Is this a silly idea?
 

Hello everyone.

I am new to this section of the forum but have been posting on the automotive side for a while. I had thought about solar and wind turbines for home use and had seen different articles about how some lucky people could actually get their electric meters to "spin backwards" because they were making more juice than they were using. they could then re-sell the "overage" back to the electric utility for a lower rate (IIRC) than they were already buying it for but still saving money on their bill.

My idea was, if yo are going to all the trouble of adding solar and possibly wind then why not add a battery bank (outside the home of course for venting purposes) and another panel to run low draw items such as lighting. That is if you are using CFL or LED bulbs or even possibly using 12v DC bulbs you can find at the RV dealers.

The other idea was to convert the battery bank output to 120v AC and run wire to one half of certain outlets in the home. Some of the stuff we plug in are low draw like alarm clocks reading lamps (with low draw bulbs) phone chargers etc. Why tie this system into the "grid" and re-sell your hard work back to the utility for a lower rate than they charge you when you could use "your" power yourself at 100% savings. Minus the cost of installation of course, but if you are going wind/solar you will already have initial costs anyhow. You'd only be paying the utility for the electricity your high draw items make.

I know there could be some code issues with power from two separately derived systems in the same conduit or box, but if that is the case then just pipe in 2 systems and keep them separate. Of course this would work better on new construction or a total home rip out and remodel.

Is it a silly idea to NOT tie a solar/wind system to the grid? I can't see where the electric utility could complain too much. The water company can't complain if I use collection barrels for some of my water if I am tied to their system and the gas company can't complain if I decide to heat my house on a hybrid geothermal/natural gas system. Why not a hybrid "natural"/utility electrical system?

It would make sense if a significant portion of your generation was going back to the utility company, only to be resold to you at some other point in time. You will have storage cost as well as storage losses to consider in your calculations.

regards
Mech

I use about 100-120 kwH/mo. but with the ****headed regressive billing structure my COOP has, more than half my monthly bill is for the service fee. Even if I were to generate 100% of my power but stay on the grid- for backup or ?- I would only reduce my current (PUN!) bill by less than 50%, or $20-$25/mo.

just what ya need or want!
 

Dont let a Solar salesman talk you into less or more than you need is first rule!

My first idea was to convert the battery bank output to 120v AC and run wire to one half of special outlets in the home. There are alot of different plug end configurations you can get two visually separate systems.

*** Why tie this system into the "grid" and re-sell your hard work back to the utility for a lower rate than they charge *****

Yes that is your best bet use the calculator to add up all systems and factor in a loss of 6% over then build a system that matches your needs.
Or just build enough that you can run some system with it and from batteries Be it lighting or an a/c unit etc. on a designated circuit.
I like the plan to run hall lighting and mabe electric dryer off solar and small windmill, while providing heat or A/C for season use. It is simple to get into and your capable of building up afterwards to more.
Like I said if outlets are added use a t set up plug and receptical for low amperage items that will be allowed in it. or even an inverse prong, there are many configurations beyond the 2 straight slots and a d hole.

I augmented my electric water heater with 2 150, connected well pipes coiled over my back roof. I thought it was going to be a minor expense but add up water grade fittings to bypass into water heater drain from my out back faucett and hose to pipe conversions and hooks to lace it on the roof Ive got 100 bucks into it. I was proud of the system untill I realised that the water was static most of the day and electric was still heating it insid ever so little. Now I need to purchase a circulator or install water heater timer to shut it off. I like circulator alot but there is more expense there and I dont have base board heaters to utilize its other benefit.
Electric bill has dropped $17 a month though and it has nearly paid itself off.
would do better if the kids would bathe from 2 - 6 pm in over 1/2 hour intervals, but thier not into my eco home stuff so much as I.
I am thinking of lacing another 150 feet into it also to get more solar duty from it.
The 1" pipe is cool to touch into water heater after 12 minutes of my eldest son bathing.
yep looks a sauna when he comes out I cant wait till he pays for his own utillities hehehe 2 more years I keep reminding myself.

