Sachs Madass 125 ?
 

I'm looking for a bike to start a build on, a bike somewhat similar to Ironside's Honda on this thread http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...0-a-27945.html.

I can get a CT 110 Honda here but some of them are pretty flogged and rather used. I've been wondering if there was an alternative and came across the Sachs Madass 125. It's pretty similar to the Honda with just a little more power , improved suspension and a disc front brake. I can buy one for about the same money as a Honda CT 110 and at lower mileage.

If anyone has an opinion either way I'd like to hear it ...... especially Ironside.:thumbup:

I don't think I'd get the seat as low as the Ironside Honda but close.

A couple of links.2010 Sachs MadAss 125 First Look - Motorcycle USA

2007 Sachs Madass 125

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282.../409391411.jpg

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282.../409391410.jpg

''Dual disc brakes stop the MadAss 125, a 260mm rotor front and 215mm rotor rear. Low-profile tires (90/90 front, 120/80 rear) adorn the 16-inch cast aluminum wheels. The seat rests at a rather tall 33.7 inches off the ground at the rear arm of the frame. The frame also stores the 1.22-gallon fuel capacity, with claims of 85-110 mpg efficiency from the 209-lb gas-sipping design. ''
2010 Sachs MadAss 125 First Look - Motorcycle USA

is something of a disadvantage but moving it forward would drop it a few inches.

No contest, this beats the C90 hands down
The motor should be ideal and the frame construction looks as though modification will be much simpler. Plus you have decent brakes to start with!
My first thought to get a lower seating position would be a longer swing arm as per Alan Smith on Craig Vetter's website.
I hope you go ahead and look forward to following the thread if you do
Regards
Pete

The brakes are the main attraction !

I've seen them around, and thought they looked interesting. After doing some internet research I'm not so sure.

It's not very clear where they are made, but it looks like China. The quality is about the same as most of the Chinese minis - inconsistent at best.

Components, like brakes, look good, but may not function as well as you expect.

I'd look into reliability, and getting parts, before jumping on one.

That's a nice bike, but for an eco-oriented project I'd still rather get some more conventional Cub-like model which could get the seat lowered more easily (considering those more recent ones with all-plastic fairings and underseat storage).

I think you have a point, I've just done a bit of looking and there is a gearbox problem that shows up occasionally and the local distributor has gone broke and been taking over by another company.
Parts are available though.
Made in China.
A 4 speed box with a manual clutch which is good.
The CT110 would be easier to get a low seat height with.

I freely admit discs front and rear were the main attraction.

Thinking.

I looked at some CT90's, and i got concerned about taking it past 55mph with good streamlining. It would be perfect for maximum mpg as a rural commuting vehicle with 55mph speed limits. I could practically pick it up with one arm, and the tires are nice and skinny. But taking a low speed bike past it's limits awakened a self preservation instinct.

As far as new bikes, the SYM Symba is the best candidate. Front disks, telescopic forks, chain drive, swing arm not integrated into transmission. A bit bigger than a Honda Passport. But the other options can be found much cheaper. And do you want to buy a new bike when you dont need any of the stock body panels?

I've looked into a Rebel 250. Which is good cause it's a highway capable machine right out. It has the lowest stock seat height of anything i cold find at 26.6 inches. (i pm'ed Theo, and he said the seat height of their modified Innovas is 20inches., Stock seat height ~30inches). So yeah, losing 6.6inches could be doable. The one thing i don't like is the rear tire. It's so fat, which is bad aerodynamically if you want to streamline. Having the widest width tire at the backis bad for tapering. But what kills me is imagining the rolling resistance of that tire! Also the front tire is 18 inches, which isn't as good if you want to enclose the thing lock to lock.

I really like the Honda Nighthawk 250. Skinny tires, and better smaller diameter tires. No disk brakes in US though. Seat height is 29.7 inches compared to 26.6 of the Rebel.

Compromise compromise!

SD, the Madass has a few advantages, half decent suspension if soft in front, discs front and rear which I really like. If I build this machine it needs to be freeway capable, not that I intend to use it on the freeway much but that means being able to sit on 100km /60mph and also stop from that speed.

90 km/hr is my normal cruising speed but occasionally I need more.

The seat height is the main problem, moving the seat down and forward would gain maybe 4" /100mm with a FF position but it's still tall.

The CT110 is much better in this concern. Mechanically.... suspension, brakes and manual 4 speed I like the Madass ... but height wise the Honda is better .

It's a bit of a problem!

The Symba 100 looks like a Honda 90 clone .... are there any differences ?
2011 SYM Symba 100

I would be concerned about spending all of the time and expense to build a custom aero-cycle on a less than decent platform.

There's enough work involved to do the modifications that you wouldn't want to deal with mechanical and reliability issued due to poor design and build quality.

I think that could be a real issue if you start with something that has a questionable reputation.

You could eventually do such upgrades like the increased engine size and disc brakes in a Honda-based project motorcycle, but it would require less frame mods which seem to be a more critical point regarding safety (and bureaucracy).

