Revisiting small 'freeway' scooters (70mph capable), 150-200cc ideally..
 

Honda elite 150 from the 1980's could hit 70mph(gps) barely and hold 60mph(gps) up a slight incline, but it didn't sound too 'happy' if you tried to hold it there long. ~10hp 153cc ~236lbs(dry). ROUGH estimate from looking at fuelly- someone might hope to average say ~ high 60's to 80mpg ish (usa) riding the elite ch150 flat out @65mph, with fuel economy in mind.

Modern scooter options (fuel injected) in this same class/ 'ballpark' (cc/hp) should be the best 'all around high mpg', yet still fully freeway capable contenders. What bike (scooter) in this ~150cc-200cc class would YOU pick for mpg purposes and ability to handle just a little more than a PCX150 in top speed? 65mph+ for more than just a few exits, for example. Any input appreciated!


One size up, Honda Reflex 250cc (19hp ~375lbs) could hold 75mph & average high 60's mpg or a little more, on the interstate. But a Ninja 250 of the same era could average 80mpgs @65mph (almost without trying).... Still sometimes the scooter is more fun, storage/weather protection on a scooter is hard to beat.... and not tucking at all on the Ninja 250 might result in high 70's mpg's ridden conservatively at similar speeds.


The top modern scooter contenders... ?

Yamaha xc155 SMax, 15hp say ~315ish lbs (DRY) 155cc
-Looking at the numbers on fuelly, someone might optimistically shoot for mid to high 80's mpg's running flat out at 65mph , ? Have to admit I'm a fan of flat floor 'vintage' styled models vs maxi scooter styling, personal preference, generally speaking.

Yamaha NMax / NVX155 (15hp 260-270 lbs-ish,? (dry) 155cc), might perhaps be able to do a little better than the above smax on MPG but a little less on the top speed as well. - Let's estimate that it would likely max out at a real 68mph instead of 70mph. But a economy minded rider MIGHT optimistically aim for high 80mpg's to low 90mpg's @62-65mph, ?

Sym hd 200 evo , joyride 200i evo ? (I think around 171cc's) Yes can hit/hold 70mph? = what mpg's ? Other sym models?

Kymco offerings? (People 200i, I think around 163cc, not quite up to it as far as 70mph, for example).

Vespa, Piaggio, Aprilla, Genuine, etc? even some optimized form of the gy6 clone or similar?

Suzuki Burgman 200 (18hp, Yes 70mph capable , ~326lbs dry) ? Only con- price tag...

What else am I missing? Any models that stand out?


A Honda CBR125R sportsbike can pull off great mpg's and handle running flat out at 65mph+ , that's a good option if you're in Canada. Sym wolf 150cc standard can probably hold 62-65mph flat and maintain above average mpg's , it's very light. There are various standard motorcycle and faired offbrand/Chinese/etc options springing up the last 2-3 years in the 150-200cc motorcycle class. Not may of these can readily hold 65-70mph..

What other possible SCOOTER options am I missing? I'm currently keeping my eyes out on the used market. I would certainly pull the trigger on a great deal on a used pcx150 also, but something just one step up (65-70mph) would be a keeper, longer term.

Would be nice to have the under seat helmet storage, but it seems there aren't many SCOOTER choices that can quite hold their own vs motorcycles as far as potential for amazing MPG's at highway/interstate speeds ~

What can match the the 80+mpg (at 65-70mph) that a cbr250r & the old ninja 250 could achieve pretty readily... (I've owned both). Have my mind set on a scooter this time around!


It's easier to limit the discussion to stock vs stock as far as a starting point goes. Of course-I understand that aero can bring significant gains, with associated increase top speed. I personally wouldn't plan on major front end changes or lowering to reduce drag, although an optimized rear tail box would be in the cards for sure as time allows.

Thanks in advance for any experiences, model recommendations, & other input!

I would single-out anything without ABS, at least for the front wheel.