This is a fair company Im not saying best but fair and knowledgable.
¤ Discount Solar: Your source for low cost, high quality solar panels

Storing excess power in batteries is no solution.
Just today I looked into some LiFePo4 batteries; one unit, 12.8V by 40 Ah including BMS looked promising. Could store half a kWh. Could have 2000 charge cycles. Did cost more than 1.000 kWh would cost, and thats without the DC/AC conversion.
So there you have it; storing energy is good for power outages, but not for saving on total cost.

You can try to match your demand to your production, by having twin thermostat settings on your boiler or fridge, to make them work harder when you have an overage.
Or a smart use mode for the home A/C. Could be a nice Arduino project balancing them all. Well you get the idea.

If you are going to have two separate circuits is there any reason why one of them couldn't be low voltage DC?

A lot of the things we use electricity for already drop the AC mains voltage down to either 12V or 5V DC. PC's run off 12V DC (with an internal voltage regulator) phones and 'i' devices charge at 5V, some of the less expensive TV's run off 12V with a regulator in the power cord.

That would make it safe to DIY and make it clear which devices were running off the PV cells. It would require distinctly different wall sockets so as to avoid confusion and plugging in a 12V device into 110AC.

Battery storage systems make sense only for those who cannot be served by the grid.

Many utilities use "Net Metering", which means your electric meter runs backwards during periods of overproduction, and forward when drawing more than can be generated. You pay the net difference. That is, you pay only for the amount of electricity used over the amount generated by the PV, Wind, etc. This means you are "paid" the full rate for the excess energy generated. Utilities will often limit the amount of energy they will credit you, to the amount actually consumed. Some may pay you at a reduced rate for any excess over the amount consumed.

From a financial and environmental standpoint, battery storage on a grid-intertied system is a bad idea. Remember that batteries are a consumable item that will need replacing, and that charging/discharging them reduces overall system efficiency. Selling energy back to the grid is more efficient, and acts like a battery. You "charge" the grid when producing more than you need, and "drain" the grid when the demands are higher.

A smart setup would size the renewable energy system to produce 100% of the energy consumed in the lowest consumption month. This would theoretically result in 1 month where the electric bill is zero, and all the other months are considerably reduced.

Ha Ha "electric bill is zero"- I think not. See my previous post.

The infrastructure need be there even if you give back just as much as you take. You do use it, your life would be worse if it weren't there.
Just like you do get a phone bill even if you don't make calls at all.

Suppose you have a shop on wheels in a rural area. You build up a client group, drive by their homes every day.
Some of them just look at your stuff but seldom buy anything. Would you keep turning up at their place every day for no charge at all? You'd lose big time on them.
And what will you do if they do take stuff off your hands when they need it, but bring it back a few days later and demand a full refund, time and time again?

My electric bill was zero for the first 6 months of this year and the first 10 months of last year. I generate enough surplus electricity from my grid tied solar electric system to cancel out my hookup fee most of the year.

Not at generating 100% of usage as noted.