You are correct. I had a good look at a CT110 yesterday and it does have a better frame for the job but the brakes are uninspiring. I'm going to see if I can find a front disc at least that will fit.

Remember: retrofitting a front disc brake is always easier than a rear disc brake in a motorcycle originally fitted only with drum brakes. Is the Honda Wave 125 available in Australia? :D

Its not a model sold in Australia I would have to get it through ADRs which would cost more than the scooter is worth which is a pity as it's just about the right spec.

Hi PeterS,
Sorry for the delay in reply, I've been away for a few days.

The first observation is, how will you lower the seating position (necessary for a number of reasons) without modifying the frame?. You've already told us there may be a problem with your vehicle licencing authority.
An 'underbone' frame won't need modifying.

Secondly, small wheels will do nothing for stability, if that's not an issue then it might be easier to start with a Chinese clone scooter.

There is a HUGE worldwide aftermarket for the Honda stepthru models, pretty much anything you need, from complete motors, uprated suspension and brakes to that little rubber widget are easily available. Plus you would have access to any any number of secondhand spares. There must be tons of scrapped postie bikes laying around.

There seems to be a little lack of faith with regards to the handling and braking of these little stepthu's, well I'd like to say ' don't knock it 'till you've tried it '. I am a motorcyclist with almost 50 years of riding experience, and have owned and ridden hundreds of different bikes in that time, so I think I'm qualified to comment.

Set up correctly, the handling and braking are adequate for speeds up to 70 mph., bearing in mind that normal cruising speed would be between 50 and 60, and if I wanted to get my knee down I'd buy an R1. It's different horses for different courses, it depends on your needs.

The Sym and other Chinese copies are what they are, copies. They are not Hondas, you could be forgiven for assuming they are the same because they look the same, they are not !.

Finally, if you decide to use a Honda stepthru platform for your build, I'll probably be able to offer advice because I've been there and done it.

Regards
Ironside.

If you can't get any front-wheel disc brake setup in an underbone platform from Honda, you may want to take a look at the brakes of a CBR 125 or a XR 125.

OK, you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks Ironside.

As you say, you've done it and if you think all's well, so be it. I admit that the brakes were my main concern in that all the postie bike around here travel at 25 to 30 mph not 50 to 60 mph..

Since one of the eco-driving rules is to avoid using the brakes, it may not make sense at all to upgrade them :D

The question of brakes is the need for one quick stop vs repeated braking on an eco-bike. Lowering the seat height means you are less likely to be thrown over the handle bars by a strong front brake. Disc front and drum rear is common enough. Proportioning can be adjusted based on weight distribution and tire sizes.

Don't even think about it.
 

A good friend of mine owned a Sachs Madass. The worst bike he has ever owned. It suffers from bad engineering, assembly and sub par quality parts. In the rain the speedometer stops working. A seal on the kick start pops and leaks oil, common issue. Forums report bolts falling off, like the bolts on the wheel axels and swing arm.

Keep far far away from it..

Look at the Honda Grom. Check the forums. Even if you can't purchase one new, you can still purchase the engine with all the components to make it run, used on the forums. My friend replaced the Madass with the Grom, 3,000+ miles and no issues, all stock.

Keep looking.

A friend of mine had one. The electrics weren't that good, lots of problems with the digital speedometer. The engine is a chinese brand, like Lifan.. And if I remember the frame was aluminium, so not easy to modify like a Honda Cub. I would chose a Honda (Cub/ct/st) over a Madass

ThanksGil ... I have been warned off !

Consider a Lifan engine...
 

I bought a semi-automatic 125 Lifan motor off of eBay a few years ago and put it into my Honda Passport for use as transport at the races. The next thing I knew I found myself riding it more and more including trips from Indy to Chicago and Mammoth Cave. These little motors are very powerful and stone reliable to boot.

For someone considering the construction of a high MPG bike from a Honda step-through chassis I highly recommend these motors. Mine is jetted "fat" with a $31 Mikuni from eBay for best performance and I only get 80 MPG out of it. With tall gearing I've seen 63 MPH on the GPS and with the current gearing (17/37) it will cruise all day long at near 50 MPH with a top speed of almost 60. Other than oil changes and valve checks it has required no other repairs and continues to perform flawlessly.

For best MPG I would think a manual clutch would be superior but the semi-auto clutch may not be that much of a detriment and defintely makes it easy to ride.

At least in the U. S. step-through chassis for CT-90/110's are common and cheap. The rest of the bike can be built from parts bought on eBay or Craigslist.

The best thing about the Lifan 125 semi-auto motors? In the U. S. you can have one on your doorstep for $280!!!

I guess this engine is fitted with a 4-speed transmission. A 5-speed one could likely be more of an improvement regarding fuel-efficiency than a manual clutch...

Agreed. Sadly the only five-speed available for this type of motor is a very high end Japanese aftermarket unit, if it's still available. I think it was offered by Takegawa, a manufacturer of high performance parts for these little motors.