I like ABS too but I'm not fully convinced on it being a must-have. (Budget being the main factor). Certainly ABS would be a solid point if buying new, but on the used market it's hit and miss- mostly miss, as at least in the older model years of say 2000-2019 that I'm (personally) shopping in, if they had abs at all, it was often optional.

pcx150 -- (no abs - maybe on new-ish ones? ) , 13.3hp ~9200rpm 290lbs wet - perhaps aftermarket variator or other aftermarket will allow it to touch 70mph & hold 60-65? will it hold up and produce good mpg's this close to flat out?

xc155 yamaha - (no abs) 14.8hp 9500rpm , 328lb wet

Suzuki Burgman 200 - (yes abs).. not yet seeing availability on the used market,

SH150i Honda rare usa (no abs ) 15.5hp 300lbs wet

Keep in mind I'm personally not going to discuss models that are brand new or very limited in availability -

It would likely can take serious hunting or extending my radius to find many/any used possible examples that might have abs/(abs option) ,

here is one;
kymco like 150i abs .... (top speed more likely 60-mph not much more) , 13.5hp 9000rpm ~(estimate say 285lbs wet)


and just for comparison's sake,

Kymco Like 200i (older) (no abs) 163cc 10.86hp (@7500 rpm) redline maybe 8000ish(?)
~( rough estimate say 285lbs wet) (top speed likely 60- 65 max, maybe)...

Honda Reflex 250 (yes abs optional, carb) 19hp ~390lbs(?) ish, wet

Honda Helix 250 (no ABS, carb) 19hp ~365+/_ ish lbs wet
Honda Elite CH250 (no abs, carb) 19hp 293lbs wet
Honda elite CH150 (no abs, carb) 152cc 9.6hp (@7600rpm ~245lbs wet (rough )
SYM HD200, older (no abs, carb) 171cc 15,3hp 8000rpm (redline?) ~315 maybe wet
Kymco Yager 200i (174cc)
, or Downtown 200i (205cc)
Or People 200i gt (205cc)

Honda PCX160 (yes abs) new only
Honda ADV150 (yes abs, but 2021 & newer so not a real option for me) 294lbs

Piaggio Liberty 150 (yes front abs, on newer models say ~2017+, I'm not sure)
12.9hp 155cc ~255lbs wet (guessing ~65mph ish max speed)

Genuine Buddy 170i ~maybe 265lbs?
Lance 200i (11.6 hp-ish ?)


Vespa (2014+ fuel injected) , Sprint 155cc may have front abs or option I believe?

Aprilla ?

Overall, unfortunately I don't think ABS is the "norm" for these small 150-200cc's yet....(except in Europe of course.....)

maybe there are some I'm missing?

Yes overall big wheels and longer wheelbase will be factors in calling something a "interstate capable" scooter, but I'd (personally) be OK with smaller wheels if I get a flat floor and lighter overall curb weight, but still adequate 65+ mph speed...

So what other fuel injected scooters with good MPG potential UNDER say 275-320lb curb weight and say 13-14hp OR MORE (at the crankshaft) approximate "150-200cc size/range" ...are out there? with or without ABS that is,..

Most of those scooters being imported from countries where ABS at least on the front wheel has been either mandatory for any motorcycle or scooter 125cc and above (it happens in some Asian countries such as Indonesia and Thailand too), or just becoming widespread due to economics of scale, so if you look for 2017 or slightly newer you might be more likely find something with ABS.

Losing a front wheel is less catastrophic than a rear. Sure, you can't recover from it, but you also can't high side due to loss of front traction.

Losing traction from braking on the front wheel almost never happens. I've only ever done that once, and probably never will repeat that mistake again.

I've lost the rear many times, but fortunately have never high sided.

