Saw first non-hybrid (Malibu) with engine stop/start. Why do people hate stop/start?
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1468436241

Driving out of Toronto today with the windows down, I rolled up beside a new-looking Chevy Malibu stopped at a traffic light. When the light turned green I heard its conventional starter motor light up the engine and thought, "oh that's interesting -- maybe he's doing it with the key."

But at the next light when it shut down again I realized there was almost no delay between start-up and when the car started driving away -- no pause to account for shifting from N to D.

Which made me realize... it must be automatic stop/start.

And that's the first time I've seen that feature in the wild that wasn't on a hybrid.

Someone posted a start/stop Malibu demo on YouTube. Jump to 0:35 if you're impatient. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvkAe1vLnj4

Technical overview of the system below. I didn't realize the car had a secondary, smaller 12v battery that powers the car ONLY during the "restart" phase. And the car has a larger capacity glass mat battery for more power & durability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Omyzb1CkW8

I like when GM calls something "new technology" when japan had it as far back as the late 90s.
The ones in japan would automatically start back up when the brake is released.
But Americans didn't want it because the car's air conditioner doesn't work while the engine is off.

Yup, I think all of the 13-15 Malibus (with the 2.5) had that... My co-worker has one and doesn't care for the auto start/stop(probably because it kills the A/C at a light)...

Pretty sure I've heard some recent BMW's doing this.

The thing is: I'm sure you can override the AC issue. If you choose one particular AC setting, it lets auto stop/start work, but if you select another, it keeps the engine on.

The amount of consumer resistance to this in North America is pretty significant, if you go by comments on auto blog sites and forums. Representative of the general public though? I dunno.

I like this, if people are upset about it then they probably need their value systems changed. Or they live in Arizona.

I had this on my previous car (Mercedes) which I just changed. The replacement car doesn't have it and I do miss it, even though it didn't always work as I expected it to. Going back to manually stopping and re-starting the engine seems somewhat stressful after being used to it being done automatically. Not sure if the Merc stopped the AC when the engine stopped; I very rarely use AC so never noticed.

Unless the Merc had an electric motor-driven AC compressor, then it probably also shut the air conditioning off when the engine stopped. For brief stops, even in very hot weather, this wouldn't be a problem.

I rarely use the air myself. But I can see it being a problem for people who are sensitive to the heat. (Or it gets much hotter than it does here! 32C / 90F yesterday is getting up to our summer high temps.)

My boss was in town yesterday and she took us to lunch in her rental car. Jeep SUV, grand Cherokee? It had an auto stop feature and she proceeded to complain about how she hates it, her personal car has it too and she turned it off, etc. So I ask her why she doesn't like, she doesn't have to do anything different and it saves fuel. Her response, "I don't care, I don't like it."

That's it, no legitimate reason. Nothing. She just doesn't like it so she went out of her way to stop it from working.

Save gas? Less pollution? Nope, don't like it.

I wanted to tell her how stupid I thought she was being but I value being employed and resigned myself to being quietly very very annoyed.

Maybe she just couldn't articulate why it bothers her?

I think I could guess: an engine that stops running unexpectedly? That's a BAD THING (TM) -- I can see that putting fear into a person who doesn't understand the feature or is generally nervous about their safety.

In a lifetime of driving conventional vehicles, an engine that stops running unexpectedly indicates the beginning of a stressful, possibly dangerous and probably expensive situation. It may be hard to overcome that.

Another source of unease: you want to scoot across the intersection but the engine is currently off? That's another BAD THING (TM).

It's the antithesis of remote start systems which promote many, many hours of quality idling time and evidently people just love the **** outta that. :rolleyes:

My in-laws use remote-start on their Prius all the time; it runs for a few minutes, then the engine shuts off and it sits there draining the battery for a while.

There's an awesome observation right there! :D

Out of the mouths of babes...

I believe being able to safely control a vehicle with the engine cut off should be part of the driving test.
Auto start/stop is new and the vehicle turning off all by its self is scary to ignorant people. So the average and below average American consumer is afraid of what they don't understand.