Outside the box
 

Storage of energy can take many forms other than batteries. For example if you are on a well as I am, additional pressure tanks can store pressurized water when the sun is shining (or wind is blowing) so you don't have to draw grid power when it's not.
Heat and cold are easy to store and cheap to store. Put in several hot water heaters, well insulated, and when you have power, heat water. Likewise engineered fluids are capable of storing large amounts of energy due to "heat of fusion". It takes many many times more energy to make the transition from solid to liquid or liquid to solid than what is required merely to raise water one degree F. We are all familiar with "blue ice". There are other fluids engineered to freeze and thaw at various favorable temps. Run your refrigeration system when you have power from your home system to freeze an engineered fluid. That fluid could greatly reduce the grid power usage of your refrigeration system.
Refrigeration and air conditioning are the largest power usages in your home........ and of course electric water heaters, and electric heating systems. (go to gas...it's a lot cheaper).
My monthly power bill runs about $35.00, and would be significantly cheaper if I didn't run 7 27" computer monitors in my stock trading system.
We all know the value of insulation, and of good windows, as well of properly shading windows to block thermal energy in the summer and allow it in in cold weather. Lots of natural lighting, windows and solar tubes............but most folks are working during the day, and home at night. Battery power and LED strip lighting makes sense for lighting, particularly if you have sensors that turn lights on when people are present in the room. It doesn't take much battery storage to handle lighting issues, and LED strips are typically 12V, and adhesive. They come in a reel and are inexpensive. Would make good indirect room lighting.

A penny saved is a penny earned............. The engineered fluids I mentioned earlier work for storing heat.......... Imagine having a container in the trunk of your car with a system that allowed exhaust heat to be used to melt an engineered "fluid" that "froze" at 150 deg F.............. Driving to work and back, you would capture wasted energy from your car............ Pack or pump into the home heating system and that waste heat could heat your home in the winter. Instead of worrying about MPG, worry about total dollars spent on transportation and heating............ Who really cares where the savings is?? 80% of our gasoline energy is going to waste......... as heat. Does it make sense to pump heat into the atmosphere and then burn gas or electricity to heat our homes?

Then there are a host of ways we can use solar heat energy directly........ from heating water to cooking food..............

Howard

We have a kilowatt solar grid tie setup. It knocks 50 bucks off the power bill in 9 months of the year. At times the power meter stops, sometimes rolls backwards. Its a hobby and started at 100 watts. :eek:

I was going to sell my setup a few years ago til I found how much my mother loved the fact it lowered the power bill. I kept it and added 300 watts in polycrystal panels and 2 mo 250 watt gtis. :thumbup:

Our power company charges a service fee and a per kw fee. If we used no power, we would still have a fee.

I don't use the electric furnace in my house, but in the summer I do that with my a/c. We have one bedroom (approximately 200sf.) that we don't use on a regular basis so I close the door, close and cover the air vent with a heavy book or other object to prevent air seepage and place towels between the bottom of the door and floor.

In the winter we use a Monitor 20K BTU thermostatically controlled vented kerosene heater to heat our home. I also keep that same bedroom closed off during the winter and cover all the air vents in the house to the electric heating/air duct with a piece of radiant barrier held down with magnets to keep the cold air from coming up into the house from the duct system which is routed underneath the house and keep from losing heat out through the duct work. This has been an unusually cold winter for us and since we started using heat around the middle of Oct. 2013 I've used about $500. worth of kerosene to heat about 1200sf our home to 68* during the daytime and 64* at night. Kerosene is $4.399 per gallon here so I've used just over 100 gallons so far this winter. I also had radiant barrier placed under the metal roof when the roof was replaced in 2011 which has helped with heating/cooling costs.

Do you have a link for your vented kero heater?

Monitor Heater
 

Here's a link to Monitor's homepage. Monitor Products I didn't check the web page, but there's probably contact information there for the company. If so contact them they should be able to give you information for one of their product distributors in your area or if you do a web search for "Monitor heaters" it might turn up someone in your area.

When I bought mine in 1996 I lived in NC, but when I moved from NC to KY in 2010 I removed the heater from the house there, covered the hole for the vent tube and brought it to KY with me since there are no dealers in this area.

Monitor has quit making the kerosene units, but they are still available from many suppliers. Since kerosene prices have increased over the last several years I suspect their sales were down on the kerosene units so they have gone to making a similar unit that operates on propane and from what I've heard and read they are very economical to operate as well.

If you buy one of their kerosene heaters new it will likely be a newer model than the one I'm currently using in my house and has a time/temperature selector you can set up to 4 different time/temperatures per day for a week in advance, so if your weekday and weekend schedule are different you can set it up accordingly.