Sand or otherwise loose debris caused front lock up for for me couple times which caused me to go full crash bars. Ymmv

Some top contenders so far
~2016 SMAX xc155 yamaha - (no abs) 328lb wet, 14.8hp, 13"/13" front,back wheel dia
~*2018 Kymco Like 150i abs (267dry,~285 wet, guess) 13.8hp 12"/12"
*not necessarily a ~65mph bike, more like a pcx150 in that it might touch 63-65mph & hold 60mph?
~2012 Kymco Yager 200i (no abs)(308dry maybe ~330 wet, guess) 175cc 15.5hp 13"/12"

Overall ABS would be great but not a dealbraker, for example only one of my last ~10 or so 250cc-400cc motorcycles had ABS and I've managed OK. ABS did start showing up in this size range around ~ 2017+ or a little earlier, BUT not all models have it ESPECIALLY 150-200cc.

Sure, if it were $200-$400 extra for ABS - easy choice, I'd pay the extra.
But if the extra cost to track down a USED, otherwise equivalent scooter with ABS is $1000-1500 additional, on a segment of scooters that sold for $3200-$5000 new... not such an easy choice.
So the used market looks like this:
w/ ABS 150-200cc = used asking price ~75% of new price, not many "priced to sell"
non-ABS 150-200cc, fuel injected = used price 50% or below new price, more choices


Overall (USA market) not until new/updated models around 2020+ does ABS seem to be "commonplace".. Most people in the states buy scooters/motorcycles as toys vs the rest of the world where they are utilitarian/commuters. (Americans are not necessarily thinking of riding 'em in the rain, & price point often being a deciding factor).

Fuel injected started showing up around ~2010+ so there are more potential 'good deals' out there that still meet my criteria


The following .....also seem like possible options that could maintain the ~65mph realistic cruising speed that IS a MAIN DECIDING FACTOR for me.......
-SYM hd200/rv200 (carb'd ~169cc?) -not sure but maybe new similar ones are FI
-Other Kymco models? including a 205cc (People GT 200i/similar, new-ish) (heavier)
-Genuine 170i & 220i
-Suzuki Burgman 200 (abs), (heavy @ ~360lbs wet)


Aprilla?, Vespa?, Piaggio?, Lance (Sym)? Others?

Sunday in the afternoon I took a closer look at a Vespa VXL 150 while I was taking the dog for a walk. One of the first thing I noticed was an ABS decal on the front fender. Not so sure how comfortable I would be to ride it in a freeway.

Only valid vespa experience was watching them in Italy where they have all sorts of odd covers for riding in the rain and cold. Most look like blankets made of a naugahyde sort of waterproof cover with padding attached or gauntlets for your hands and arms.

Vespa is rated for California freeways? Suicide machine then. There was a review in the WSJ this weekend from the car reviewer who said they could split lanes on the 405 but I thought THAT'S crazy.

Anyone one know if this [apparent] Honda is on topic? The tailpipe looks a little big.
https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...07669760_n.jpg
justacarguy.blogspot.com: this is terrific... if you can do something fun like this, WHY NOT?

(united states) I believe the Vespas in this 150cc size range started getting ABS around ~2014
Despite the small ~ 10/11" wheels, (Vespa Sprint may be 12") Vespas seem to just about hold their own vs similar options on the highway, for example quite a few have been successful on cross country-usa 'scooter cannonball' rides , copy&paste: scootercannonball dot com/history

I love the wacky fairing, and even like the off center headlight, have to say I've never seen anything like that on a scooter but I would ride it & to me it's not far off topic... anyone able to identify the bike it's on? the name or "generic"/"reproduction/type" of the fairing ?

I took a test ride on a ~2012-ish Kymco Yager 200i (fuel injected 175cc) and couldn't quite pull the trigger or negotiate a low enough price to talk myself into that specific bike. On paper it looked about ideal at 174cc 15+hp and around 320-330lb-ish.



I like the idea of being able to stuff a full face helmet under the seat... but this example felt like it wanted to cut out/stumble a little at the top end of rpm range- and as a result I'd say this particular example topped out about ~63mph flat ground and ~55-60mph top speed- on slight uphill. Not bad but the reviews I read made it sound like I would see 70. It's possible that new belt or rollers could still make the yager a solid contender.