On another note I'm reminded of all the "Oh my god a seat belt. LET ME JUST CUT IT OFF WITH A RAZOR TO FIX IT AND GET IMPALED ON THE STEERING COLUMN!" crap in about 1970.*

*I wasn't born for over 20 years after that, I've only read accounts of this.

I've had experience with start/stop technology on Priuses, a VW Golf and a Volvo V40. I hate the systems! Mostly because they're automated and I know better than a computer when to shut off or start an engine.

Believe it or not, that was part of the curriculum when I was an instructor. The student had to be able to restart an auto trans car in motion. Depending on how far along they were, I might randomly "stall" the car on them after that.

It wasn't on the government test though.

I love the idea of auto stop, but you remind me that I had an amusing experience next to a Mercedes a few weeks ago. Waiting at a light in my civic with the engine off, a white new or nearly new Mercedes next to me was also off. But the driver creeped forward a few inches maybe 4 or even 5 times in anticipation of the light changing. Each time he moved, the engine turn on and then off. Meanwhile I sat there, the cyborg ecu, shut down and waiting for the light to actually turn green.

The driver is the most important engine control unit.

Er, are there no Mercs or BMWs or Porsches where you live? All of them have been equipped with start-stop for at least a few years.

None where I live, except for maybe a doctor or executive passing through. Otherwise it's all Suburbans, Silverados, and Cadillacs.

There are some around... but I've never noticed a non-hybrid auto start until this week.

You're obviously not familiar with Northern Arizona. I live 14 miles from a ski area. I rarely use AC in my vehicles.

In automatic vehicles, stop-start tech means that there's a delay for the vehicle to begin moving (to start the engine) when lifting off the brake pedal. That could be very, very disconcerting to someone used to how automatics drive. (Note that most hybrids (the ones capable of moving under solely electric power) are another story, as they can begin rolling under electric power immediately.)

Manuals, it's actually less intrusive - the engine stops when you put it in neutral and lift off the clutch, and restarts when you press the clutch pedal. So, by the time you've got 1st engaged, and you're releasing the clutch, the engine should be running.

In my previous car pushing the brake pedal hard whilst stationary would hold the car in position even after releasing the pedal (as if the handbrake were on) and the automatic stop/start would shut off the engine. Then just press the accelerator to start the engine and drive away. Obviously there was some delay whilst the engine started but this was very short - basically instant - and it never really registered. Certainly not a problem.

If not using the "automatic hold" function of the brakes, but manually holding the car in position with a lighter pressure on the brake, lifting off the brake would start the engine as you describe. I never liked the way that worked and usually avoided it.

I went to the canyon in February one year and saw the crater around the same time. The canyon was covered in snow at the top. I know it gets cold up north, but don't most people live in Phoenix and Tucson?

Flagstaff is a 'university' city and the 3rd populous in state.

Yes. And a number of people who graduate from NAU choose to stay in Flagstaff if they can find a "real" job in Flagstaff.
I moved to Flagstaff when I was 5 years old. (I had no choice in the matter; my parents moved here.):D
I found a real job during my junior year at NAU. November 12th will be my 37th anniversary at this job.
I haven't been to Phoenix since January, 2007; never been to Tucson. I plan to visit the Pima Air Museum some time in the future.

As for snow in Arizona... I skied 67 days this past ski season. :D

Residences: Yuma, Flagstaff, Tucson.

To me, Flagstaff should've been named Babbitt-ville because their name was on just about every building when I was there (1962-1963).

I dunno about that, in my experience with German cars I've sat in or driven, the engine starts extremely fast, and it starts if you slightly let off the brake, so in practice the engine is already spinning by the time your foot is off the brake, and the car is already moving forward.

I never drove any vehicle fitted with start-stop, but it's easily noticeable from the outside when the system engages and disengages. But I don't believe it would upset me if I were driving a car fitted with it.

What I'd like to see is a button for EOC to come with the cars, or maybe for them to EOC automatically -- quick shift into neutral and then the engine dies if you're already at speed and you release the accelerator for more than a second or it detects you're going down a hill or something.

