Should I get an Outback?
 

I hope to use the Avalon for as long as possible. And hopefully by the time it dies used car prices go back to normal.

But what if the Avalon were totaled tomorrow (and I survive)?

In trying to find a car I like it seems that the Subaru Outback is as close as I can find to what I want. Things that are important to me are:

1. Spare tire.
2. Fuel mileage.
3. Safety (the Outback is on the IIHS Top Safety Pick+ list and has a 5 star rating with NHTSA).
4. Can pass the Moose Test.
5. Passenger room (mainly leg room, not head room).
6. Not a RWD (I'd prefer FWD).
7. Towing capacity (or it has to be a pickup).
8. Cargo room. (I like the station wagon style over the CUV style).

The RAV4 Prime came close, but is way more expensive. And last I checked, it wasn't on the IIHS's Top Safety Picks and had a 4 star crash rating. It also lost control in the Moose Test.

Another vehicle in mind is the Ford Maverick, which may get better fuel mileage. I don't need the AWD aspect of the Outback. I did fine today towing around my trailer with a snowblower on it in my Avalon in 8" of fresh snow.

The sad thing is the Outback doesn't get stellar fuel mileage.

Any other good candidates out there?

Doesn’t Subaru have a hybrid now?

I can't seem to find any. I think they're ditching their plug-in hybrids for a full EV version that's in the same price range as a Tesla.

Crosstrek plug in hybrid, if you can find one. Not sure about their reliability.

No.

Subaru isn't the value brand. If financials are tight, stick to the value brands.

As far as I know, Subaru has always had a flawed design with regards to the head gasket and never thought their customers were worthy of having an unflawed design.

I had great luck with my Subaru, but I think I'm in the minority. It didn't have great fuel economy for how weak it was.

It looks like the RAV4 does now indeed pass the moose test, get a 5 star NHTSA rating and is now on the IIHS's Top Safety Pick+ list, at least the hybrid does.

I wonder if it's worth the 3mph highway improvement with the RAV4 hybrid over the non-hybrid as I seem to do a lot more highway driving and don't have long enough town distances to really take advantage of the hybrid system on the Avalon.

Too bad the RAV4 Prime is over $10,000 more than the standard hybrid.

I would think the Avalon is significantly better on short slow trip useage: no warm up inefficiencies, airspeed isn't significant for much drag and possibly a chance for some regen at some point of the trip.

In your case the Rav4 could be the better choice. Decent sized towns are far apart in Colorado. How close is the nearest mega mart?

Yes! Hence:
The Avalon isn't a plug-in hybrid. But I do plug it in every night, I mean I plug in the engine block heater on it.
I think it has terible warm up inefficiencies. Even with the block heater it doesn't seem to help much in terms of fuel mileage. My daily driving is short trips here and there, and most of those show less than 20mpg, sometimes less than 10! I got a 1,500W block heater that I want to try to get temps up to around 175°F before driving off instead of around 30°F more than ambient like the stock block heater. But I also think the NiMH battery probably needs heating too. (Ideally I'd have a plug-in hybrid or an EV for around town and an ICEV for the highway).
Yes! Much better than a RAV4 that has a lower MPG rating on the highway. I hit the highway sometimes only once or twice a week, but when I do it's hundred and hundreds of miles. The Subaru seems like it would be more aerodynamic than the RAV4, but I have no idea if it really is. And when I do I get around 45 to 50mpg in the Avalon!
True.

My Outback experience
 

My extended family has been driving multiple Subarus for about 20 years. I have never had one for my own as a daily though.

Winter driving is top notch. You forget you are even on snow and ice, which can be problematic going into a corner too fast. We never had to get studs on any of our Subarus.

Build quality is good. Yes there is the older Outback head gasket issue. This was mostly due to the factree fabric head gasket which would fail if the coolant wasn't changed like clockwork per spec. The old coolant would go acetic and dissolve the fabric gasket coating. I replaced the head gaskets in my daughter's '99 Outback. Wasn't the worst or hardest job I have done, but the motor had to come out. Replacement head gaskets are steel and don't have this issue. I would bet that the head gasket issue is long gone or they would not be in business in 2023.

The older 1997- 2008 Subaru Outbacks s were notorious for rear oil leaks, which always leak onto the exhaust and you always smell burning oil. There is a plastic oil cooler housing thingy on the back side of the motor that cracks and leaks. They make a steel replacement, but motor has to come out to replace it.

Subaru factree parts are fairly priced compared to other manufacturers. When I replaced my daughters head gasket, I bought every new gasket, seal, belt, and wearable part, timing belt, oil seals, head bolts, etc. from the short block up and still didn't spend $400.

Outbacks do not get very good gas mileage. I have never seen over 28 mpg in an Outback. Maybe brand new ones are better. The transfer case is AWD and does have parasitic drag.

There is no 4wd switch, its AWD all the time. If you get one flat tire, expect to have to buy 4 new tires. The chain tire stores rarely will repair a single flat tire anymore (there is always an excuse why they can't fix yours) and being AWD, your allowance between tires wear is only 2/32" or you will ruin your transfer case. Unless your other 3 tires are new, expect to shell out $600 - $700 in tires every few years.