So I'm back to square one comparing the pcx150 , newer kymco like 150i, other similar 'newer' kymco options- like /people /move etc... and from what I read online - maybe I should be open to a sym hd200 or rv200 (carb) if one pops up locally. I'd like to sit on a Yamaha smax xc155 as well, but I'm leaning towards something maybe a tad lighter weight = something that's NOT going for as much of the maxi scooter style.

To give up shifting (cbr250r, tu250x, sym wolf 150, or ninja 250, with a top case) I would require something else that's in the same class of "fun" around town as the ch150 honda elite circa 1990 & pcx150 in terms of zippyness upto 40mph. For example on the test ride- The above 'Ager' 200i did not disappoint but didn't impress me.

Would a "normal" motorcycle, with some automatic clutch kit such as those from Rekluse, be totally out of question?

Wanting to try something different, always had motorcycles -never really had a scooter except for a few project/fixers that I didn't hold onto for long, like that Elite 150 years ago. Mainly looking for city/around town- BUT need ability to jump on the interstate for upto 5-10 miles, or more.

Scooter gets significant bonus points for hauling capacity- both "groceries" AND passengers-scooters have much better passenger comfort (under ~200cc range).

Of course a Craig Vetter style Ninja could have quite the hauling/storage capacity.. and if I found a GREAT deal on a honda cbr250r or sym wolf 150cc (or new-ish 200cc, a few different brands have recent models) - I might not be able to resist

I don't think I would get an automatic motorcycle, personally the argument towards scooter is not about shifting. Nothing against automatics, I'm sure they have a place- I just haven't been too impressed w/ examples I've experienced so far = vintage 400cc hondamatic or a newer Chinese cheapo-125-'sportsbike'

The Piaggio MP3 250 will go over 70 mph (Claimed 77 mpg) and has been sold for more than a decade so it is available used. I used to see them in the $1500 - $2000 range. I have a MP3 500 that I bought for $2800 a few years ago. It runs 90 mph but I've only averaged 58 mpg. I would think the 250 would do better.

The MP3's are heavy but don't feel it from the saddle. They are also a dream to move around with the tilt lock.

Kymco like 150i 284lbs 13.7hp 12"wheels
pcx150 286-295(?)lbs 13.4hp 14"wheels
hd200 sym ~320?lbs 15.5hp 16"wheels
xc155 smax 328lbs 14.8hp 13"wheels
sh150i (Honda, 2010) 302lbs 15.5hp 16"wheels

Motorcycles..
sym wolf 150 266lbs 14.7hp
cbr250r 366lbs 22hp
tu250x 328lbs 16hp
Nighthawk 250 (~2008) 318lbs 20hp? (2cyl though..not as likely to be a fuel economy winner)

So going back to the 'commonly repeated adage' that '250cc is the minimum for freeways' ok --- 250cc scooters are not out of the question-- and often 250 can mean ~230cc or etc so not necessarily a big difference...

So what are the 'lightest' 250 scooters?
1985-88 Honda Elite CH250 293lb 18hp 10"wheels

...any other 250 scooters worth a significant second look?

I'm sure MP3 are great machines but in no way 'small' or 'lightweight'.., I've sat on one and- can't quite get into a 3-wheeler myself, (isn't that just extra rolling resistance?!)

The 3rd wheel means it is very difficult to lose the front end. When one front wheel hits a slick spot, patch of gravel, etc the weight and grip transfers to the other wheel and you continue on your way instead of sliding off into a ditch. A nice feature for riding all year in someplace rainy like the PNW.

So long as the single wheel is in back, you're good to go.

I didn't mention fully automatic, just an automatic clutch. You know, similar to what is used in the Honda Cub. There are some companies such as Rekluse that make automatic clutch kits for motorcycles. Still needs to shift, yet not having to worry about the clutch might make it more comfortable and even safer around traffic.

