 every night is a really great way to induce insomnia.

If he doesn't call me back, I'm going to go the the police chief and lodge a complaint, and have the chief help me understand the law and figure out a way to not break the law. ****. I hate authority. I feel like a ***** bowing down to their crap, but unless I pay for storage, I have to deal with them.

Heres a thought on the new sleeper nub I'll have over the front seats,
Would it help to add an upside down boat style nose to it, so it's not bulbous as much as it's pointed, then follow that upside down boat style from the top all the way back???

Just a thought, but I won't bother with it if it wouldn't give me much benefit over a rounded top without the taller center rib.

No problem (the whole rest of the world isn't ready yet, too), even though it would be stronger. It was suggested to address this:

http://i.imgur.com/bH3Jv.jpg

Ignore the triangles. Instead of the sleeper getting to 8' wide at the back of the doors you could push it further back as shown.

Here's an example of what your structure would look like:
http://i.imgur.com/Qzd5y.jpg

I knew a guy that lived in a Chevy panel truck. He had an awning that mounted on the roof that would roll back to make a roof over the back doors. It could follow the slope of the rear roof, and deploy downhill easily but you'd have to push it uphill to store it. There's been some debate about whether the back and bottom of the boat tail need to be enclosed.

Instead of a boat, think boxfish:
http://i.imgur.com/smKsa.jpg

As far as top and bottom of the tail they would fold against the back doors, and latch. For removing stuff from the rear doors, I'd just make a prop up stick like car hoods have and the bottom would just lay down so I could put a sturdy ramp over it. I'm just going to make it out of coroplast sheet with metal frame. No real structural integrity, so if they get hit, no biggy.

I think a cummins repower is in order. The 6BT should bolt right in. A 4BT would do even better mpg wise, but, it might be a tougher fit. I think the 727 would be up to either one, just make sure you have a huge tranny cooler.

Personally, I'd just find something like this....

2003 F.o.r.d E.3.5.0 passenger bus diesel 9 passenger

The nose is already pretty sleek and the wheelchair lift would be handy for loading your 'bots. BTW, could we have a pic of your rockstars? just tack a nice boat tail on. I would think that 20 mpg would be doable.

Captured by Robots Promo Pic

Just guessing that's you in the funny shirt and the chain link adornments. :p

Yep, I've been captured by robots, they are jerks...ripped my guts out, dont cha know.

I want a truck like that. Problem is, how much you wanna bet it's over 11k gvwr?
Then I'm in the same boat I am in now, and would still either have to shorten it to fit in the driveway, or get tickets when I parked it on the street.