I rented a 2015 Malibu for a week. The only weird thing was when I stop in a parking spot, it shut off, when I shift to park, it starts so I can turn it off.
It got worse mileage than a 2014 Altima 2.5cvt.
Malibu 32 mpg average, Altima 37 average.

I've driven one of these Malibus.

I'm not adverse to having the engine to turn off and on, I do it manually on my Civic all the time. But I don't like it turning off and on when I don't understand why. And I don't like having the engine off when I want to get moving.

Switching quickly from stopped to accelerating, it takes just a moment for the engine to start and then it lurches awkward. I thought this was awkward and can see this as a reason to dislike the system. Changing my habits slightly eliminated the lurching completely.

Sometimes while stopped, the engine would start again. I never figured out why exactly. It was probably something I was doing, but I'm not sure what.

In the Insight, the engine will restart without releasing the brake if 1) battery voltage gets too low, or more commonly 2) if there isn't enough vacuum for braking.

Agreed - I would want the system to work predictably. If it shuts off when I'm not expecting or doesn't when I am, it bugs me somewhat.

The same applies to the Prius and my parents' Civic hybrid.

Maybe to drive the air-conditioner and keep the cabin temperature, or to not leave the engine get too cold to make a restart more difficult.

As someone who works on stop/start systems, there are a variety of reasons that people don't like them. In short, they are as follows:

1. Loss of certain power assistance features. On cars equipped with hydraulically assisted steering/braking systems rather than electrically-assisted ones, turning the engine off often means losing those power assistance features.

2. Loss (or weakening) of certain comfort features such as A/C, and the like.

3. From the engineering side, one of the major problems is the NVH caused during start-up/shut-down of the driveline. Furthermore, because of the manner in which ICEs function the combustion cycle may stop at any number of different positions during an auto shut-down. As a result, the engine may effectively be flooded in one or more cylinders, it may have an incomplete combustion event on auto-start, and so on. The results of each of these is a lag in start-up and significant NVH.

Depending on the software controls, some of these effects can be mitigated, but frankly, because there are only so many things you can do to speed up an ICE's starting procedure, there will always be some additional NVH and/or lag between start-up and the shut-down state.

A buddy had one as a rental in Vegas. It was 4 cylinder impala with stop start. I was ok with it, he hated it with a passion. I had a 4 cylinder turbo charged mustang convertible rental at the time and I did significantly better mpg than him, probably mostly his level of anger with the Chevy though.

I have a 2014 Ford Mondeo diesel. It has start stop, and even tough I was sure I wouldn't like it, it turned out to be quite ok.

I have a manual so I can choose to not put it in idle if it's just a quick stop and the engine will not stop.

For starting "for no reason" i've noticed if it's hot outside it will start after a short while to keep the A/C going. It's just at the point when I start to feel it's getting a bit hot, the engine starts and the A/C kicks in.

There's some instances though that annoys me, stopping to get the mail, the engine first stops, but then after I open the door it will not automatically start again so I have to start it manually, which feels awkward when I have not turned it off, like it would have stalled.

I bought a 2008 Malibu Hybrid new in 2009. The belt-alternator-starter is what they called it on that one. When you had the AC in the correct setting and came to a stop, the engine shut off {along with no compressor operation for the AC} and the AC's fan kicked up to full speed to help with the illusion of staying cool. When I lifted my foot from the brake pedal the B-A-S restarted the car so it could go immediately. I enjoyed the start stop feature of the car more than anything else. However, IIRC, the maximum length of time you could sit before the engine restarted was 90 seconds.

Two memories come to mind about that whole setup.

First, I tried to slip my foot off the brake and smash the gas as fast as I could to see if I could beat the restart. I could not. Maybe others are faster that me, but I was trying pretty hard to see if I could beat it to the punch.

Secondly, when it wasn't blazing hot and I would be caught at a long light, as soon as it would run out of time and restart, I would ease off the brakes and let the car roll forward a couple feet and stop again to get it to shut down again. It worked for me.

I got rid of it because I just couldn't stand getting 31 mpg on my easy commute. I could do way better than that in the Saturn I had before that.