The inside cargo capacity isn't very good. With two kids, we traded our Outback in to get a mini van, as we didn't have enough cargo capacity for luggage and dogs when traveling. Most Outbacks with four passengers on road trips that I see have a roof top carrier, and that sucks down gas mileage.

Something about the flat 4 they use, is it has no low end torque. It feels if there is really no power below 3,000 rpms in every Subaru 2.5 I have driven. They do pull hard after 3,000 rpms though.

I don't arrive at the "no" suggestion lightly because the car I am most fond of was my 1996 Legacy. Most of that fondness is probably that it was the first car I owned outright, and youth brings with it many memories. It did handle all of the constant abuse I threw at it though.

I don't like how weak Subarus are. I don't like that they don't get good fuel economy despite their weakness. I do appreciate that if you happen to get stuck in one, it's because you've done something fantastically foolish, and now you're really stuck.

They're no more seats in a Subaru than an Avalon. AWD is overrated, because all cars are all wheel corner and brake. How often is the limiting factor that acceleration is insufficient AND good winter tires are installed?

A Subaru is a lateral move, but not even that, because it gets worse fuel economy.

I would only get a Subaru if I were considering to turn it into RWD-only and swap all its drivetrain for a non-stock one. It's not exactly the most reliable family hauler anyway.

I can't find a picture of a Subaru straight-axle gasser, so here's a 1955 Nash:

https://www.hotrod.com/uploads/sites...-alt-2-lpr.jpg
https://www.hotrod.com/uploads/sites...-alt-2-lpr.jpg

Right on! I completely agree! And hence:

I believe a Cruze as well as a Honda Fit would meet all of your requirements. It's rare but there are hatchback Cruzes.

That brings up another thing:

I was thinking about the Subaru because it has a towing rating and a spare tire. But what if I got a car that didn't have either and just bolted on a tow hitch and threw in a spare tire? (Or does have spare tire, but no tow?)

My Avalon doesn't have a tow rating for an example? But the Avalon is used, so there's no way towing will void a waranty. Maybe I could get in an accident and get blamed purely on the fact my car has something it's not designed for, but I highly doubt that would happen. But with a tow hitch on a new car, couldn't the dealer refuse to repair something under waranty stating the waranty is voided due to misuse of the car by towing? How high are the chances of that happening?

If it's not a big deal, then a Camry hybrid would also meet what I'm after. A Prius prime, (if they don't go up $5,000 to $10,000 as some are saying) would be perfect, except the spare tire taking up more lugage space and needing to have it tied down and I'd probably have to get a tow hitch that's way too low.

Warranty lawsuits in other states have pointed out that the repair/device voiding a warranty has to be proved the modification itself caused the failure.

I can bolt on all sorts of goofy add ons, and as long as the tranny fluid isn't burnt in any way, they have to warranty repair it. Other than side stepping a clutch, cant see how you fry a diff. Computer should shut the engine down before it implodes except for my diesels burning lube oil

You're buying a car WITH a warranty?

Hopefully I'm not buying any car.

But in a what-if scenario that I need a car, it all becomes a catch 22.

If I needed a car today, then used car prices seem still very high.

So if they are still very high, then I might as well as buy a new car.

But if I bought a new car, then I'll probably be on an extremely long waiting list if I want it at MSRP. I'd also be caught somewhere between my wants and what I can afford, which may be very slim pickings.

But if I did all that, I sure would hate doing something that ends up throwing all that money and effort away.

Some of the stuff I see online suggest for certain styles of used car prices have returned to pre nosebleed levels. Here I see 30 year old pristine stuff that won't pass smog check going for $500. Good deal if you live in the next county over that doesn't have emission checks.

Gov't here stopped all the classic car exemptions in smog controlled counties.

Ya, it depends on the car.

Looking at 2017 and newer Prius Primes with 50,000 miles on them or less within 500 miles of here the cheapest I can find is $22,000, in another state. There's one for $23,000, then they are all $25,000 and up. A new Prime starts out at an MSRP of $28,000.

I saw an article recently about the best car to buy with the lowest operating costs per mile long term. So, $ spent per mile driven. The cost of the car was included in the analysis.

It was a ten year old prius that was number one on the list to own. Assuming you paid $13k for a 10-year old Prius, it was the cheapest car to own if you look at in terms of $ paid per miles driven over a period of x years. I think the period was ten years. The ten year old prius has very low maintenance and fuel costs and that countered the $13k capital costs to put it to the top of the list.

Now, their study, I believe had a limit on how old the car could be.

In reality, a Geo Metro, or Saturn SL1 or SL2, or older Civic would win the $ per mile contest, but if you can't do the maintenance/repairs yourself and want safety, ABS, air bags, etc. they would not be practical.

Hatchbacks on that size class are becoming rare in general, while sedans still keep a foothold. That's considering markets other than the American anyway. On a sidenote, even though I saw a handful of Cruze taxis in my hometown, I'd take the suitability of a downsized engine for a budget-oriented choice with a grain of salt.

Interesting.

I do have an older Prius (2006) but it has gauling in the cylinders (burns oil as a result), needs a new HV battery, new 12V battery and catalytic converter is shot.

I just found out the Impreza comes with a manual transmission! :)

Not great fuel mileage, the sedan has less lugage room than the Avalon and any Impreza has less rear leg room, but manual transmission!!!!

At least an engine swap is easier once the engine grenades itself, well, unless the transmission goes along...