The model number of mine is a 422 (20K BTU), the larger unit of that same era is a model 441 (40K BTU) which they claim will heat up to 2000sf and with the performance I've received with my 422 I have no reason to doubt it.

On account of parts availability I wouldn't recommend going with a unit any older than the 4 I mention in this post. Monitor is still making service parts for their kerosene units and are currently scheduled to make them though 2014, but I don't think even when they quit making the service parts they will be out of circulation for many years, my guess would be upward of 20 years or more because, some parts can still be found for their earliest models which I think were made in the 80's, but I'm not sure of the manufacture date on the first of their units.

My 422 is 18 years old, they discontinued that model several years ago and far as I know any replacement parts needed for it are still available.

The model numbers of the last of the kerosene units they made were the 2200 (20K BTU) and the 2400 (40K BTU).

If you can't get any information on the kerosene units and that's what you want send me a PM and I'll give you the information to a supplier I know about in NC where I bought my burn chamber rebuild kit from in 2012, they also sell new units.

You might also check eBay, often there will be used units on there that people are selling. Sometimes the eBay units are pretty nice looking units and sometimes they're pretty rough. I've also seen some suppliers selling new units on eBay.

My son bought a used unit (422) off of eBay a couple years ago for $500. + $50. shipping that had minimal usage in California. He had it shipped to my house and it looked and worked as good as new. We disconnected my Monitor and put his in it's place (about a 10 minute job) and ran it for a couple weeks to make sure it was going to run without any problems before drilling a hole in his wall to make the installation.

If you need/want more information feel free to send a PM, I'll be glad to help anyway I can.

I think I noticed you were from VA so I feel pretty confident there would be some dealers in your area.

Many people in the northeastern US and Alaska use the Monitor heaters because they are so efficient.

If you can't get information on or find a Monitor, Toyotomi still makes kerosene units and are very similar to the Monitor and have about the same efficiency rating. ToyotomiUSA - Homepage I'm not sure, but I think Rinnai may also make some kerosene units that are also very efficient. #1 Selling Tankless Water Heater in US | Rinnai

If you do buy one of these type heaters BE SURE TO UNPLUG IT DURING THE SPRING/SUMMER AND ANY OTHER TIME THERE ARE THUNDERSTORMS IN THE AREA. THERE ARE ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT BOARDS THAT ARE SENSITIVE TO CURRENT SPIKES AND ARE VERY EXPENSIVE TO REPLACE. I always unplug mine in the spring and leave it unplugged until fall of the year. If a thunderstorm with lightning involved comes up during the months it's plugged in I unplug it until the thunderstorms pass. My neighbor in NC left his plugged up year around, it got a surge from lightning one time which cost him about $600. in repairs and that was in the '90's or early '00's so who know what it would cost today.

Less than 10 hours left on this eBay auction of a Monitor 441 Monitor Heater 441 | eBay, if I contacted them and found the heater was in good working order and shipping costs weren't outrageous I'd say this would be a good deal if it goes for the opening bid cost of $650. or slightly over. If you were close enough to pick it up in person they're even including an outdoor 275 gallon tank and 40' of copper tubing to hook it up which I think is a great deal. I think they made that unit from about 1995-2000 so it's probably between 14 and 19 years old. This is the large unit that's capable of heating up to 2000sf and was about a $1300. unit new back in 1996 when I bought my 422. With the this model you do have to run it off of an outside fuel source, no capsule tank. The 422 can be run off of a 1.32 gallon capsule tank or it can be hooked up to an outside fuel source.

If anyone buys one of these heaters let me know, I have some valuable information I can pass on to you. It's the Monitor service manual that tells how to troubleshoot problems and gives all the electronic specifications for testing electronic components within the heater. Very few dealers will even sell a copy to Monitor owners, therefore it's nearly impossible to get your hands on, but I lucked up and found a PDF copy a couple years ago and saved it to my hard drive.