The best part about the Lifan is that it has plenty of power to overcome any gaps in the ratios and has a wide RPM operating band. I can't say enough good about them especially for the money. One of the biggest advantages over a stock Honda is that they're set up for 12v.--only the last two years of the Passport in the U. S. had a 12v. system. The rest used that pathetic 6v. system that was marginally reliable at best. My Passport has excellent light output and I think I read somewhere that the stator puts out around 90 watts. I wired mine up to use an electric vest and with the lights off it gets HOT!! Obviously running without lights is marginally legal and won't do you any good at night but it's still nice to feel the heat put out by this little motor's stator.

Too bad that dual-range system which was fitted to the Australian Post Honda CT-110 was not avaliable in any other motorcycle fitted with the Cub engine. One can easily guess 8 gears could be a bigger improvement to efficiency than 5 :D

Woodsrat, is the output all dc or split ac/ dc like the CT 110 ?

It's AC and I use a $15 generic voltage regulator I get from Tucker Rocky to keep from overpowering the lights. I made my own simplified wiring harness and don't run a battery. I'm using an $8 Harbor Freight rubber tractor light on the front and a $10 LED tail light from eBay. The lights dim a tiny bit at an idle but as soon as I give it any throttle at all they get nice and bright. I work the second shift and come home through the country where it's really dark but the tractor light gives me plenty of light. A friend has the same setup on his step-though but runs two of them side-by-side for a "Baja" look and they work great.

I've used this setup for two years and it's been stone reliable with absolutely no failures.

Thanks Woodrat, I've heard lots of negative stories about the life of Lifan engine so this is good, the all dc charging is especially good news .:thumbup:

Quoting Sheepdog 44 - "But taking a low speed bike beyond it's limits awakened a self preservation instinct in me."
It does in me, too. When you are going into a knife fight, carrying your best 2" blade is not going to get the job done. Any decent road with a 55 mph speed limit will be crowded with SUV's. all doing 70 and only a few angry enough at the world to want to see how close they can come to your rear bumper without hitting you and, oops, they wish they could get a DoOver as you disappear under their front end.
So let me help you stay around. My suggestion for a low seat, strong machine that is available in the $500-$1500 dollar range would be the Suzuki S40, known as the Savage or Boulevard. A single cylinder 650cc bike with mpg in the low 50's AND A TOP SPEED OF 85 STOCK with a disc/drum brake system. Comes with an unmodified seat height of 28 inches AND a length sufficient for a reclined rider. With streamlining, it should give both a higher top speed and at least 80 mpg, probably much better.
And, even better than that, it will let you meet your grandchildren.
I wish you success, and good fortune, with your enterprise.
Bob

I won't be riding the freeway, there are enough good secondary roads to keep me happy.

I think the Suzuki S40 is way too big for a project like this. A Honda Rebel, CBR250R, or, 125R if you wanted a "big" bike like the Vetter Streamliners. The Honda PCX150 will do 100 mpgUS at 50 mph right out of the box and has a top speed 65 mph.

PeterS,
The motorcycles Sendler mentioned have high seats due to the equestrian-like riding position. HOWEVER,when I looked up his scooter suggestion, the PCX150, altho it has a 29.9" seat height, it has two advantages. It's frame has a very nice slope at the seat so looks to be easy to "recline". And it has a start on some serious fairing that could be extended rather than replaced. Good job, Sendler!
Bob

The output from the Lifan stator is AC--you'd need to rectify it for DC charging. AC works fine for lighting and, in my case, powering an electric vest. It makes for a very simple and lightweight electrical system.

The issue of mass and safety is not as straight forward as we have been lead to believe. Design geometry and material selection are crucial to building a crashworthy design. Our state has a minimum seat height law. Passenger car seats are typically 20" from the ground. The rider's back angle has a big effect on frontal area so you can lean forward or lean back and get similar results. For those of us concerned about crash safety I plan a body made of honeycomb aluminum. I have a supply of .355" panels. A bright paint job, lots of lights, dual mirrors,and an inertial reel lap belt round out the package.
With a low drag body and gearing to match, keeping up on traffic should be possible. A low nose and high tail seem to be most stable but more could be done. Don't skimp on brakes or tires.

OK, the same as the CT110, it would need a bridge rectifier and perhaps a capacitor or 2 in line to run LED spots , that being the point of a dc supply for me. I have them on my current bike and they are wonderful!

I'll base my bike on a CT110, largely because they are relatively cheap and have a great spare parts supply, they're ex postie bikes here.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL28.../409913314.jpg

With one of those I can get a reasonably low feet forward seating position as per these photos of Ironside's excellent bike. I think that apart from reducingthe frontal area and making fitting a decent fairing easier it will also be a very comfortable position for long rides.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL28.../409913316.jpg

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL28.../409913315.jpg

I rarely see those ones nowadays, but it's still one of my favorites on its class.

The disadvantages of a high tail for stability in crosswinds were hashed through in this thread starting about here:
.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post279939
.
We can talk about it over there if you like.

Okay, will do.