One wheel in the back - AND - leans like a motorcycle. The 3-wheeled snowmobiles with wheels lean the wrong way in a turn.

The Rekluse kits are slick - best of both worlds. Manual control of gear shifts without the hassle of the clutch

I'd love to get to ride a MP3 250, don't get me wrong.

I'm more attracted to the most minimal , 2 wheeled option I can find, personally. If I were leaning towards a motorcycle, - that might likely look like a sym wolf 150.. (Honda cb125/cg125 type @150cc, air cooled, carb)

I'll have to worry about getting a bike (when really I do want a scooter- that would therefore mean a scooter & a bike-not the worst thing in the world I suppose), dial in the gearing for highway speed/rpms on the bike- then I suppose the Rekluse kit etc might seriously become an option. Like an early vw?, MB sprinter, or smart car transmission...crude but fun-- gotcha. But I don't know, I like shifting even around town.. Despite the plastics, the 6-speed trans of a cbr250r for example really stood out on my memory vs most anything else at the time, which for 250cc's & under were mostly 5-speeds pre ~2020's

It's sad that Arcimoto's travails have them putting the Cybertrike on a back burner. It's an exercycle/electric carver/scooter.

You still have to shift a bike with a Reklue clutch kit - you just don't have to clutch. It replaces the regular wet clutch pack with a centrifugal clutch. Twist the throttle and go, then change gears up and down as necessary. Closest thing I can think of is the auto clutch on the old Honda Trail 90's (and the new Trail 125)

Almost every horizontal-single Honda, still based on the Cub, feature it. AFAIK only the Asian XRM 125 and the Brazilian Pop 100 (carburettor-fed) and 110i still have a manual clutch now.

In the USA the Honda sells the Grom and Monkey with a manual clutch while the Cub and Trail have an autoclutch. They all have the same 125cc single.

I'd still love to figure out the closest possible SCOOTER to, for example the sym wolf 150cc motorcycle (150cc cg150 honda type, 14.7hp, 60-65mph , carb, 266lbs & mediocre fuel economy)

The super cub 125 (240lbs 9hp?) - is obviously a performer and looks much better than a grom for example.

I think I'd be happy with the kymco like 150i or the honda pcx150/adv150.. Will report back when I buy one! I've all but ruled out the sym hd200 (carb'd), and a few others from that 2000's era, as old technology.

If anyone reading this ever comes along and has any other scooter suggestions , I'd love to take a serious look at ANY other model/brand "lightweight" 150-225cc or "good power to weight" 125-250cc scooters
*that can hold 55-60mph , ....thanks in advance!

I've totally forgot about the Grom. About the Cub, AFAIK it had an automatic clutch instead. I knew some previous versions of the Monkey had an automatic clutch at least...

Consider the Yamaha YZF R15 v3 2021, it is superior to Honda CBR250R or any petrol motorcycle.

The reason the r15v3 is superior is the Variable Valve Actuation which offers efficiency at maximum power over 8000rpm as well as efficiency at 4000rpm.

In stock form it achieved 44km per litre (better than 40km/litre of Honda NBC110 and 35km/litre of Honda CBR125R).

With a tail box I am getting 48km/litre. In around town driving. On a highway trip of 160km with speeds 80km-120km per hour I averaged 42km/litre in stock form no tuck.

Variable Valve Actuation like fuel injection is an advancement in motorcycle engine technology which is no doubt why it is prevalent in cars.

I bought mine in 2021 right before ABS was mandated for new vehicles and it appears ABS plus inflation has increased the price from $4800 to $6299 which is insane.

The YZF-R15 is fairly uncomfortable resulting in persistent back and hand pain typical of race style motorcycles. My next project will fix this failure of design.

ps: Forget any scooter with a CVT they cannot compete with a geared motorcycle on efficiency.

In my country, most motorcycles below 250cc are still available without ABS.