To the owner of this thread and other members, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread and when I started this reply I hadn't planned on writing a book, but it looks like I succeeded.

Hatman-I have precicely the dual-voltage system you envision...

A 2006 Jayco 29' Travel Trailer with both 110v and 12v circuitry, hookup to campground power and battery backup with built-in inverter. All I need to do is expand my battery pack from 1 to say, 6, add some Solar panels and go nuts on closed foam insulation, and i'm set-assuming the campground gives me the go-ahead to set up a stationary solar bank at the angle I want...also, the Propane heater array has this beautiful intake vent that will allow me to plug in one of my Soup Can Solar Thermal units directly into the existing heating ducts...

{What I will NOT have is the ability to sell back power-campgrounds just don't DO that. Also, I need to create another Soup Can Unit-the couple I sold my three bedroom, two bath house to were so impressed by my winter power usage they asked me to leave my mods (triple-wrapped pipes, dual Soup Can Units and bubble wrap on the already state-of-the-art windows...total cost of under $80 ) I recommended they visit this Forum of course...} :D

As to Grid-tie systems in general...i'm not impressed. Several neighbors (well former neighbors as of two weeks ago) spent roughly $40,000+ on the Grid-tie system, and while there was some reduction, the 'progressive' metering system of the Co-op meant that they paid more per KWH, much as I did with my more modest Eco-mods.In addition, they still lost power during a blackout. Two of my neighbors eventually upgraded an extra $20,000 in panels in order to push thier bills into modest returns-which won't pay for itself for nearly 18 years...my other neighbor spent an extra $35,000 to convert into a fully off-grid facility-she won't see a real profit either but feels beter knowing she can play host to her street in a emergency.

If I were going for an independent dual system like the one you described Hatman-i'd most likely try to place a few of my most vital system (say, fridge/freezer, water pump if you have a well, one string of lights, one 'special outlet' for a single 110/120V directly to the battery pack for one or two emergency plug-ins like electric heaters and a hot plate) on dual switches. If you could run a single circuit through a few vital systems-with switches to move those facilities from circuit A to circuit B-that would probably be the least invasive(and least expensive) approach. My new (to me) RV simply switches everything at once to battery if the power goes out-which is fine for a relatively small dwelling, but my refrigerator has a manual setting for triple use-Mains, Battery and Propane-which sort of illustrates what i'm rambling about...

I assume that you've already checked the guidelines in your State to see if you're allowed to do this (NC guidelines are one of the many reasons I sold my house in the first place-I do NOT like being told what I can do with my own property!!!). Failing that, I'm assuming you'll have the skillset you need to do the job yourself...best of luck.

BTW Ford Man-I love the idea of a 'safe' Kerosene heater, this is the first i've heard of it. I had a heater myself in case of winter blackout in my former home, but I dreaded the fumes...I would have had a woodstove myself but I wasn't willing to blow $7000+ on an electric fan insert, and NC wouldn't sign off on my $20 hand-made unit no matter how many times thier OWN INSPECTOR signed off the Safety Approval (yes my little feud has long-term roots...). Not to derail this Thread, but i'm curious as to your layout...do you have plenty of room facing the South, with two or more windows and room for some Thermal Mass tanks , either sand or water based? PM me, I may have some cheap ideas for you, and if you think they're worth it we'll start a different thread ( HINT: it involves Soupcan Thermal and transmission through coils snaking through Thermal Mass storage...)

I see Ford Man left the data I was looking for on the Kerosene unit while I struggled with my usual One-finger typing...thanks! :)

I added a little more VERY IMPORTANT information near the bottom of the post and an eBay auction of Monitor 441. Be sure to read it!!!

My front lawn is the south facing side of the house and the side of the house most of the windows are located in, so not a good idea unless the tanks would be underground.

Where are you located in NC? From 1987-2010 I lived in Mt. Pleasant, Cabarrus county NC (approximately 35 miles north of Charlotte).

If you are interested in one of the Monitor heaters send me a PM I can give you the name of a supplier in Hickory, NC.

The Monitor has an electronic igniter and small electric blower to help circulate the heat throughout the house so it can't be used during a power outage. At those times which as a normal rule are few and far between I rely on closely monitored portable kerosene units to keep from freezing to death.

I know all about those NC power outages, I lived there through Hugo in Sept. '89, 90MPH winds in Charlotte, 200 miles from the coast. I got up the next morning to go to work and every direction I went there were trees across the road within a mile of the house. At the time I was working construction and we were building a large church, approximately a $50 million job in Mathews, NC, one of the project superintendents told me the storm caused about $1 million in damages to what was already finished.

Ford Man-thanks for the link. Such a heater would have been fantastic in the old place,but since my RV in Newport NC runs dual Electric and Propane, it's no longer the issue that it was...still an awesome piece of tech though!

In my former house, my front yard was North, so my neighbors couldn't see my dual Solar Thermal units (not that they would have cared, they were cool that way). The units(old windowpane, plywood box, soupcan 'tubes' made with power drill, high temp gasket sealer and black BBQ paint, the usual) ran the heat through high temp hoses through blocks of SIP board (plywood w/ closed cell foam) acting as window blocks. The ends of the hoses turned up, and leather 'caps' riveted into place on one end, made a one-way valve to prevent heat loss at night.

If I had kept the house, my next step would have been to build a plywood-box 'shelf' running 8" wide, as tall as the windowsill in order to blend with the decor, and the length of the kitchen (Unit A) and the Office (Unit B) and decorated to match the walls. The windows would have been unblocked and closed, permanent mounting points would have been made through the wall and into the boxes, and the hoses lengthened and filled with tiny holes.Each box would have a length of hose, 6" of sand and another fold of hose until the box was full-then covered.From then on the Thermal boxes would leak hot air into the sand for a slower, steadier heat and a longer retention of same for those cold nights. In the summer, the units would disconnect, caps would be fitted and the sand would simply be additional insulation-which would assist the AC.

Alas, I sold the place and purchased the RV a few weeks ago...since the new owners liked the Thermal Units so much, I left them installed, showed them where the Food Dehydrator/Solar Slow Cooker unit was(powered by the Units in Summer when disconnected) and left them my blueprints for the Sand Walls...so who knows, maybe the new owners will create them, if not for their new house perhaps for a Greenhouse they were thinking about.

Back to Hat_man's project though...I keep hearing about the development of IR Photvoltaic panels which can continue to generate power(albeit at a reduced rate) at night-but for some reason the availability seems to remain 'just around the corner' and has been so for about two years now :( If anybody could get ahold of these-even at greater cost-we would be looking at a real game-changer here...constant power generation (full by day and partial at night) would reduced battery anxiety for any installation and reduce the need for secondary power sources as the IR function would keep PV from being useless on cloudy days.

Also-have any other Forum members installed battery-only circuits in a pre-wired, On-the-grid house? If so, i'd like to hear your results.

Order99, I'm not sure whether there are any topics that might interest you on this forum or not, but I've found it quite helpful for Monitor heater owners. Very few forums I've found have anything at all about Monitor heaters, but this one has it's own Monitor sub forum in the heating section. I can't remember whether there are any topics on alternative power sources or not that might interest you. Home Repair Forum - Helping you with your home repairs for the past 10 years My user name there is FordMan59. There's one member and moderator of the forum there HayZee518 that's pretty knowledgeable that might be able to give you some assistance, but let me warn you sometimes he comes off a little rude with some of his replies. Still all in all I think he's a pretty smart man and when I had to do the burn chamber rebuild in my 422 in 2012 for the first time he gave me some very helpful information. He also has a Monitor and seems to have pretty much learned it inside and out.